EEA National (Irish) Applying for PR - 5+ years resident

[TimeInvariant]

Hi Everyone,

My apologies if the answers for this are posted elsewhere – I’ve had a search around the various sub-forums and couldn’t find what I was looking for

Summary of my details: Born/raised in Republic of Ireland. Resident in the UK for over a decade. Studied at uni for 3 years here, since then have worked full-time (9+ years). I am married to a British citizen (who was born in England). We have no children.

I want to apply for a permanent resident card – with the EU referendum impending, I’d like peace of mind. Had relied on Common Travel Area/EEA citizenship until now.

I have been filling in the EEA3 form, and am thoroughly confused, so I have some questions:
1. What is the best route for me to apply – as someone who has spent more than 5 years here working, or as someone who is married to a British citizen?
2. Will I need to show my travel records and bills for more than 5 years (I’ve been here over a decade). 5 is possible, 10+ years records impossible for me.
3. Does my marriage have to have been in the UK? It was in Canada, in 2014
4. For university study, are the dates of study defined as the date of commencement to graduation?
5. For salaries in the Employment section, should this be the final salary at end of employment?
6. I had a discount on council tax being a single-occupant in accommodation as a student. I don’t have the details of it - and it was almost 10 years ago so the council don't have it on record - will this be a problem?
7. Do driving penalties (speeding for example) have to be declared in Section 17?
8. I received funding for postgrad studies from the EU (13 years ago) – I don’t have the details of this (the university did the funding work, and the professor has since left). Is this problematic?

Many thanks for any help you can provide at all,

TimeInvariant

[noajthan]

As an Irish citizen, my understanding, is you are already considered as settled and have a right of abode in UK due to special UK/Irish-related legislation and the CTA.
Stand by for someone more knowledgeable to fill in the gaps and correct any errors here.

So, as per my understanding, Irish citizens do not have to invoke EU treaty rights and work towards acquiring PR, etc etc.

Example, my uncle from Achill Island has lived in UK happily for forty years or more; he didn't even get a passport until the last year or so.

[ohara]

As an Irish citizen, my understanding, is you are already considered as settled

Yes. Under the common travel area (CTA) arrangement, Irish citizens who move to the UK are automatically and immediately considered settled.

[Richard W]

As an Irish citizen, my understanding, is you are already considered as settled and have a right of abode in UK due to special UK/Irish-related legislation and the CTA.

No, being Irish does not confer right of abode. Only Commonwealth citizens may have right of abode in the UK, and the only way to acquire it now is to become a British citizen.

Having EEA permanent residence conveys family immigration rights that merely being settled does not.

Stand by for someone more knowledgeable to fill in the gaps and correct any errors here.

Indeed, there seem to be complications to the whole business of the Irish being settled. On reading the Immigration Act 1971, it would seem that people who have never left the British Isles are settled if ordinarily resident in the UK, but that may well be wrong for those born in the UK. The Home Office doesn't accept the claim. I look forward to an explanation based on law as opposed to practice.

It would not require fresh primary law to exclude the Republic of Ireland from the Common Travel Area, and the special mention that Irish citizens once had in the Immigration Rules seems to have been absorbed by provisions for EEA Nationals. There has been speculation that the Irish may lose their special rights if the UK withdraws from the EEA, but I noticed that the Immigration Act 1971 has special concessions for Irish citizens who were already resident in the UK.

1. What is the best route for me to apply – as someone who has spent more than 5 years here working, or as someone who is married to a British citizen?

The first is for EEA permanent residence. Being married to a British citizen will allow you to naturalise once you've been married for 3 years, which will be in 2017. You could apply for ILR on the basis of 10 years long residence.

2. Will I need to show my travel records and bills for more than 5 years (I’ve been here over a decade). 5 is possible, 10+ years records impossible for me.

Just choose the easiest 5 consecutive years to prove.

3. Does my marriage have to have been in the UK? It was in Canada, in 2014

That's fine, but irrelevant unless you're planning to naturalise.

