Travelling After Citizenship Ceremony

[jalsaqla]

Hello,

I recently attended the citizenship ceremony not knowing that I will loose my ILR immediately. I need to urgently travel to a conference. What should I do?

Thanks

[noajthan]

Hello,

I recently attended the citizenship ceremony not knowing that I will loose my ILR immediately. I need to urgently travel to a conference. What should I do?

Thanks

If HO are on the ball and cancel your ILR speedily & efficiently then not much to be done apart from rescheduling travel.

It's a little unrealistic to expect normal life to carry on whilst processing such a major change; at least that's what my (& other members') experiences and these forums have taught me.

[jalsaqla]

Cancelling my travels is not an option for me. I need a solution other than cancelling my travel.

[Casa]

If you want to avoid a £1,000 fine, your BRP must be returned to the HO within 5 days of attending the ceremony. If you aren't able to change your travel plans, your only other option is to 'wing it' and hope that the airline on your return will allow you to board with your foreign passport & citizenship certificate and that you don't have a non-co-operative Immigration Officer at your port of entry in the UK. Risking the fine and retaining your BRP will depend as Noajthan has advised on how quickly the HO invalidate it. At present this is somewhat of an unknown quantity as the new rules have only recently been implemented.

[noajthan]

Cancelling my travels is not an option for me. I need a solution other than cancelling my travel.

All you can do is wing it then. You can certainly leave UK, the challenge will be to board a plane to return.

As explained above, you risk prosecution (criminal record) & £1000 fine so I leave the cost-benefit analysis up to you (& any employer).

[JohnnyZee]

Guys - Why are we being scaremongers here? Can anyone tell me who has been fined £1,000 for not returning their BRP? Also, comments such as one "risk(s) prosecution (criminal record)" are totally unfounded. I would like to see how something like this can create a criminal record? Please provide your source.

I am really disappointed that some of the advice here is not based on rules and regulations, but rather personal opinions. Please let's try to be responsible. Also I am gutted to see "admins" making such errors. They need to be the ones setting the example.

I am all for giving advice, but please let's not misguide others. This is a beautiful forum and let's try to maintain it's reputation. Thank you.

[Casa]

Guys - Why are we being scaremongers here? Can anyone tell me who has been fined £1,000 for not returning their BRP? Also, comments such as one "risk(s) prosecution (criminal record)" are totally unfounded. I would like to see how something like this can create a criminal record? Please provide your source.

I am really disappointed that some of the advice here is not based on rules and regulations, but rather personal opinions. Please let's try to be responsible. Also I am gutted to see "admins" making such errors. They need to be the ones setting the example.

I am all for giving advice, but please let's not misguide others. This is a beautiful forum and let's try to maintain it's reputation. Thank you.

You'll note that I said in my previous post that this is an unknown quantity at present due to the Rules being only recently introduced. Be assured that the HO will start to collect fines for the non-return of the BRP...it just a question of how soon. I would rather make members aware that there are risks...instead of having to read posts later on where advice has been over-optimistic.

[noajthan]

Guys - Why are we being scaremongers here? Can anyone tell me who has been fined £1,000 for not returning their BRP? Also, comments such as one "risk(s) prosecution (criminal record)" are totally unfounded. I would like to see how something like this can create a criminal record? Please provide your source.

I am really disappointed that some of the advice here is not based on rules and regulations, but rather personal opinions. Please let's try to be responsible. Also I am gutted to see "admins" making such errors. They need to be the ones setting the example.

I am all for giving advice, but please let's not misguide others. This is a beautiful forum and let's try to maintain it's reputation. Thank you.

Messenger - shoot - don't.

I don't work for the HO, the Border Force nor the police or CPS so ofcourse I don't have any prosecution details to hand.
That doesn't make the regulation go away.
It doesn't make prosecutions less likely.

And recent events (in past days and weeks) have made airline security even more of a hot topic.
Do you really want to advise a 'foreign gentleman' with no clear visa nor proof of connection to UK to turn up at an airport and try to talk himself onto a British-bound plane

Would it be better if we all said to OP

it's fine, go to conference, don't worry about it, the airlines are all so incompetent & never check visas anyway, their security is a joke and ofcourse IO will welcome you back with open arms - she may even carry your bag for you...

- regardless of the below facts...

Rules and regulations dating from May 2015 from Home Office:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... n_v5_0.pdf
- page 10

Failure to return a BRP to the Home Office following a grant of British citizenship may result in the issuance of a financial penalty

See also https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-c ... p-ceremony

You’ll be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t return your permit in 5 days.

