Permanent Residence Card Question

[chrees]

Hi,

Could you please advise me if I could be eligible for a permanent residence card? I could not find an answer to my question on the forum.

I am an A8 EU national and I guess I have historically met the 5 year residency criterion (between 2004 and 2009). Since then I lived in other EU countries (visiting UK at least once a year) and moved back to UK in Sep 2015.

Here is more detail of my circumstances:

1. Year 1
Aug 2004 – Oct 2004 – I lived in London doing an unpaid internship in London (was not registered at WRS)
Oct 2004 – Jun 2005 – moved to Germany to study (I would hope this qualifies for the extraordinary 12 month exemption
Jul 2005 – moved back to London to take up a full time employment

2. Year 2-4
Aug 2005 – Jul 2008 – in full time employment in London (was WRS registered) ; left UK for no more than 5-6 weeks a year for holiday and business journeys

3. Year 5
Aug 2008 – Feb 2009 – in full time employment in London
Mar 2009 – Jul 2009 – did not live in the UK; I would hope this qualifies for the regular up to 6 months exemption

4. Jul 2009 – Aug 2015 – I lived in other EU countries visiting UK at least once a year

5. Sep 2015 – moved back to the UK to take up a full time employment

Now, my understanding is that I qualified for the right to reside permanently in the period of 2004-2009 and never lost it since I visited UK regularly. Could you pls confirm if I am right in my assumption and if I could apply for the permanent residency card?

Really appreciate you help here.

Thanks,

chrees

[noajthan]

Hi,

Could you please advise me if I could be eligible for a permanent residence card? I could not find an answer to my question on the forum.

I am an A8 EU national and I guess I have historically met the 5 year residency criterion (between 2004 and 2009). Since then I lived in other EU countries (visiting UK at least once a year) and moved back to UK in Sep 2015.

Here is more detail of my circumstances:

...

Now, my understanding is that I qualified for the right to reside permanently in the period of 2004-2009 and never lost it since I visited UK regularly. Could you pls confirm if I am right in my assumption and if I could apply for the permanent residency card?

Really appreciate you help here.

Thanks,
chrees

1. Year 1
Aug 2004 – Oct 2004 – I lived in London doing an unpaid internship in London (was not registered at WRS) Not genuine & effective work; even if it was 'work' the lack of WRS negates it; did you have CSI? - if not you're not even 'self-sufficient'.

Oct 2004 – Jun 2005 – moved to Germany to study (I would hope this qualifies for the extraordinary 12 month exemption No - as not yet exercising treaty rights in UK

Jul 2005 – moved back to London to take up a full time employment This is just your grace period - no sign of treaty rights being exercised as a qualified person here; were you jobseeking? registered? got evidence?

2. Year 2-4
Aug 2005 – Jul 2008 – in full time employment in London (was WRS registered) ; left UK for no more than 5-6 weeks a year for holiday and business journeys PR clock could have finally started - rock-solid documentary supporting evidence required; any absence over 6 months in 12 month period (based on anniversary of arrival in UK) breaks continuity of residence and resets PR clock back to zero.

3. Year 5
Aug 2008 – Feb 2009 – in full time employment in London PR clock running - rock-solid documentary supporting evidence required; any absence over 6 months in 12 month period (based on anniversary of arrival in UK) breaks continuity of residence and resets PR clock back to zero.

Mar 2009 – Jul 2009 – did not live in the UK; I would hope this qualifies for the regular up to 6 months exemption Count it around anniversary of arrival in UK

4. Jul 2009 – Aug 2015 – I lived in other EU countries visiting UK at least once a year You have not yet acquired PR since Aug 2005; absence over 6 months in 12 month period (based on anniversary of arrival in UK) breaks continuity of residence and resets PR clock back to zero; all you did in this time was visit UK - no value in terms of PR.

5. Sep 2015 – moved back to the UK to take up a full time employment Now you're talking: PR lock has restarted (counting from zero); - rock-solid documentary supporting evidence required.

Unfortunately you seem to be on a sticky wicket. I think you have blown it, there is no evidence that you ever acquired the holy grail of PR.
Even if you had there is no evidence you would have retained PR status during your long absence from UK.

See observations above.

In a nutshell, you seem to have started exercising treaty rights (as a worker) only in August 2005.
It appears your PR clock would have only started then.

If you changed employer in the first 12 months of work did you re-register for WRS

On my analysis of your stated facts, you had not acquired PR in UK by the time you left to go abroad in early 2009.

Now you have returned to UK and started working since autumn 2015 your PR clock will have started up again (from zero).
Suggest keep your head down, keep working and don't leave UK again for a while.

You obviously now don't have time to acquire PR in the normal way;
you will have to rely on the British sense of fair play and any transitional arrangements that may be put in place for those currently on an EU trajectory in UK.

At the very least, suggest applying for the optional RC to confirm your current status (if you don't already have one since arriving in UK last year).
Good luck.