[Casa]

"Being married to a British citizen will allow you to naturalise once you've been married for 3 years," A misunderstanding here. It's not a requirement to have been married to a BC for 3 years, but to have been legally resident in the UK for 3 years and also have been granted PR (or ILR). In your case, as soon as you have confirmation of BC you will be able to apply for British citizenship, assuming you meet all the standard requirements. It's irrelevant how long you've been married.

[Richard W]

"Being married to a British citizen will allow you to naturalise once you've been married for 3 years," A misunderstanding here. It's not a requirement to have been married to a BC for 3 years, but to have been legally resident in the UK for 3 years and also have been granted PR (or ILR).

Sorry about that mistake.

Now when it comes to the qualification of an Irishman to naturalise, the law seems to be quite complicated.

Let us consider the question of whether is "subject under the immigration laws to any restriction on the period for which he might remain in the United Kingdom". If he has always been in the British Isles, he is not subject to any such restriction. If he enters the CTA in the United Kingdom (or, I believe, the British Islands), then he is subject to the same restrictions as any other EEA national, i.e. it depends on whether he hold PR. If, having been outside the CTA, he enters the CTA via the Republic of Ireland, then IA 1971 Section 9(2) applies, and there are no blanket restrictions on Irish citizens. In short, entering the UK from outside the CTA strips an Irishman of his special status, which is restored by returning to the Republic.

The implications of this on the acquisition of British nationality from non-British Irish parents are unpleasant, but I suppose are no worse than the question of whether the Irish parent was 'ordinarily resident' in the UK.

As far as not being "in breach of the immigration laws" is concerned, entering the UK from the Republic generally removes that problem - he acquires a "qualifying CTA entitlement", an entitlement only available to Irish citizens. For other modes of entry, he is dependent on his status under the EEA Regulations.

I have ignored issues relating to deportation or administrative removal.

So, so far as I can tell, an Irishman born in the Republic who has always been in the British Isles generally does not need ILR or PR to naturalise as British, but one who has just entered the UK on a flight from Toronto would need ILR or PR.

[TimeInvariant]

Thanks folks, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply with such detailed answers.

I've had a similar debate back and forth with myself on this - whether an Irish person requires permanent residence. I would need it if I wanted to naturalise as a British citizen, I believe. Currently I don't need it, as such - however this Brexit stuff has suddenly made me aware of the fact that I'm relying on the CTA and the EEA to stay in this country.

I suppose, in all - I'm confused as to whether the fact that I've been studying/working/living in the UK for 13 years is sufficient to considering me to be legally settled. Would the PR status make that more solid? Can I even apply for PR, being Irish? (More questions, I know - sorry guys!)

[Richard W]

There've been earlier discussions on the general topic - Irish Citizen Applying for British Naturalisation and http://www.immigrationboards.com/general-uk-immigration-forum/ILR-for-Irish-Citizen.

I tried digging out a pre-Common Market version of the Immigration Rules to see what they said about Irishmen entering the CTA in the UK, but I couldn't find a copy.

The HMPO internal instructions are interesting - they don't bother about how an Irishman got to the UK to determine whether his children born in the UK are British. After all, he can just take a stroll across the border and back, and, hey presto, he's settled if he's ordinarily resident! As the OP has a British wife, that'd then qualify him to naturalise. The OP has clearly acquired PR; the only question is whether it's worth the £65 to get formal acceptance of the claim. Naturalisation, at £1236, is cheaper than ILR at £1875. I'm not sure if he is qualified for ILR. That needs the 10-year route, and I'm not sure if he was legally resident under the then EEA regulations at the start, so a day trip to France could cause complications.

[TimeInvariant]

Thanks! I'm slowly making my way through all my documents and have pretty much everything I need now except for two things I'm unclear on:
- Tax exemption/benefits info: I can't find documents showing my exemption from council tax whilst a student, and the council are being very slow to look into it (to be fair, it's 13 years ago..). I do have two documents showing my applying for the exemption, just not the actual exemtpion!
- Secondly - and more importantly - I have a CU80 which has expired (in July 2015) but is still displayed (as expired) until July 2016 on my driving license details. Section 17.1 of the PR form says you have to include road traffic offences but not fixed penalty notices.

