BC for wife and child, BC for 2 years, im lost...

[adinmat]

Hi,

I am currently lost how to proceed with this, reading around (again!) it is a jungle of contradicting informations for me.

Facts:
Me: arrived in 2007 from EU A8, naturalised in 2013, exercising treaty rights, with WRS scheme. All went well, passport in Oct 2013

My wife and child: arrived in 2008, wife registered with WRS, worked since 2008 too, missed few months to apply with me with Life in the UK test, which we both passed together back in 2013. She has always worked part time jobs where you would struggle to say she was self-supporting (not sure if this is important). She also attended college for last 2 years and passed AAT lvl2 and AAT lvl3 courses (in English of course) but not sure if that counts as proof of English skill. I am only hoping that Life in the UK test taken in May 2013 counts for her...

Now, how to proceed with their naturalisation? I would like to skip treaty rights and get them apply together as spouse and child of BC (me), but is it going to fly? We married 15 years ago, way before I was naturalised, does it make a difference?

If still exercising treaty rights, how about a child (12)?

Some clarification and pointers will be much appreciated!

[noajthan]

Hi,

I am currently lost how to proceed with this, reading around (again!) it is a jungle of contradicting informations for me.

Facts:
Me: arrived in 2007 from EU A8, naturalised in 2013, exercising treaty rights, with WRS scheme. All went well, passport in Oct 2013

My wife and child: arrived in 2008, wife registered with WRS, worked since 2008 too, missed few months to apply with me with Life in the UK test, which we both passed together back in 2013. She has always worked part time jobs where you would struggle to say she was self-supporting (not sure if this is important). She also attended college for last 2 years and passed AAT lvl2 and AAT lvl3 courses (in English of course) but not sure if that counts as proof of English skill. I am only hoping that Life in the UK test taken in May 2013 counts for her...

Now, how to proceed with their naturalisation? I would like to skip treaty rights and get them apply together as spouse and child of BC (me), but is it going to fly? We married 15 years ago, way before I was naturalised, does it make a difference?

If still exercising treaty rights, how about a child (12)?

Some clarification and pointers will be much appreciated!

LITUK does not expire.

Your wife will have to provide proof of English as per Gov UK website.

Your wife needs settled status in UK, for EEA national that (usually) means acquiring PR.
Wife can apply as dependent family member (for 5 years) of EEA national who exercised treaty rights (so no need to worry about CSI nonsense for her).
If any doubts you could apply for wife's PR card first - smaller fee so less outlay is put at risk.

Wife applies to naturalise using form AN.
As she is now spouse of a BC she can apply as soon as she has PR, no need to hold PR a further 12 months first.

As you are BC already, child can be registered as BC "at Home Secretary's discretion", conveniently with wife's naturalisation application.
Use form MN1. Section 3(1) applies if child born was abroad.

Best of luck.

[adinmat]

Thank you noajthan!

A bit more than!

If I apply for PR and obtain it for my mrs, will I need to repeat same for AN? I mean from what I already saw PR requires loads of documentation to be provided.

Also I understand that I act as "sponsor" as I am BC now? Those terms used around are really confusing.

Cheers!

[noajthan]

Thank you noajthan!

A bit more than!

If I apply for PR and obtain it for my mrs, will I need to repeat same for AN? I mean from what I already saw PR requires loads of documentation to be provided.

Also I understand that I act as "sponsor" as I am BC now? Those terms used around are really confusing.

Cheers!

The naturalisation guide includes a section on what to send with the application.

As you can see in this section having a PR card reduces some of the evidence that is asked for ...

See section: FOR APPLICANTS FROM SWITZERLAND OR THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AREA in:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _final.pdf

As a BC you are not a 'sponsor' really;
it just means your spouse can apply to naturalise immediately on achieving settled status (rather than waiting 12 more months as someone not married to a BC would have to do) - assuming all other requirements are met.

[adinmat]

Hello,

A bit old thread, but now I am at the final stage of submitting application for my wife and a child. While AN application is straightforward for me and well understood, I am having issues understanding other terms and how to fill/submit the application.

Some facts first:
1. I am naturalized as BC back in 2013
2. My wife has got now PR card, and all other requirements met (IELTS test, LItUK passed too).
3. Child is 12 (born outside UK), lives here since the age of 4
4. We are A8 migrants

Now... what is "family application"? I cannot find any specific forms or fees (i understand that family fee is gone now). Is it just submitting AN + MN1 together treated as "family application"? I am going to be using nationality checking service to make sure all is correct and get documents back immediately, so should I book it for "family application" or adult + child? Cannot find any elaboration on this.

