Employee's Hour

[Ibrahimbr]

Hi Friends,

I applied Ent. Visa of £50K in July 2013 and got it in June 2014. My Brother is on ILR visa and he is my employee since September 2014. Business is being run genuinely. My Brother is doing 24.5 hours per week. He has worked 1854 hours in 18 or 19 months ( From Sep. 2014 to Now ).
My question is.....what will be the calculation of above mentioned hours? Can we say one full time job has been covered by 1854 hours of my brother? I have to apply for extension in June 2017.
Please can you give your views accordting to HO policy. Please remember i applied in 2013 when one employe can cover two employees if he works for two year.

Thanks.

Regards,
XYZ

[seasky]

You need 30hrs per week or as my understanding it doesn't count. As your brother is your sole employee expect serious scrutiny on genuine entrepreneurs test.

I have no comment on your case specifically but HO might think that meeting the employment criteria with your brother only is a sham. Does your brother get paid min wage or highly above? Is your brother employed elsewhere as well?

[zimba]

Hi Friends,

I applied Ent. Visa of £50K in July 2013 and got it in June 2014. My Brother is on ILR visa and he is my employee since September 2014. Business is being run genuinely. My Brother is doing 24.5 hours per week. He has worked 1854 hours in 18 or 19 months ( From Sep. 2014 to Now ).
My question is.....what will be the calculation of above mentioned hours? Can we say one full time job has been covered by 1854 hours of my brother? I have to apply for extension in June 2017.
Please can you give your views accordting to HO policy. Please remember i applied in 2013 when one employe can cover two employees if he works for two year.

Thanks.

Regards,
XYZ

Part time employees will be counted as long as you add their work hours to reach min of 30 hours per week (equivalent of a full time) worker.

[seasky]

Hi Friends,

I applied Ent. Visa of £50K in July 2013 and got it in June 2014. My Brother is on ILR visa and he is my employee since September 2014. Business is being run genuinely. My Brother is doing 24.5 hours per week. He has worked 1854 hours in 18 or 19 months ( From Sep. 2014 to Now ).
My question is.....what will be the calculation of above mentioned hours? Can we say one full time job has been covered by 1854 hours of my brother? I have to apply for extension in June 2017.
Please can you give your views accordting to HO policy. Please remember i applied in 2013 when one employe can cover two employees if he works for two year.

Thanks.

Regards,
XYZ

Part time employees will be counted as long as you add their work hours to reach min of 30 hours per week (equivalent of a full time) worker.

Zimba, my understanding is he had 1 employee working 24.5hrs per week and the questions is can you add up all the hours, divide by 30 to figure out the 'person weeks' employed? or does all the 24.5hr go to waste. I know the other way around does not work e.g. if you employ for 45hoursPW you don't consider it 1.5 weeks, it's only a single week.

[zimba]

Zimba, my understanding is he had 1 employee working 24.5hrs per week and the questions is can you add up all the hours, divide by 30 to figure out the 'person weeks' employed? or does all the 24.5hr go to waste. I know the other way around does not work e.g. if you employ for 45hoursPW you don't consider it 1.5 weeks, it's only a single week.

The hours created must be at least 1560 to be counted as a full time job (1560/52 = 30) but extra hours beyond 30 per week will be ignored.
My understanding is that if you hire someone with 24.5 hours/week for more than a year (lets say 65 weeks) then you have enough hours (more than min 1560) but obviously you will NOT hit the min 30 hours per week requirement, so the job will not be counted as Full time even though you have the hours !

[aby00156]

The hours created must be at least 1560 to be counted as a full time job (1560/52 = 30) but extra hours beyond 30 per week will be ignored.
My understanding is that if you hire someone with 24.5 hours/week for more than a year (lets say 65 weeks) then you have enough hours (more than min 1560) but obviously you will NOT hit the min 30 hours per week requirement, so the job will not be counted as Full time even though you have the hours !

Zimba88 is right.
The guidance is pretty clear on this.
The total hours considered for one full time employment is 1560 hours per year or 30 Hours per week.
you can employ 1 employee for 30 hours per week or 2 part time employees which both together make 30hours per week.

[Ibrahimbr]

You need 30hrs per week or as my understanding it doesn't count. As your brother is your sole employee expect serious scrutiny on genuine entrepreneurs test.