I've gone back and forth across so many guidelines and government websites, and I can't see a clear definition. Do they mean any road traffic offences which are not FPN's? Is a CU80 an FPN?
I handed my license in to the police station with the payment of the fine (paid that by phone I think, with the DVLA?). Received the license back with the points on. No court appearance, as I accepted the penalty on the roadside with the police officer.

So the question is, do I include the CU80 details in the application - I'm not intentionally trying to avoid submitting it, I just don't know if it's something they require in the application. Do I include it with a note saying I paid it as an FPN?

[TimeInvariant]

Hi Folks,

Sorry I have asked this within another thread, but I didn't get a response so I thought perhaps I could create a new topic. My apologies to the mods if this is against board rules,

I am applying for Permanent Residency under EEA rules

I have 3 points on my license from a CU80 (using mobile phone). This was from a fixed penalty notice - I signed the various items on the side of the road with the officer, and handed my license in to have points added next day at the local station. I did not have to go to court.

The EEA form states for criminal offences:
"This includes road traffic offences but not fixed penalty notices (such as speeding or parking tickets) unless they were part of a sentence of the court."

So, to my mind the following is true:
- CU80 does not have to be included as an item in my evidence pack, or mentioned in the section for 17.1, as it didn't involve a court conviction
- I can tick 'No' to the 'Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence' question?

Basically my paranoia/guilt over this CU80 (I was very stupid to do it) makes me wonder if I am meant to include it or not? Can anyone say one way or the other, from their experience - that would much appreciated.
At the end of the day, I don't want to have said No to the criminal offence question, or ommitted the CU80, if it is considered to be worthy of mention

Thanks guys

[LilyLalilu]

You are not legally required to give this information for the purpose of EEA PR. If you use the form, you will need to disclose this information because the form asks for it. If you do not wish to disclose this information, just apply by letter or use an old version of the form.
But tbh, they cannot refuse you a confirmation of PR for this anyway, so you may as well disclose it, doesn't make any difference

[ohara]

You are not required to declare such motoring convictions in applications for EEA residence documentation, and even if you do, it won't affect your application.

[TimeInvariant]

You are not legally required to give this information for the purpose of EEA PR. If you use the form, you will need to disclose this information because the form asks for it. If you do not wish to disclose this information, just apply by letter or use an old version of the form.
But tbh, they cannot refuse you a confirmation of PR for this anyway, so you may as well disclose it, doesn't make any difference

Hi - and thank you! Sorry it took so long to reply - I could not work out how to search this message board for previous posts!

Can I check - you say the form asks for this information - but it was somewhat unclear in the current version of the form (version 03/2016?). The form asks for the sentence given and the date of the sentence - but as it was an FPN and not a court conviction, I wasn't sure how to even fill that in. There's no convicting court info for the FPN (as there wasn't a court).

Not wishing to confuse or to even argue about this (I trust you know better than I do, tbh) - but do you think the form asks for the information?

I was thinking of not listing it there (as it's not a sentence of the court, as they say) but perhaps including my old paper counterpart (although these are no longer necessary documents) that lists it explicitly as an FPN. I could then reference this in my cover letter saying something along the lines (though more formal) of "look, I do have an FPN and I want to be transparent in case you do need the information".

Do you think it would be adverse to my application? (I'm crippling myself with paranoia here)

I have one last question - and please forgive me for asking this in an unrelated thread, but:
Way before my 5 years continuous period I'm using as evidence, I had council tax exemption due to being a student in the UK. I can't for the life of me get the council to send me out any details, since it's a long while back (10+ years ago), and I don't have any paperwork showing my exemption. I intend to list it in my application since it does ask for any benefits received during self-sufficient period - but it's a LONG time ago. Do they need evidence? I've been employed for the last 9 years full-time, so this is pretty ancient history.