[chrees]

Thank you very much, noajthan. Let me just clarify some of the circumstances:

1. Year 1
Aug 2004 – Oct 2004 – I lived in London doing an unpaid internship in London (was not registered at WRS) Not genuine & effective work; even if it was 'work' the lack of WRS negates it; did you have CSI? - if not you're not even 'self-sufficient'.
As far as I recall I had CSI back then. I would then assume I was self-sufficient during that time period (and indeed I paid for my stay out of my pocket). Am I right in assuming this is when I started exercising my treaty rights?

Oct 2004 – Jun 2005 – moved to Germany to study (I would hope this qualifies for the extraordinary 12 month exemption No - as not yet exercising treaty rights in UK
If my assumption above is correct I would be exercising my rights at that point of time ad this should count as an extraordinary 12 month exemption, right?

Jul 2005 – moved back to London to take up a full time employment This is just your grace period - no sign of treaty rights being exercised as a qualified person here; were you jobseeking? registered? got evidence?
Apologies if I wasn't to precise enough here but what I meant is that I started a full time job in Jul that year.

2. Year 2-4
Aug 2005 – Jul 2008 – in full time employment in London (was WRS registered) ; left UK for no more than 5-6 weeks a year for holiday and business journeys PR clock could have finally started - rock-solid documentary supporting evidence required; any absence over 6 months in 12 month period (based on anniversary of arrival in UK) breaks continuity of residence and resets PR clock back to zero.
No absences above 6 months in any given year during this period. BTW - I have only had one employer during the whole period.

3. Year 5
Aug 2008 – Feb 2009 – in full time employment in London PR clock running - rock-solid documentary supporting evidence required; any absence over 6 months in 12 month period (based on anniversary of arrival in UK) breaks continuity of residence and resets PR clock back to zero.

As per above - no absence above 6 months during this period. Still with the same employer .

Mar 2009 – Jul 2009 – did not live in the UK; I would hope this qualifies for the regular up to 6 months exemption Count it around anniversary of arrival in UK

Assuming my understanding is right this should be my 5th year, with the absence not exceeding 6 months (Mar - Jul 2009).

Could you pls confirm if my way of thinking holds as per above?

Thank you,

chrees

[noajthan]

Possibly holds water.

if you have good if not unimpeachable documentary supporting evidence, so:
CSI policy (officially translated if not in English);
full documentation relating to study placement - from uni/educational establishment plus associated Erasmus or other supporting docs;
WRS certification;
details of residency in UK to show dates in UK;
date evidence around exit from & return to UK, in order to prove various absences (up to 2009) were within prescribed limits;

from 2009+ rock-solid evidence of residence in UK every year in order to maintain PR (if it has been acquired).
if you can't show you were resident in those years then you risk having lost your PR.

- what were you doing in August 2009?

[chrees]

Hi again. Thanks for the prompt reply.

I should have good evidence o support all the circumstances until 2009 so may give it a try.

Just one question - what do you mean by evidence of residence in the UK from 2009 onward? My understanding was that not being absent for a period longer than 2 years in a row should be sufficient to maintain the PR. I.e. even a one day visit more often that every 2 years should suffice (and I would have evidence for this).

Pls see : https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benef ... in-the-uk/

"Once you've acquired a permanent right to reside, you’re unlikely to lose it unless you stay out of the UK for two years or more in a row. However, you could lose your right to reside if you do something that is not seen as being for the common good. For example, you’ve committed a serious crime or put national security at risk."

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks,

chrees

[chrees]

BTW - not sure if it changes anything but in Aug 2009 I was in full time employment in another EU country (Germany). Looking quickly at my notes my next visit in the UK was in Nov 2009.

[noajthan]

Hi again. Thanks for the prompt reply.

I should have good evidence o support all the circumstances until 2009 so may give it a try.

Just one question - what do you mean by evidence of residence in the UK from 2009 onward? My understanding was that not being absent for a period longer than 2 years in a row should be sufficient to maintain the PR. I.e. even a one day visit more often that every 2 years should suffice (and I would have evidence for this).

...

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks,

chrees

Do you mean "should have" or "do have" evidence?
Starting with CSI? (And not just something like German health cover because you 'forgot' to inform the relevant authorities you had left the country).
You will definitely need solid evidence all round.

Well I wouldn't rely on CAB advice in the context of claiming benefits (nor this forum necessarily!).
All such guidance is just a simplified version of the relevant legislation. The map is not the territory.

The question is if there's a difference between popping back on a day-trip 'visit' and 'being resident' in UK. I don't know that.
And what quality of proof do you have for such flying visits compared to the level of proof for residence?

You may be in uncharted waters here and you're unlikely to be given benefit of doubt.
You can expect HO to take it to the wire and you may well face a refusal (and then a battle to appeal).

[noajthan]

BTW - not sure if it changes anything but in Aug 2009 I was in full time employment in another EU country (Germany). Looking quickly at my notes my next visit in the UK was in Nov 2009.

That may be a problem if you think you acquired the holy grail of PR by August 2009.

Its not clear if you can acquire PR in one country (UK) whilst being absent abroad in another country;
ie not being physically present in the host country on the date when PR is supposedly acquired
- especially as you just carried on 'being abroad' for a few months more.

Don't expect to be given an easy ride by HO on this one. HO plays hard ball in these areas so you could face a refusal.