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Nope, you are practically embodying the principle of free movement of labour.nt16 wrote:However, seeing that I will be working for the same company but in Netherlands, although getting paid over there in the bank account and paying taxes locally, would that pose an issue?
Thanks Simon for your response. Yes of course the letter from the company would not indicate anything to do with 3 months but a permanent move.secret.simon wrote: Nope, you are practically embodying the principle of free movement of labour.
So long as you have moved the center of your life lock, stock and barrel to the Netherlands, you will be fine.
If it is possible, try to get a long term transfer to the Netherlands. A three month transfer may make the Home Office argue that you have not moved the center of your life. A permanent transfer on paper sounds better.
Yes, I am planning to do all that it takes to integrate as much as possible, whether its bank accounts, long tenancy, gym membership, exchange of drivers license etc. I have no house in the UK or no other attachments except the current job.secret.simon wrote:
Once you are there, show that you have taken proactive steps to integrate with Dutch life, by taking Dutch language courses, for instance.
I will leave it to others to comment on this specific point of EU law, but I believe (I could be wrong) "members of the household of the Union citizen" means the household you are responsible for i.e. one that you head, not just a household that you were a member of at some point in the past.nt16 wrote:However the point in question is:
"(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;"
And if you notice there is an or condition which indicates there is no need to prove dependency for the member of the same household?
Or I am reading it wrong?
and35. We observe that in some parts of the judgments in KG and Bigia dependency and membership of the household are treated together but as we read the Directive they are alternatives with materially different requirements.
Membership of the household must be the Union citizen’s household while dependency can either be on the Union citizen or his or her non national spouse.
We recognise that membership of the household requires at least a physical cohabitation under the same space.
14. However, the requirement of pre-admission dependency or membership of the household is indicated by Article 10 of the Directive that provides:
“1. The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately.
2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;
(d) in cases falling under points (c) and (d) of Article 2(2), documentary evidence that conditions laid down therein are met;
(e) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(a), a document issued by the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from which they are arriving certifying that they are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen, or proof of the existence of serious health grounds which strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen
Ref: https://asadakhan.wordpress.com/2011/10 ... y-members/(iv) Membership of a household has the meaning set out in KG (Sri Lanka) and Bigia & Ors;
that is to say it imports living for some period of time under the roof of a household that can be said to be that of the EEA national for a time when he or she had such nationality. That necessarily requires that whilst in possession of such nationality the family member has lived somewhere in the world in the same country as the EEA national, but not necessarily in an EEA state.
btw the embassy appears to be in error here.nt16 wrote:...
I am also currently battling with the local consulate in Zambia, there is no Dutch consulate but there is Swedish consulate who cater for other EU territories including NL so I contacted them to ensure if I will be able to apply for such a visa for my mother. They are looking for me to prove financial dependency quoting article 3.2(a) and for me to show that I will need her to provide bank statements. However the point in question is:
"(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;"
And if you notice there is an or condition which indicates there is no need to prove dependency for the member of the same household?
Or I am reading it wrong?
Thanks for your assistance.
@noajthan, I was just about to write that reading the cases above. They should be applying article 2(2) here and not 3.2(a). Unless if it was my sister or brother who will then be classed as beneficiaries under 3.2(a).noajthan wrote: btw the embassy appears to be in error here.
Article 3(2) is for any other family members.
A mother is a direct family member (in ascending line) and so Article 2(2) applies to her.
Or are you trying to invoke Article 3(2) in terms of 'household' because mom is not a dependent a la 2(2) but is (or was) a member of your household as per 3(2)?
Here again it uses the word dependent and the question comes back to how do you show dependency?the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
Reading the directive further points 5 and 6 seem to indicate that family members defined in article 2.2 automatically enjoy the right of residence.the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
Remittances can be one form of demonstrating your support & recipient's dependency obviously.nt16 wrote:...
@noajthan, I was just about to write that reading the cases above. They should be applying article 2(2) here and not 3.2(a). Unless if it was my sister or brother who will then be classed as beneficiaries under 3.2(a).
However, reading article 2.2 it says:
Here again it uses the word dependent and the question comes back to how do you show dependency?the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
@noajthan thanks for the response. I have been sending her money so have the remittances to show that as she is wholly financially dependent upon me and is a widow.noajthan wrote:
Remittances can be one form of demonstrating your support & recipient's dependency obviously.
There is emotional dependency too.
It does not list any documentation because the documentation is self-evident from the description.nt16 wrote:However, I was just curious as all that I have read around this does not mention that any document related to dependency should be shown for family members.
+1secret.simon wrote:It does not list any documentation because the documentation is self-evident from the description.nt16 wrote:However, I was just curious as all that I have read around this does not mention that any document related to dependency should be shown for family members.
