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Got Refusal kindly help!!!

Archived UK Tier 1 (General) points system forum. This route no longer exists.

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zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Got Refusal kindly help!!!

Post by zahidhsmp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:28 am

Dear All
I have recieved refusal letter yesterday. I have given below full details which may help new HSMP applicants as well as those already applied (but not yet processed). I also need help from experts in this regard.

My details are:
Reference No: 02006*
Application reached: 7th June
Payment deducted: 8th June
The decision letter was dated 5th Jan 2005.
I awarded me 40 points out of claimed 75

The details of points claimed and awarded are:

Education 15 points (as claimend)
Master in Computer Science (1998) from HEC recognized university in Pakistan

Earing 25 points (as claimed)
Employer letter stating detials of salary
Income Tax return

Work Experience 0 points
I am working in IT sector in Pakistan since 1st Oct 1998 in same organization. I joined this organization as Junior Software Engneer after completion of my MSc Computer science degree. I was later promoted to Software Engineer and now I am working a project manager. I supplied a detailed job reference letter with details of each role that I held and also their detailed responsibilities. The starting and ending dates were also mentioned and there is no gap in between.

As I am at present working as Project Manager I claimed 35 points for senior level positoin and was expecting that even they dont consider my senior level postion I will get 25 points for minimum of 5 year job experience. But strangely enough they didnt awarded any points at all and say that my job letter does'nt show that its is a gradutate level job.
Below is what they stated about it in rejection letter.

"Work Experience- 0 points awarded
In order to score points in this section of the application the applicant must provide employer references that illustrates start and finish dates of employment, position held, full job description and list of responsibilities of post and a employer derived document to illustrate your position with your employer’s company structure. This evidence is required to demonstrate HSMP graduate, senior and specialist level work experience as stipulated in HSMP guidance 7.2.1, 7.2.2 and 7.2.3.

The employer derived job description present with your application for the post of Junior Software Engineer was not sufficient to illustrate the post held required you to have a minimum educational standard of UK first-degree level qualification to undertake the duties of the post. Therefore the post has illustrated HSMP graduate level criteria.

We were not satisfied that sufficient evidence was provided to demonstrate that your post of Project Manager involved two years specialist/senior level work as described in the published guidance notes of the HSMP arrangements. With reference to paragraph 7.2.2/7.2.3 of the HSMP guidance notes, you will note that senior level work experience would normally be a role at board level with in a small company where there would be evidence of your active involvement in the day to day running of the company. For a larger company, the expectation is that evidence provided to demonstrate that you have ultimate control of a sector of the business such as Department Head or leader of a project management team. A specialist position is one, which would require a very high level of technical or artistic expertise. We were not satisfied that the evidence provided met the requirement of this category.

We are unable to award points as you have failed to illustrate a minimum of five years graduate level work experience. "

The only mistake by me is that I have not mentioned in my work experience letter that it requires a Masters degree in computer science. Infact as I as started my job after the completion of my degree so this thing was not in my mind. Furthermore two of my colleagues applied job reference letters with same format and they got approvals (one of them has recently applied for 3 year extension) and I was not expecting any such thing.

Now I have two optoins either to send a unpaid review to reconsider my application on the basis of documents that I have orginally provided. The role of Junior Software Engineer in Pakistan requires a master degree in computer science and its a graduate level job. The organization in which I work is quite known both nationally and internationally. Also I can argue that I started my job after completion of my degree and this in itself makes it clear that it requires a masters (equivalent to uk graduation as they have awarded 15 points for it). This is all that I am able to suggest after a night's brain storming. My gut feeling is that it may not work as my job letter doesn't mention that it was graduate level job. If any body else have something in mind I will appreiciate any suggestions.

The second thing is to re apply with full fee and additional documents like
1) A detailed job decription also mentioning against each role that it required master level degree in computer science
2) A letter from the human resourse dept of my organization stating the eligiblily criteria for each role that I held as masters in computer science and further stating that I was fulfilling the eligiblilty criteria when I was appointed/promoted to each role.

Another option can be I first try my luck with reveiw (to save 150 pounds :) ) and if not successful reapply with full fee and additional supporting documents.

I also advise those applying HSMP and those that have already applied (especially from India. Pakistan and other under developed counteries) but not yet reached case worker to produce a clear evidence that the job required the qualifications that are equivalent to Uk gradutate level education.

I request experts to kindly advise me which option is the best.

Regards

kumar78
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:16 am

Post by kumar78 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:00 am

Zahid,

Sorry to hear about your case result.
I have couple of comments here.

1. As Junior Software Engineer sounds like much of a trainee person, I feel that is the reason HO hasn't granted you points the your experience. I think you might have worked on this postition for not a longer perriod since 1998. If it is "true" then you may put a argument that out of this experience still all your experince is more than 5 years.

2. a) Why did you claimed 15 points for HEC accredited Masters Degree.

b) Do you understand that HEC accredited Masters Degree is worth 15 points?
c) How many total year of formal education you had attended to achieve Master Degree?
c) Based on point "b" if the statement is true, does it means all HEC accredited Master degrees worth just 15 points in your country?

zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Post by zahidhsmp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:12 am

Kumar
thanx for your comments

1. I worked as Junior Sotfware engineer for round about 2 years so without that I dont fullfill the minimum of 5 years job requirement. So I think this argument may not work.