Super thankful for any and all responses. Thanks guys, you've all been so helpful

[noajthan]

Its not a mandatory nor legal requirement to use the latest 'monster' PR form.

You could go commando and apply by letter.

Or take a look at this PR form a member has compiled by mashing a previous/simpler PR form with the up-to-date HO contact and other details:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/128 ... ple_v2.pdf

Suggest printing a few copies off and trying a few dry runs with your information (& all supporting evidence) - see how it all shapes up.

[TimeInvariant]

Its not a mandatory nor legal requirement to use the latest 'monster' PR form.

You could go commando and apply by letter.

Or take a look at this PR form a member has compiled by mashing a previous/simpler PR form with the up-to-date HO contact and other details:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/128 ... ple_v2.pdf

Suggest printing a few copies off and trying a few dry runs with your information (& all supporting evidence) - see how it all shapes up.

Wow! I really wish I'd looked for this before I went through the enormous form (which I swear took weeks just to get my head around, not to mind the time to fill it in..)

You guys seriously do a great service here, I'm genuinely so thankful this website exists

[TimeInvariant]

Hi guys,

I have one last question then - and I will allow you all then to get back to relaxing on your Sunday!

I had a question further back in the thread that got buried amongst my big list:
"Tax exemption/benefits info: I can't find documents showing my exemption from council tax whilst a student, and the council are being very slow to look into it (to be fair, it's 13 years ago..). I do have two documents showing my applying for the exemption, just not the actual exemtpion!"

This relates to council tax exemption as described within the section on state funds/benefits.
I've tried to get a letter from the relevant city council to no avail. I've enquired a few times, and been bounced around to various people/departments - this could be a long while before I can get a letter from them (if at all!)

I have more recent council exemption info (from when my wife was a student), but not 10+ years ago for myself.

Since it's outside the 5 year period, is it absolutely necessary to my application to show this - or must the evidence for council tax exemption cover all the years I've been resident in the UK?
It's the last piece of evidence I'm really struggling to get a hold of

[noajthan]

...

I have more recent council exemption info (from when my wife was a student), but not 10+ years ago for myself.

Since it's outside the 5 year period, is it absolutely necessary to my application to show this - or must the evidence for council tax exemption cover all the years I've been resident in the UK?
It's the last piece of evidence I'm really struggling to get a hold of

It is not a requirement of EU law to report on council tax liability.

The monster PR form, somewhat controversially asks for and collects much more information than is required or necessary under EU law.

One can only speculate on why that may be and what it is all used for.
(Or else one can go back to watching a rerun of Eurovision on iPlayer).

[secret.simon]

Apologies to the OP for not responding to his/her latest question and for diverting her thread for the purposes of an academic discussion.

This post is a response to Richard W's posts in this thread.

I tried digging out a pre-Common Market version of the Immigration Rules to see what they said about Irishmen entering the CTA in the UK, but I couldn't find a copy.

Unlikely that such a copy would exist as the Immigration Act 1971 and the European Communities Act 1972 are almost of the same age, as it were.

they don't bother about how an Irishman got to the UK to determine whether his children born in the UK are British. After all, he can just take a stroll across the border and back, and, hey presto, he's settled if he's ordinarily resident!

Indeed, I think that was the intent of the law.

The status of Irish citizens in the UK is, to an extent, a consequence of the Ireland Act 1949, Section 2 of which states;

It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom...and references in any Act of Parliament,..., whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens,...shall be construed accordingly.

Thus, Irish citizens are not to be considered "foreigners" or "aliens" in terms of UK law. Later changes, such as the Immigration Act 1971 and British Nationality Act 1981 defined patriality and right of abode with regards to the United Kingdom and Islands (the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man), but did not alter the status of Irish citizens in the UK. Thus Irish citizens, not being British citizens, are not foreigners either and hence are treated as being settled on arrival, wherever they arrive from. It is not their travel from within the CTA that gives them their status, but their citizenship of the Republic of Ireland.