I have no comment on your case specifically but HO might think that meeting the employment criteria with your brother only is a sham. Does your brother get paid min wage or highly above? Is your brother employed elsewhere as well?

My Brother is Self Employed as well. There is no law which tells that you can not hire you family member in employement. Policy also does not say anything about it. He is getting pay from business account each month with payslip. Business is genuinely being run and business statement shows it that a business is gunuine. Your point is valid HO may Have scrutiny but at the end it is not in law.
So your point of view 24.5 Hours per week will be considered paet time whether i applied visa in 2013 or after 6 April 2014?

[seasky]

You need 30hrs per week or as my understanding it doesn't count. As your brother is your sole employee expect serious scrutiny on genuine entrepreneurs test.

I have no comment on your case specifically but HO might think that meeting the employment criteria with your brother only is a sham. Does your brother get paid min wage or highly above? Is your brother employed elsewhere as well?

My Brother is Self Employed as well. There is no law which tells that you can not hire you family member in employement. Policy also does not say anything about it. He is getting pay from business account each month with payslip. Business is genuinely being run and business statement shows it that a business is gunuine. Your point is valid HO may Have scrutiny but at the end it is not in law.
So your point of view 24.5 Hours per week will be considered paet time whether i applied visa in 2013 or after 6 April 2014?

Since the introduction of genuine entrepreneurs test there is a level of subjectivity that didn't exist before (and this test was added because of abuse of the entrepreneurs visa). As such just being 'in the law' is not enough. Prima facie you have one single employee who is your brother (I am assuming min wage? because otherwise you could 'adapt' the hours?), who happens to have another job. That is clearly clearly suspicious as if just meant to fulfil the checkbox. What I am telling you is to help you, you will have to make a strong case that this is all genuine (example what customers and contracts you have) in a strong covering letter.

From what Zimba and aby said I could not understand what is their conclusion. Are you ok or not?
Zimba: "so the job will not be counted as Full time even though you have the hours !"
aby: "you can employ 1 employee for 30 hours per week or 2 part time employees which both together make 30hours per week." but you don't have a second employee to fill up to 30....

[zimba]

From what Zimba and aby said I could not understand what is their conclusion. Are you ok or not?Zimba: "so the job will not be counted as Full time even though you have the hours !"
aby: "you can employ 1 employee for 30 hours per week or 2 part time employees which both together make 30hours per week." but you don't have a second employee to fill up to 30....

Given the job evidence above, my understanding is that a full time job has not been created as I gave the exact details why.
FYI HO will not investigate and scrutinize every application as that is not feasible at all. The test was introduced to enable HO to interview or ask for more evidence during extension/ILR if something is really suspicious. That does not means all applicants will be investigated and scrutinized.

[Ibrahimbr]

Thanks for your reply. When i register company. I told company house i am director and my brother will be secratery in my company. He was in from day one.

[seasky]

Thanks for your reply. When i register company. I told company house i am director and my brother will be secratery in my company. He was in from day one.

Ibrahim,

It does not help to convince yourself or the board. You have to convince the HO, focus on that. Zimba correctly says they do not scrutinize every application. Even you agreed above your case is 'suspicious' so high chances you will be scrutinized.

It seems you have a bigger problem that your employment of only one employee part time does not fulfill the employment minimums at all.

[Ibrahimbr]

Thanks for your reply. When i register company. I told company house i am director and my brother will be secratery in my company. He was in from day one.

Ibrahim,

It does not help to convince yourself or the board. You have to convince the HO, focus on that. Zimba correctly says they do not scrutinize every application. Even you agreed above your case is 'suspicious' so high chances you will be scrutinized.

It seems you have a bigger problem that your employment of only one employee part time does not fulfill the employment minimums at all.

I just shared my views and requested to your views. I know at the end HO is important to be convinced. I have still 14 months. I will hire two more employes part time and full time. I spoke with consultant he said may be they go on credibility but when case goes in front of Judge he has to decide on law. He said there is no law which says you can not have you family member as a employee. When I registered my company with company house. I told I am director and my brother is secretory in my business. My Business is " Energy Consultancy and services ". My brother is also energy assessor and well qualified for me. Anyway thanks for your guys. You guys just considering post 6 April 2014 policy but pre April 2014 says any applicant who has applied before before 6 April 2014 can have one employee for two years. If one employee completes two years he has fulfilled two jobs requirement. That time hours were considered but I will have one full time and one part time employe just to avoid any confusion.
Thanks Again.