Also MN1 seems to be overcomplicated to me. It is a child so it does not have many things asked for:

- "Please indicate the section of the British Nationality Act 1981 under which you would like to the application considered" - is it 3(1)?... Or this is just section in the MN1 form?...

- information about permanent residence and when...? Does a child have anything like that? Does it just follow what parent(s) hold? No clue here

- biometric registration - do I just state that there isn't one and we will get invitation/request to do it, or we just should book it first?

I would be really grateful for any pointers. Looking to get Nationality Checking appointment next week

[noajthan]

Hello,

A bit old thread, but now I am at the final stage of submitting application for my wife and a child. While AN application is straightforward for me and well understood, I am having issues understanding other terms and how to fill/submit the application.

...

Now... what is "family application"? I cannot find any specific forms or fees (i understand that family fee is gone now). Is it just submitting AN + MN1 together treated as "family application"? I am going to be using nationality checking service to make sure all is correct and get documents back immediately, so should I book it for "family application" or adult + child? Cannot find any elaboration on this.

Also MN1 seems to be overcomplicated to me. It is a child so it does not have many things asked for:

- "Please indicate the section of the British Nationality Act 1981 under which you would like to the application considered" - is it 3(1)?... Or this is just section in the MN1 form?...

- information about permanent residence and when...? Does a child have anything like that? Does it just follow what parent(s) hold? No clue here

- biometric registration - do I just state that there isn't one and we will get invitation/request to do it, or we just should book it first?

I would be really grateful for any pointers. Looking to get Nationality Checking appointment next week

There is no family application really; just submit relevant forms together.
Book NCS for adult + child.
Budget for adult (AN) + child (MN1) fees.

Yes, MN1 is a generic & complex form covering many scenarios. (It's also quite badly designed).

Yes, a foreign-born child applies to register, at Home Secretary's kind discretion, for the privilege of citizenship, under Section 3(1) of BNA.
Slightly confusingly, Section 3 of the MN1 form doesn't apply to your case.

The question about PR is a grey area.

As the child is applying to register at Home Secretary's discretion, the child is expected to be free of immigration time restrictions.

On the UK migration route (not yours), that would mean a child needs ILR.
Usually applications are refused if no ILR for a foreign-born child under s 3(1).

Taking the analogy for EU migration, it would suggest a child needs confirmation of PR (ie analogous to settled status & ILR).

On the EU migration route (your case) it is a quite unclear if PR (and any 'confirmation of PR' card) is required for a child.
The guidance and regulations are unclear.

There has been one recently reported case in the forum, (& just one!), where a member's child did not have confirmation of PR and was granted citizenship at discretion under section 3(1) of BNA.

I cannot say if the same discretion will be applied in your case.

If you are risk-averse, you may wish to apply for a 'confirmation of PR' card for your child on the basis of mother as sponsor.
(Assuming mother is an EEA national who has exercised treaty rights).

If so, do not let mother naturalise yet;
- reason: British citizens can no longer sponsor EEA family members.

Applicants will be invited to enrol biometrics in due course.

Good choice to use NCS - NCS is great.
Good luck.

[adinmat]

Hello Noajtan,

Thank you very much for you quick and detailed response! You are really a gem here!

"reason: British citizens can no longer sponsor EEA family members"

I've learned that hard way and must say we were lucky. I am guessing we were given a leeway since that changed recently?... So, my wife applied for PR with me being a sponsor. 2 months later (March this year) she had phonecalls from HO asking for evidence of either full time education or work to proceed with the PR application. We were told that I could not be a sponsor anymore since I was BC already. There we go. All we did was to give her work history with reference numbers from WRS cert to get this accepted and sorted. It was lucky as otherwise we would have to submit another 2 tons of papers to support it...

Since you are around on those forums a lot, that case were child did not have PR confirmation and was granted citizenship - was it a separate lucky case and normally in such case an application would be refused (from what others report) or this is just not widely reported on forums?

I just wonder if instead of doing that PR if try attach some history documents from primary school to show the history this should prove a child is settled since in full time education for 8 years now?...

Thanks again Noajthan

[noajthan]

Hello Noajtan,

Thank you very much for you quick and detailed response! You are really a gem here!