If one is prosecuted for this one will acquire a record.
Hardly an auspicious start to life as a British citizen.

Whether you think that is worthwhile just to please an employer and to avoid upsetting travel plans made without due care and diligence - that is an opinion and you're welcome to yours.

My opinion is the Home Office won't work around such plans. Home Office will expect you to work within their rules and regulations or face the responsibilities of being a British citizen.
And claiming ignorance is no excuse.

[Casa]

Also for those who don't want to read through the links:
Please cut up your BRP and return your/your client’s cancelled permit in a
windowless plain envelope, with a covering note, which clearly explains the reason
for return or an explanation for not returning the card.
Should you fail to return the BRP, or notify the department of the reasons for not
being able to do so, the Secretary of State may impose a fine of up to £1,000.
22
If you need to travel to and from the UK after being granted British citizenship you
must apply for a British passport or a Certificate of entitlement to the right of abode,
to be placed in your foreign passport. Guidance on applying for a British passport can
be found on Gov.UK.
Following a grant of citizenship your BRP will be cancelled, which means a carrier
may refuse to accept it as evidence that you are entitled to reside in the UK.


Forewarned is always forearmed

[noajthan]

...

Forewarned is always forearmed

Explained beautifully, Casa

[jalsaqla]

I am entitled to apply for an electronic visa waiver on my second passport. Should I apply for that instead of keeping my ILR?

[tripping]

No JohnnyZee, the admins were not scaremongering as you put it.

The OP was asking for suggestions on what to do in his circumstance, and the admins were helpful in providing potential solutions, and stated the consequences ( fine of £1000 if BRP is not returned within 5 days and risking criminal record, boarding compllications on the return flight) if those options were followed through. Whether or not we know of anyone who was fined and actually faced those consequences is irrelevant, those are the facts and rules, and anyone caught in the OP's situation must be made aware of them.

It is the responsibility of the OP to be fully aware of all the myriad rules and constant changes regarding BC, the forum and google have a wealth of this information. Personal planning has to take these into account. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse as getting BC is a huge undertaking. The admins arent here to molly coddle anyone, just stating facts and rules and thats the reality the OP is facing. It is unfortunate that the OP is in this situation, so will have to make his own decision to deal with it.

[noajthan]

No JohnnyZee, the admins were not scaremongering as you put it.

The OP was asking for suggestions on what to do in his circumstance, and the admins were helpful in providing potential solutions, and stated the consequences ( fine of £1000 if BRP is not returned within 5 days and risking criminal record, boarding compllications on the return flight) if those options were followed through. Whether or not we know of anyone who was fined and actually faced those consequences is irrelevant, those are the facts and rules, and anyone caught in the OP's situation must be made aware of them.

It is the responsibility of the OP to be fully aware of all the myriad rules and constant changes regarding BC, the forum and google have a wealth of this information. Personal planning has to take these into account. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse as getting BC is a huge undertaking. The admins arent here to molly coddle anyone, just stating facts and rules and thats the reality the OP is facing. It is unfortunate that the OP is in this situation, so will have to make his own decision to deal with it.

+1

And all done within just one hour of original post.

(Have you tried to book a solicitor or OISC advisor recently).

[johnch121]

Following a grant of citizenship your BRP will be cancelled, which means a carrier
may refuse to accept it as evidence that you are entitled to reside in the UK.

As all airlines do not have access to UK immigration computers at the point of check in and with being presented with a BRP which appears to be valid from a date point of view check in should really not be a problem as many people have already done so.

After extensive research I have been unable to find a single case where a person who has presented a BRP with there citizenship certificate being refused entry into the UK at worst you face a delay how long that is depends on how fast the Immigration office checks your details and gets approval.

There certainly seems to be a lot of posts that are pure scare mongering and not based on fact

[Casa]

Although Google is a marvellous thing... I don't think there is as yet any direct access to UK Border Control entry records
I've advised as my conscience dictates... and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, don't be so sure that airlines are unable to check whether the BRP is still active as the card has a machine readable zone (MRZ) which allows information printed on the permit to be read instantly by machine. The ' chip inside' symbol on the front is provided by The International Civil Aviation Organisation (governing air travel worldwide).

[noajthan]

...

After extensive research I have been unable to find a single case where a person who has presented a BRP with there citizenship certificate being refused entry into the UK at worst you face a delay how long that is depends on how fast the Immigration office checks your details and gets approval.

There certainly seems to be a lot of posts that are pure scare mongering and not based on fact

There are posts here based on indisputable facts sourced from official HO documents that people can read and use as they wish.