[seasky]

I just shared my views and requested to your views. I know at the end HO is important to be convinced. I have still 14 months. I will hire two more employes part time and full time. I spoke with consultant he said may be they go on credibility but when case goes in front of Judge he has to decide on law. He said there is no law which says you can not have you family member as a employee. When I registered my company with company house. I told I am director and my brother is secretory in my business. My Business is " Energy Consultancy and services ". My brother is also energy assessor and well qualified for me. Anyway thanks for your guys. You guys just considering post 6 April 2014 policy but pre April 2014 says any applicant who has applied before before 6 April 2014 can have one employee for two years. If one employee completes two years he has fulfilled two jobs requirement. That time hours were considered but I will have one full time and one part time employe just to avoid any confusion.
Thanks Again.

I think you are missing a point. "The law" allows the HO office to -subjectively- decide you are not a genuine entrepreneur (I have no idea what appeals and reviews are allowed when they decide this....). The fact it is your brother just raises the suspicion (but I agree is allowed as an employee)

BTW is the typical wage for an energy assessor the minimum wage? Doesn't sound like it.... (hence again signalling this arrangement with your brother was -possibly- artificial)


Whichever consultant you now talked to I hope it's not the same one that 'allowed' you to employ your brother for less than 30h/week, seems that is completely wasted vis-a-vis extension.

[Ibrahimbr]

I just shared my views and requested to your views. I know at the end HO is important to be convinced. I have still 14 months. I will hire two more employes part time and full time. I spoke with consultant he said may be they go on credibility but when case goes in front of Judge he has to decide on law. He said there is no law which says you can not have you family member as a employee. When I registered my company with company house. I told I am director and my brother is secretory in my business. My Business is " Energy Consultancy and services ". My brother is also energy assessor and well qualified for me. Anyway thanks for your guys. You guys just considering post 6 April 2014 policy but pre April 2014 says any applicant who has applied before before 6 April 2014 can have one employee for two years. If one employee completes two years he has fulfilled two jobs requirement. That time hours were considered but I will have one full time and one part time employe just to avoid any confusion.
Thanks Again.

I think you are missing a point. "The law" allows the HO office to -subjectively- decide you are not a genuine entrepreneur (I have no idea what appeals and reviews are allowed when they decide this....). The fact it is your brother just raises the suspicion (but I agree is allowed as an employee)

BTW is the typical wage for an energy assessor the minimum wage? Doesn't sound like it.... (hence again signalling this arrangement with your brother was -possibly- artificial)
Top UK Energy companies of my field paying £17500 per year with 38 to 40 hours. According to pay he is getting the same or a bit high as compare to market. If I hire two more employees with my brother then will it be suspicion......?
Thanks for feedback.

Whichever consultant you now talked to I hope it's not the same one that 'allowed' you to employ your brother for less than 30h/week, seems that is completely wasted vis-a-vis extension.

[seasky]

I just shared my views and requested to your views. I know at the end HO is important to be convinced. I have still 14 months. I will hire two more employes part time and full time. I spoke with consultant he said may be they go on credibility but when case goes in front of Judge he has to decide on law. He said there is no law which says you can not have you family member as a employee. When I registered my company with company house. I told I am director and my brother is secretory in my business. My Business is " Energy Consultancy and services ". My brother is also energy assessor and well qualified for me. Anyway thanks for your guys. You guys just considering post 6 April 2014 policy but pre April 2014 says any applicant who has applied before before 6 April 2014 can have one employee for two years. If one employee completes two years he has fulfilled two jobs requirement. That time hours were considered but I will have one full time and one part time employe just to avoid any confusion.
Thanks Again.

I think you are missing a point. "The law" allows the HO office to -subjectively- decide you are not a genuine entrepreneur (I have no idea what appeals and reviews are allowed when they decide this....). The fact it is your brother just raises the suspicion (but I agree is allowed as an employee)

BTW is the typical wage for an energy assessor the minimum wage? Doesn't sound like it.... (hence again signalling this arrangement with your brother was -possibly- artificial)
Top UK Energy companies of my field paying £17500 per year with 38 to 40 hours. According to pay he is getting the same or a bit high as compare to market. If I hire two more employees with my brother then will it be suspicion......?
Thanks for feedback.

Whichever consultant you now talked to I hope it's not the same one that 'allowed' you to employ your brother for less than 30h/week, seems that is completely wasted vis-a-vis extension.