"reason: British citizens can no longer sponsor EEA family members"

I've learned that hard way and must say we were lucky. I am guessing we were given a leeway since that changed recently?... So, my wife applied for PR with me being a sponsor. 2 months later (March this year) she had phonecalls from HO asking for evidence of either full time education or work to proceed with the PR application. We were told that I could not be a sponsor anymore since I was BC already. There we go. All we did was to give her work history with reference numbers from WRS cert to get this accepted and sorted. It was lucky as otherwise we would have to submit another 2 tons of papers to support it...

Since you are around on those forums a lot, that case were child did not have PR confirmation and was granted citizenship - was it a separate lucky case and normally in such case an application would be refused (from what others report) or this is just not widely reported on forums?

I just wonder if instead of doing that PR if try attach some history documents from primary school to show the history this should prove a child is settled since in full time education for 8 years now?...

Thanks again Noajthan

BCs have not been regarded as EEA since 2012; that's the case since HO transposed the McCarthy judgement into EEA Regulations (ie the original McCarthy judgement not the other one).

I assume HO accepted your wife had acquired PR because she had actually been exercising treaty rights.
You were fortunate, she could have just been declined.
Its unfortunate you didn't include your child as a dependent in her application for confirmation of PR too.

I don't know why only one similar case has come up; either its unique or your co-EEA members haven't reported any other cases.
In that case the child hadn't actually spent 5 years residing in the UK with his family (/sponsor parent).

Due to the clear history of UK fails, I, for one was slightly surprised by the HO generosity in that EU case;
- it just shows the Home Secretary's discretion can be exercised in either of two ways.
In that one case the child seems to have been allowed to 'inherit' the parent's status; I doubt that can be relied upon every time.

There have been a lot of refusals reported due to minors on a UK trajectory not having ILR when applying under s.3(1) - hence my caution to you.

As your child has lived in UK with you for 5 years or more, you could try demonstrating your child has acquired PR;
after all a PR card is a mere confirmatory document (it doesn't confer the right).

You could use the adult guidance for a steer on the necessary supporting documentary evidence (as there is none clearly drafted for minors to cover this point).
Ofcourse, you don't need to show exercise of treaty rights - just the presence of an EEA parent/sponsor plus proof of relationship, identity and, ofcourse, residency in UK.

On the other hand, one point in favour of taking the PR card approach first, (especially if there is no particular hurry for mom and child to gain citizenship), is you are risking just £65 upfront, instead of £'00s in one hit.

[adinmat]

Yes I see it now. I could apply for child's PR together with his mother.

But.. thinking about this, I myself was not applying for PR card at all, just went straight on with AN application and all required documentation. Hearing what you saying about PR card being just a confirmation of the status, surely it should be all right to get this confirmed also on the occasion of MN1 application.

I am going to take this risk (I hope it is really minimal) and submit AN + MN1 without child's PR. I will try to support MN1 application with all possible documentation and details (ie. letter from the school confirming he was a pupil there for 7 years - just this one should really suffice, but I will try to find more documents like that and attach to the application).

Just a quick question here. Following what I just said, what would be the best to do with "If and when the child was given ILR..." field? Since it says "if" I should leave it blank as there was no such thing, but this might be undermining the application?

Part of that question says: "(...) If the child's parent is EEA national (...) you should ensure that they qualify for permanent residence (...)" - that would imply to me that my child does not have to have PR confirmation and just needs to "qualify for it" - which I am going to support with all possible evidence.

Does all of that make sense?

[noajthan]

Yes I see it now. I could apply for child's PR together with his mother.

But.. thinking about this, I myself was not applying for PR card at all, just went straight on with AN application and all required documentation. Hearing what you saying about PR card being just a confirmation of the status, surely it should be all right to get this confirmed also on the occasion of MN1 application.

I am going to take this risk (I hope it is really minimal) and submit AN + MN1 without child's PR. I will try to support MN1 application with all possible documentation and details (ie. letter from the school confirming he was a pupil there for 7 years - just this one should really suffice, but I will try to find more documents like that and attach to the application).

Just a quick question here. Following what I just said, what would be the best to do with "If and when the child was given ILR..." field? Since it says "if" I should leave it blank as there was no such thing, but this might be undermining the application?

Part of that question says: "(...) If the child's parent is EEA national (...) you should ensure that they qualify for permanent residence (...)" - that would imply to me that my child does not have to have PR confirmation and just needs to "qualify for it" - which I am going to support with all possible evidence.