So, for instance, to prove that somebody is your spouse, you need to show a marriage certificate (with appropriate translations and apostilles if required). It is not listed in the Directive, but how would you prove that the person is your spouse otherwise?
Similarly, for your dependent parent, you need your birth certificate (which proves that the person is your parent) and relevant bank statements (which prove dependency).
@noajthan, @secret.simonnoajthan wrote:+1secret.simon wrote:It does not list any documentation because the documentation is self-evident from the description.nt16 wrote:However, I was just curious as all that I have read around this does not mention that any document related to dependency should be shown for family members.
So, for instance, to prove that somebody is your spouse, you need to show a marriage certificate (with appropriate translations and apostilles if required). It is not listed in the Directive, but how would you prove that the person is your spouse otherwise?
Similarly, for your dependent parent, you need your birth certificate (which proves that the person is your parent) and relevant bank statements (which prove dependency).
So you don't need a philosophical debate with the embassy - just quote Article 2(2) & Article 10 at them & provide appropriate docs.
It may help if mom has corresponding bank statements, receipts, money transfer chits & etc to correspond with the remittances you have remitted.
Plus any bills you may have paid for her.
Issues: not if you satisfy the centre of life test - as you will have to.nt16 wrote:...
@noajthan, @secret.simon
Fair points. Thanks for your help and clarification on this.
As for me moving to NL to work for my UK company, you dont think there should be an issue here with UK HO upon my return.
I am also thinking of returning with them without applying for a FP rather just arrive at the airport as the advantage of in country appeal is hugely appealing.
Any suggestions or pointers on this would be appreciated.
Yes aware of that but I assume any changes to the EU law would take months.noajthan wrote:Issues: not if you satisfy the centre of life test - as you will have to.nt16 wrote:...
@noajthan, @secret.simon
Fair points. Thanks for your help and clarification on this.
As for me moving to NL to work for my UK company, you dont think there should be an issue here with UK HO upon my return.
I am also thinking of returning with them without applying for a FP rather just arrive at the airport as the advantage of in country appeal is hugely appealing.
Any suggestions or pointers on this would be appreciated.
Don't forget this is a hot potato at the moment even though DC didn't specifically mention little old ladies in his pronouncements - just foreign spouses.
Even if i show them the EU directive?noajthan wrote:
You won't get on a UK-bound plane without a FP.
You could try ferry &/or bus perhaps.
Triple decker high speed trains!! Thats it. I am sold.noajthan wrote:
(Wait until you see their triple-decker high-speed trains, with auto-retracting steps).
I won't name names in order to protect the innocent but members have reported difficulties with certain, ahem, budget airline personnel when trying to fly in to UK with family without a visa.nt16 wrote:Even if i show them the EU directive?noajthan wrote:
You won't get on a UK-bound plane without a FP.
You could try ferry &/or bus perhaps.
Perhaps take a ferry into calais. Recently We had candy2012 who travelled with his mother from Germany to CTA, not sure how he travelled but he did it without FP.
Triple decker high speed trains!! Thats it. I am sold.noajthan wrote:
(Wait until you see their triple-decker high-speed trains, with auto-retracting steps).
Partially funded, I am sure, by profits made by its UK arm, Abellio.noajthan wrote:When I say triple-decker I suppose I mean 3-level (not as high as a 3-storey house). Impressive running stock and rail system all the same.
Surely there is no need to be coy in naming Flylo, though I understand you could also be referring to Our Lady Air.noajthan wrote:I won't name names in order to protect the innocent but members have reported difficulties with certain, ahem, budget airline personnel when trying to fly in to UK with family without a visa.
I understand the airlines are not going to have an idea about the EU law. Will need to perhaps take a bus or a ferry route.secret.simon wrote:
Get an FP if you are flying with them.
With a FP they will let you board the plane and you will get entry to the UKnt16 wrote:I understand the airlines are not going to have an idea about the EU law. Will need to perhaps take a bus or a ferry route.secret.simon wrote:
Get an FP if you are flying with them.
Hi HamzaHamza2013 wrote:Hi nt16,
I am in similar situation working for UK company in Eire, make sure you declare yourself with HM revenue using P85 as you are working abroad, this will change your tax code a you will be paying take in NL. With regards to dependency for my parents financial receipts of payments to them were enough, I keep you posted with progress and please do same, Thanks
secret.simon / noajthan,
We have house in uk but it is rented, I hope this will not create any problem for us if we move back, Thanks
Will have my wife and mother with me.Hamza2013 wrote:Hi nt16,
You would need a bit longer to show transfer of life scenerio, I assume you have moved with all ur family as this will make your case stronger. We are waiting for residence card at the moment,