I look forward to an explanation based on law as opposed to practice.

Given that the constitution of the UK is based on practice rather than law, I would not be fussed about the difference between the two. Conventions (codified practice) have as much force as written statute. Some of the things that we take for granted in the UK are merely conventions/practices and not enacted law.

The two most basic that come to mind are
a) There is no legal requirement that the Queen have a Prime Minister, much less that he be the head of the largest party in the House of Commons.
b) There is no law establishing either the flag or the national anthem of the UK.

And yet, we managed not only to run an Empire, we bequeathed this constitution to the Commonwealth countries.

I would need it (a reference to PR) if I wanted to naturalise as a British citizen, I believe.

Given that Irish citizens are treated as settled for the purpose of Section 1(1) of the BNA 1981, I would find it strange if they were not to be considered "settled" for any other section (such as Section 6(2)) of the same Act.

[TimeInvariant]

I had a quick natter with a nice lady at the UKBA (I've not experienced anyone else on their phones, but she was very nice anyway). She genuinely didn't know whether I should or even could apply, as an Irish person.
She enquired with her manager who recommended that I should apply, on the basis that they genuinely didn't know what the situation would be post-Brexit should that occur.

I think tbh in this situation they know as much as we do, and honestly I feel like I might be the only Irish person paranoid enough to have gone this far with applying!

[TimeInvariant]

Hi,

A last question if anyone can answer this - in the situation that my certificate of PR was refused - what would that mean? (It's fairly unlikely, since I meet all the requirements for PR, and I'm an EEA national)
Would I be still entitled to stay in the UK - or would I be required to leave?
Is it a risk that I'm applying for a PR certificate?

Thanks!

[noajthan]

Hi,

A last question if anyone can answer this - in the situation that my certificate of PR was refused - what would that mean? (It's fairly unlikely, since I meet all the requirements for PR, and I'm an EEA national)
Would I be still entitled to stay in the UK - or would I be required to leave?
Is it a risk that I'm applying for a PR certificate?

Thanks!

Thanks to the CTA, Irish citizens do not have to invoke EU treaty rights and work towards acquiring PR. You will still be considered settled in UK due to the CTA.

[TimeInvariant]

Hi,

A last question if anyone can answer this - in the situation that my certificate of PR was refused - what would that mean? (It's fairly unlikely, since I meet all the requirements for PR, and I'm an EEA national)
Would I be still entitled to stay in the UK - or would I be required to leave?
Is it a risk that I'm applying for a PR certificate?

Thanks!

Thanks to the CTA, Irish citizens do not have to invoke EU treaty rights and work towards acquiring PR. You will still be considered settled in UK due to the CTA.

May I pick your brain then - would non-CTA folk have trouble with this? E.g. my colleague is Polish and going through the same process. If that colleague didn't pass the PR requirements, having applied for PR and not acheived it, would they be required to leave?
(I know I'm going down the rabbit hole with these questions - my apologies)

[noajthan]

...

May I pick your brain then - would non-CTA folk have trouble with this? E.g. my colleague is Polish and going through the same process. If that colleague didn't pass the PR requirements, having applied for PR and not acheived it, would they be required to leave?
(I know I'm going down the rabbit hole with these questions - my apologies)

Yes, possibly. As, in general, EEA nationals are covered by EU law.

HO has the option of administrative removal if an EEA national is not exercising treaty rights after the initial 3 months grace period.

[Richard W]

HO has the option of administrative removal if an EEA national is not exercising treaty rights after the initial 3 months grace period.

It is therefore quite possible for a DCPR to be refused in circumstances in which a RC would be issued. What is the case is that when a DCPR is refused then there is likely to be an investigation of whether the EEA national is currently lawfully present.

[noajthan]

I'm not going to speculate further on the status of a hypothetical Pole until said imaginary person registers and asks her own question.