Does all of that make sense?

I think you became a BC under previous rules.

Rules for adults naturalising changed in November 2015.
Now an EEA adult (on EU migration route) has to submit a PR card in order to naturalise.
(This is somewhat controversial, as, under EU law, a PR card is a mere confirmatory document and is optional to boot).

HO decided not to make this PR card mandatory for EEA minors - or else they simply forgot. (Who knows).
The 3(1) guidance still states that freedom from immigration time restrictions is expected.

That question on MN1 form is marked as for ILR - ie for minors on the UK immigration route. Suggest leave blank.
You can add a cogent explanatory paragraph in the additional info section of form to make your case clear.

Don't forget you need to submit proof with child's MN1 application that the EEA sponsor had acquired PR too;
- the child's residency (and school record) in UK doesn't prove this by itself.
So suggest sending in all PR supporting evidence from mother all over again &/or her PR card.
(You need to show both identities, demonstrate direct family member relationship, prove residency of child plus PR status of mother).

[adinmat]

/sadface......

** demonstrate direct family member relationship, prove residency of child **

Child usually does not have anything like an adult: usually no correspondence, no bills, no accounts, and so on. How can I demonstrate all of that?... How others do that? It is getting to the silly point where both parents settle and live in the UK and child is... what? abandoned?

And it does not matter if I applied for PR for a child, I would have to support it the same way, right? Really lost my plot now!

[noajthan]

/sadface......

** demonstrate direct family member relationship, prove residency of child **

Child usually does not have anything like an adult: usually no correspondence, no bills, no accounts, and so on. How can I demonstrate all of that?... How others do that? It is getting to the silly point where both parents settle and live in the UK and child is... what? abandoned?

And it does not matter if I applied for PR for a child, I would have to support it the same way, right? Really lost my plot now!

You have misunderstood (or I was not clear).
I summarised the high-level requirements which include parent/sponsor of EEA child proving parental relationship - as per the guidance you can submit a birth certificate.

For residency, use medical (doctor, dentist, optician, NHS registration) and school registration/report types of letters and documents.
Also any church/temple/mosque &/or youth group memberships. (Obviously a child does not usually have tax, car, voter types of docs).

[adinmat]

Heads up: submitted application through NCS today.

They made me run (literally) for my money, as they requested P60 / payslips as a prove of residency for AN application - and I wasn't ready for this (had all sort of documents proving addresses for few last years - but it was not accepted) - had 30 minutes to produce them..... Luckily I live close by.

Apart from that they actually asked and took letters from schools for MN1 application and pretty much nothing else for a child (nothing to prove the connection between applying mother and a child, like addressed documents linking both). It was all very short listed, I hope they know what they are doing.

On a flip side I corrected them on a fee. LOOOOL. They were using correct fee for AN application and MN2-3 for MN1 application (I guess it was matter of missing that change, and using 7xx value from the past). Lady stated "we've been submitting those applications for children like that since March change". Well congratulations for a paid service we are supposed to trust. Need to double check checking service guys!

I just hope whatever we submitted applications wise is sufficient to at least the point where they may ask for more to prove something, rather than decline the whole lot.

Let's see how it goes.

[noajthan]

Heads up: submitted application through NCS today.

They made me run (literally) for my money, as they requested P60 / payslips as a prove of residency for AN application - and I wasn't ready for this (had all sort of documents proving addresses for few last years - but it was not accepted) - had 30 minutes to produce them..... Luckily I live close by.

Apart from that they actually asked and took letters from schools for MN1 application and pretty much nothing else for a child (nothing to prove the connection between applying mother and a child, like addressed documents linking both). It was all very short listed, I hope they know what they are doing.

...

I just hope whatever we submitted applications wise is sufficient to at least the point where they may ask for more to prove something, rather than decline the whole lot.

Let's see how it goes.

Hopefully you are talking about mother's proof of residency etc - if it is mother who is the remaining, valid EEA sponsor then she needs to be the one proving she was in UK. (As a BC you can't be the EEA sponsor any more).

NCS are good, in general, but they are only agents at the end of the day.

Good luck.

[adinmat]

Yes, it is mother's proof of residency

Well, NCS are agents, you are absolutely correct. But one of the checks they do is "Check if a correct fee is submitted", therefore this would be one of the things where we should be able to rely on them In the end of the day thats what we pay for.