Do you retain rights to bring dependent Family later ?

[tebee]

I'm English with a Thai wife, and I am currently self-employed in France. We have the possibility of some well-paid work back in the UK and obviously I could bring my wife back with me as a returning EEA national.

But I have a Step-son currently at medical collage back in Thailand, who will not be qualified for another 3 years. The plan was to bring him over here as a dependant relative then.

If we do move back to the UK, can I use the EEA rights at a future date to get him a family permit or does it need to be done at the time we move ?

[tebee]

I'm a British National living in France, with a Chinese born wife who holds a French residence card marked family of EU citizen.

I may need to return to the UK for a family emergency the next couple of weeks and would dearly like to bring my wife along to meet my relatives.

What's the chances of her being able to enter with the residence permit, as I don't think we will have time to apply for a family permit? I know she should be allowed, but I also know the UK and the operator do refuse people.

We will be traveling by ferry Brittany to Portsmouth as foot passengers if we go.

[Jambo]

How long have you been living in France? Over 6 months ?

You should be fine if you gets to Portsmouth. You might have difficulties with the ferry company to board without a visa.
You might find this post relevant - Singh to Portsmouth.

[tebee]

I've been in France for 10 years and not ever returned for a visit to the UK for the last 8 years , so I think I may just qualify there - I am self-employed here.

The main worry I have is if they will let us on the ferry.

[Jambo]

Call Portsmouth immigration in advance to get their approval / advice. Arrive early to the port with plenty of time to argue your case. Ask the ferry company to call Portsmouth immigration office.

[tebee]

I'm British, have been living and running a business in France for 8 years. My wife is chinese and holds a French residence card as Family of an EU citizen.

We are contemplating return to the UK to take over the family business of an elderly relative who is no longer capable of running it himself.

We did plan on doing a quick trip over by ferry this weekend without UK visa, but managed to both pick up a chest infection on holiday in Holland, so decided that visiting already rather sick and frail relative was not the best idea. However the current crisis in his health is now over so we have a little more time and are thinking about doing it the official way.

As I understand it my wife would need to apply for a family permit under the Surinder Singh rule, but on looking at the UK immigration site I see no way of applying for this? Or do we just tell them she has a French residence card and ask for a FP under EU regulations ?

[Jambo]

Just follow the instructions here - https://www.gov.uk/family-permit

It doesn't say so but this is also for Surinder Singh cases.

It also depends where you live. Sometimes it would be more convenient sorting it out at the border than visiting the British consulate.

[toofan]

if you are somewhere close to claise etc where you can get on a ferry try that way it will save time and travel cost to embassy if you are far than apply fp

[tebee]

I'm British, but have lived in France 10 years , for the last 4 have had my own business here. Have a non-EU wife and step son who have 5 year visa here. No property in UK , but 4 here ( we let out 3 )

I'm contemplating using the Surinder Singh Route to return to the UK next year, but am a little bit worried that something I've done might possibly mess with the centre of life requirements as defined ( probably illegally anyway) by UK immigration.

My life is complicated enough already, but for the last year or so I've been having to return to the UK to help run the business of member of my extended family. He's 72 and just had cancer, is trying to sell the business, but it makes no money, has not been able to pay his salary recently, but owns freehold premises worth around £400,000. Offer coming in for it have been considerably less than even the building valuation and he has 12 staff who depend on it.

I own him some big favours , as he helped me out when my mother was dying of cancer and sadly none of his immediate family have any interest in it.

As it's messing up my own business to a certain extent, we are thinking that the way out of this is to buy it ourselves and move back to the UK, as this also solves the problem of my wife not being able to work in France due to her qualifications not being recognized.

But I'm now wondering if spending time back in the UK is going to be counted against me as regards centre of life. I was there several times last year, at one point for over 3 months. As I'm diabetic I re-registered with the NHS while I was over there and I also renewed my UK driving licence as I turned 60 during the year. I was being paid expenses as an independent consultant, but not a salary when I was there( business couldn't have afforded it anyway!) I continued to run my French based business from there ( it's internet based, so fairly portable)

So will any of this count against me ? Should I stay away from the UK for several months before I return properly ?

[tebee]

We are possibly using ‎Surinder Singh to return to the UK next year from France. My wife and step-son both 5 year French residence cards issued under article 10.

But my step-son's one was issued on the basis he was a dependant relative as he was still finishing university. By the time we move back he will be over 21 and hopefully working.

So what happens when he applies for his EEA2 ? he is no longer my dependant relative. He's not been in France 5 years yet,so not got residence rights in his own , so if I leave France would not be able to remain here. Does the fact that he currently holds a RC entitle him to a UK one ? or is he in limbo somewhere?

[tebee]

We are thinking of using Surinder Singh to return to the UK soon, when my stepson finishes university. Both he and my wife current have 5 year article 10 RCs from France and I've lived here for over 10 years so center of life should not be a problem.

I'm wondering what evidence we will need to show to prove my stepson as a dependant relative? He's 24 now, but for the last 6 years has been at university, though I've only been married to his mother for 4 of those years.