In the context of air travel and current airline security issues and trends I do not categorise that as scare-mongering.

In immigration matters, as well as many other areas of life, experience teaches that it's best to plan for the worst whilst hoping for the best.

[johnch121]

By the way, don't be so sure that airlines are unable to check whether the BRP is still active as the card has a machine readable zone (MRZ) Machine readable zone (MRZ) which allows information printed on the permit to be read instantly by machine. The ' chip inside' symbol on the front is provided by The International Civil Aviation Organisation (governing air travel worldwide

airlines do not have direct access to UK immigration files from check in they can of course request the required information but that has to be a formal request to the UK border agency. Pretty much the same as the US don't have access to criminal records unless they make a formal request to the relevant department. Unless the UK wants to totally ignore the data protection act and the Human rights act. This information can made made even harder to obtain if said person is outside of the EEA

[tripping]

Following a grant of citizenship your BRP will be cancelled, which means a carrier
may refuse to accept it as evidence that you are entitled to reside in the UK.

As all airlines do not have access to UK immigration computers at the point of check in and with being presented with a BRP which appears to be valid from a date point of view check in should really not be a problem as many people have already done so.

After extensive research I have been unable to find a single case where a person who has presented a BRP with there citizenship certificate being refused entry into the UK at worst you face a delay how long that is depends on how fast the Immigration office checks your details and gets approval.

There certainly seems to be a lot of posts that are pure scare mongering and not based on fact

There probably arent any documented cases of anyone who was refused entry on that basis. What we are saying is that, there is a risk of it happening based purely on the rules, and on the scale of probability of this happening to the OP or anyone in a similar situation, well that's up to fate. You are speculating and what the airlines may/may not do. Why tempt fate? They may very well be ok winging it with the expired BRP and/or naturalisation certificate, as some people clearly have done, or they may not. As Noajthan has mentioned, those are the official HO rules, interpret them as you wish especially in light of current events regarding airport security. You have been warned.

[johnch121]

One thing that should not be forgotten is upon a person ariving back to the UK without a right to abode stamp in there passport and want to use an expired BRP and Citizenship document is:

It should be remembered that the absence of evidence to establish a claim to the right of abode is not, in itself, a ground for refusal of entry.

[Casa]

One thing that should not be forgotten is upon a person ariving back to the UK without a right to abode stamp in there passport and want to use an expired BRP and Citizenship document is:

It should be remembered that the absence of evidence to establish a claim to the right of abode is not, in itself, a ground for refusal of entry.

Perhaps you could generously offer to help pay for any members who may be fined for the non-return of the BRP.

[noajthan]

By the way, don't be so sure that airlines are unable to check whether the BRP is still active as the card has a machine readable zone (MRZ) Machine readable zone (MRZ) which allows information printed on the permit to be read instantly by machine. The ' chip inside' symbol on the front is provided by The International Civil Aviation Organisation (governing air travel worldwide)

airlines do not have direct access to UK immigration files from check in they can of course request the required information but that has to be a formal request to the UK border agency. Pretty much the same as the US don't have access to criminal records unless they make a formal request to the relevant department. Unless the UK wants to totally ignore the data protection act and the Human rights act. This information can made made even harder to obtain if said person is outside of the EEA

Airlines do not need such 'direct access' to 'UK immigration files', that's not how its done.
OK to board (OTB) processing (including visa/document checks) is handled by Advanced Passenger Information systems (APIS).
Many airlines are now heavily invested in APIS and related systems.

The world of Phileas Fogg and waving a passport under the nose of a dozy border guard or a dippy check-in counter girl (or getting on the blower to the embassy to check on a visa) is fast disappearing.

[Casa]

+1 Noajthan Having previously worked for an International airline, I can vouch for that.

[kankerot]

Looks like we are in a similar position, we will just have to wait for the citizenship certificate to come through.

So will travelling to the US and back be ok on a US passport and then showing a british citizen cert at customs? Or will we need to get the UK passport as well. I messed up not applying for both at the same time - never knew about the fast track and its really cutting into our travel plans.

[Casa]

Looks like we are in a similar position, we will just have to wait for the citizenship certificate to come through.

So will travelling to the US and back be ok on a US passport and then showing a british citizen cert at customs? Or will we need to get the UK passport as well. I messed up not applying for both at the same time - never knew about the fast track and its really cutting into our travel plans.

Have you read through all the lengthy (and contentious) discussions in this thread? I don't think we can repeat them all over again. You must make your own conclusions based on the various opinions already given.

[secret.simon]

Fascinating discussion.