If you hire two more people it will be much less suspicious, but I would expect scrutiny. IMHO I would expect scrutiny in in applications that are minimum hours/minimum wage. Again scrutiny does not mean you will fail, but if you are doing this artificially one might do the minimum required (as opposed to try and grow a thriving business which is the point of the Ent visa).

Explain strongly and well in covering letter the business to minimize concerns.

Side note 1: If I paid my brother the minimum wage or anything near it my mom would kill me
Side note 2: As I have voiced elsewhere on this board if I was a policy maker I would not allow minimum wage employees to be considered for extension (I would say 2X minimum and 2.5X average across your employees). the UK does not need more minimum wage jobs. Saying that I don't make policy and on this board I try to offer help when I can.

[Mrchaany]

Dear seasky

Now you are crossing the your limits, 2k wages and minimum wages come on leave him along, too much you are not home office representative,

how can home office now that he employee his brother regardless himself.

one other thing, tier 1 entrepreneur genuine test is for not minimum wages etc, it is when the applicant company exist, is he/she still the director of the company, current appointment letter, two employees date of starts and their status, company annual accounts and an accountant letter, business bank statement, business register address, hmrc annual tax (Corporation tax). ETC.

Regards
I K

[seasky]

Dear seasky

Now you are crossing the your limits, 2k wages and minimum wages come on leave him along, too much you are not home office representative,

how can home office now that he employee his brother regardless himself.

one other thing, tier 1 entrepreneur genuine test is for not minimum wages etc, it is when the applicant company exist, is he/she still the director of the company, current appointment letter, two employees date of starts and their status, company annual accounts and an accountant letter, business bank statement, business register address, hmrc annual tax (Corporation tax). ETC.

Regards
I K

If I and others on this forum had 'left him alone' as u suggest one thing would happen. He would not be extended.

[Mrchaany]

ok i agree but

good suggestion for him/her but me suggestions for this particular members of this forum could you please arrange at least one or two more full time employees even on apprenticeship or national living wages which will be 7.20 from april 2016. so may be his/her confusion would solved.

regards

[seasky]

ok i agree but

good suggestion for him/her but me suggestions for this particular members of this forum could you please arrange at least one or two more full time employees even on apprenticeship or national living wages which will be 7.20 from april 2016. so may be his/her confusion would solved.

regards

So your 'helpful' suggestion to him is "hire people so that you have the absolute bare minimum of employment". (As if he does not know you actually have to meet the minimum criteria) forgot to add "with that you will have ticked all the boxes and surely have no problem extending?

[FKS21177]

Hi All.. looking at the replies to this thread confused me abit on how HO calculate hours to fulfill 2 jobs requirement. I got visa in 2013 and hired one employee in 2014 who worked 11 full time 46hrs/week themn went part time for 18hrs/week for 5 months and the resigned.
after she resigned i hired another employee 22hrs/week still working along with one more who is working 20hrs/week..... so long story short

one worker 11 months doing 46/week and then 5 months 18/week then resigned
one worker 22/week, by time of extension he will be 16 months and still working
one worker 20/week, by the time extension will 6 months still working.

will above fulfil requirement of 2 jobs or do I have to worry about coz i still have time and if not enough i must hire another employee.......your views will be appreciated

[zimba]

Hi All.. looking at the replies to this thread confused me abit on how HO calculate hours to fulfill 2 jobs requirement. I got visa in 2013 and hired one employee in 2014 who worked 11 full time 46hrs/week themn went part time for 18hrs/week for 5 months and the resigned.
after she resigned i hired another employee 22hrs/week still working along with one more who is working 20hrs/week..... so long story short

one worker 11 months doing 46/week and then 5 months 18/week then resigned
one worker 22/week, by time of extension he will be 16 months and still working
one worker 20/week, by the time extension will 6 months still working.

will above fulfil requirement of 2 jobs or do I have to worry about coz i still have time and if not enough i must hire another employee.......your views will be appreciated

(If visa granted before April 2014)
You are allowed to combine part time employees to get to 30hours/week. You have 11 full time months and therefore you need another 13 months of full time work to get 24 months full time employment.
If you have two part time workers for 13 months, totally working more than 30 hours/week then you will be fine.

[FKS21177]

Thanks so ever zimba88 for ur time & help. Much appreciated.
I was of the same view but this thread confused me.