Asked Solvit about this and their reply was to make sure I got a FP before returning to the UK which seems spectacularly useless advice as we have already traveled twice to the UK on just his article 10 card - I can't see what the FP would gain?

He will probably start working in UK before going into further training so after we get there will no longer be a dependant - or would he be better getting a non-paying intern job until his rc is sorted out?

[noajthan]

We are thinking of using Surinder Singh to return to the UK soon, when my stepson finishes university. Both he and my wife current have 5 year article 10 RCs from France and I've lived here for over 10 years so center of life should not be a problem.

I'm wondering what evidence we will need to show to prove my stepson as a dependant relative? He's 24 now, but for the last 6 years has been at university, though I've only been married to his mother for 4 of those years.

...

He will probably start working in UK before going into further training so after we get there will no longer be a dependant - or would he be better getting a non-paying intern job until his rc is sorted out?

Suggest start here with HO guidance - it will help you get in the mind of a caseworker assessing the case:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf
- see page 17+

Once in UK, EU case law says a dependent may work. Poverty is not compulsory.
On the other hand, even if qualified & capable of working a dependent is not 'compelled' to work - this is not about 'workfare'.

[tebee]

Looking at that guidance he will need to remain a dependant relative when we come to the UK. I'm unsure what happens if he ceases to be a dependant relative after we arrive.

Is there a time he must remain a dependant relative before he starts to look for work to get his RC? What happens if he wants to apply for PR after 5 years but is no longer a dependant at that time?

[tebee]

We are planning on returning to the UK using Surinder Singh - My family already have Article 10 cards.

Am I right in thinking the UK RCs they get will also be Article 10 ones - rather than UK immigration's own cards even though I am British?

Is significant to us as we have French property we intend to retain.

[vinny]

I think so, as they may apply for RCs.

(4) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of P, P is to be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.

[Obie]

23.However, this case is concerned not with a right under national law but with the rights of movement and establishment granted to a Community national by Articles 48 and 52 of the Treaty. These rights cannot be fully effective if such a person may be deterred from exercising them by obstacles raised in his or her country of origin to the entry and residence of his or her spouse. Accordingly, when a Community national who has availed himself or herself of those rights returns to his or her country of origin, his or her spouse must enjoy at least the same rights of entry and residence as would be granted to him or her under Community law if his or her spouse chose to enter and reside in another Member State. Nevertheless, Articles 48 and 52 of the Treaty do not prevent Member States from applying to foreign spouses of their own nationals rules on entry and residence more favourable than those provided for by Community law.

[noajthan]

We are planning on returning to the UK using Surinder Singh - My family already have Article 10 cards.

Am I right in thinking the UK RCs they get will also be Article 10 ones - rather than UK immigration's own cards even though I am British?

Is significant to us as we have French property we intend to retain.

No, my understanding is that UK-issued RCs are not Article 10 cards.
Very happy to be corrected - in the usual ImmigrationBoards way.

[secret.simon]

Tricky one that.

I would have thought that as the Residence Cards are being issued under the Surinder Singh route and therefore under EU law, they would be Article 10 Residence Cards.

But Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC states (emphasis mine);

The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application.

But Section 9 of the EEA Regulations 2006 states;

9.—(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who is the family member of a British citizen as if the British citizen (“P”) were an EEA national.
(2) The conditions are that–
(a) P is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom;
(b) if the family member of P is P’s spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in the EEA State before the British citizen returned to the United Kingdom; and
(c) the centre of P’s life has transferred to the EEA State where P resided as a worker or self-employed person.
(3) Factors relevant to whether the centre of P’s life has transferred to another EEA State include–
(a) the period of residence in the EEA State as a worker or self-employed person;
(b) the location of P’s principal residence;
(c) the degree of integration of P in the EEA State.
(4) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of P, P is to be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for the purposes of the application of regulation 13 to that family member

That suggests that a British citizen returning under Surinder Singh is treated fully as a non-British EEA citizen for the purposes of the application of the Residence Cards for his family members and therefore they should be issued Article 10 Residence Cards.

[noajthan]

...No, my understanding is that UK-issued RCs are not Article 10 cards.
Very happy to be corrected - in the usual ImmigrationBoards way.

I was going by an understanding based on this:

However, note that residence permits issued under national immigration law to the family members of EU citizens living in their country of nationality will not benefit from this exemption. Such family members will still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the UK even when accompanying or joining their EU relative in the UK.

https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/eu-rights-clin ... pril-2015/

So based on simon's references it appears returning Singh-ers may indeed get a different type of RC.

That suggests that a British citizen returning under Surinder Singh is treated fully as a non-British EEA citizen for the purposes of the application of the Residence Cards for his family members and therefore they should be issued Article 10 Residence Cards.

(my emphasis on 'should')

[vinny]

...
If the conditions above are met, the family member of the British citizen will be treated as the family member of an EEA national for the purposes of the regulations.

[Obie]

The right under Surinder Singh derives from EU law.

Surinder singh in principle do not derive from secondary legislation , but from the treaty.

In light of the treaty right of the returning national to return to her country of nationality, and to ensure that her treaty rights are not undermined, the court said they must enjoy similar right as the one they would have enjoyed or had enjoyed in the other state from which the returning national has returned.