2. I claimed 15 points for Masters degree as its 16 years education. My colleague applied before me and he claimed 25 but was awarded 15. That was why I also claimed 15. I dont know about other degrees but the 16 years masters degree is equivalent to UK bachelors.

Regards

kumar78
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:16 am

Post by kumar78 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:55 am

Zahid

You are right I understand the this argument may not work in this sitaution. Do you feel now that you have any base to put review without presenting "extra" documents to defend your experience?

zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Post by zahidhsmp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:01 am

I think not. If I had placed a single line in my experience letter stating that the role required Master degree in computer science I may not have faced this problem. If you or any other expert have any suggestion in this regard than kindly let me know. I have gone through the forum and mostly they havent responded positively to un paid appeals. Only on get further documents that clears the situation can make them change their decision.
Any help will be appreciated

Regards

kumar78
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:16 am

Post by kumar78 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:11 am

What I suggest you to do is following:-

Go for the paid appeal, add another letter stating Company Policies for HR (Human Resource). In which there would be a description of various posts and their bare minimum requirements

For example:

Junior Software Engineer
1. Posgraduate in Computer Science/ Computer Engineering from reputed local or foreign institute.
2. preferably 6 month of experience can be fresh candidate.
3. Problem solving skilling

Software Engineer
1. Posgraduate in Computer Science/ Computer Engineering from reputed local or foreign institute.
2. 1+ year experience.
3. Problem solving skilling
4. --- ---- ---

Software Engineer
1. Posgraduate in Computer Science/ Computer Engineering from reputed local or foreign institute.
2. 2 years + of experience .
3. Problem solving skilling
4. --- ---- ---


I hope this will serve the purpose, and it will only show that you asked your company to give their company policy for HR just to show to Home Office and also it will show that it is an exclusive letter and contents made for you only. :D

VP
Junior Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:33 pm

Post by VP » Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:16 am

zahid

sorry to hear your refusal

I had gone through the same procedure. they had not awarded me a single point for experience. Then after i did appeal and they awarded 50 points. yeah i am very much surprised that after giving me 0 points they awarded me 50 points just by free appeal letter , so i suggest you to do free appeal only and mention detail description of job in appeal letter

All the best for your appeal
Viral

zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Post by zahidhsmp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:40 am

Thanx kumar and VP for your suggestions.

VP your case give me some hope as your were initially awarded 0 points and after unpaid appeal they award your 50 points. Just want to know did you have mentioned initially in your job experience letter that it is a graduate level job? If you havent mentioned it in your letter than my scenario is exactly like you.

It means I can state in review request that
"I had completed my Masters in Computer Science when I was selected and appointed as Junior Software Engineer. This role required a Master degree in computer science/software engineering as per HR policy or my organization and I fullfil the eligibiligy criteria for that role. The role of Junior Software Engineer, Software Engineer and Project managers are graduate level jobs so my experience should be considered as graduate level experience and points should be awarded accordingly"

Do you think any other thing that i need to mention in review request.

Regards

zombie1979
Newly Registered
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:25 am

Post by zombie1979 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:01 am

Sorry to hear about your rejection Zahid.
I think the best way to move forward would be to try an unpaid appeal first.I think you should clearly tell HO that the positions you held all required a graduate degree to begin with.
Can you present/explain your case by phone or does it all have to be via email/snail mail?
All the best to you,buddy.

zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Post by zahidhsmp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:10 am

Dear zombie1979
thanx for your concern and suggestions. indeed i will first go for unpaid appeal. in it my main emphasis is to elaborate my responsibilities in the experience letter that i have already mentioned against each role and justify that such tasks and responsibilities require a graduate level degree. i think it is almost impossible to contact them on phone these days especially from out of the country. also they take a lot of time to respond to mails. so only option is to send the unpaid review and see what happens.

Regards

Mobig
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:01 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by Mobig » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:26 am

Hei Zahid, sorry to hear this shocking news. I was not expecting this result. I will advise you to take concentration on your reference letter. I might send you a specimen if you like for your consideation.
Actually all these are documents which speak their selves in HSMP assessment, whenever you send a weak document you have to bear. With your strong reference letter you can qualify with unpaid appeal.

Developer
Newbie
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:31 am

Post by Developer » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:31 am

Hi zahid,

I agree to kumar78 points - go for paid review. And state everything specifically in your covering letter.

gunjans
Member
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:11 am
Location: India

Post by gunjans » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:49 am

Mobig wrote: I was not expecting this result. I will advise you to take concentration on your reference letter. I might send you a specimen if you like for your consideation.
Actually all these are documents which speak their selves in HSMP assessment, whenever you send a weak document you have to bear. With your strong reference letter you can qualify with unpaid appeal.
Hi Mobig,

Can u plz post the specimen on this post so that all member can refer the same.

zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Post by zahidhsmp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:54 am

thanx mobig and Developer for ur suggestions.
Developer i too agree with the kumar78's point but i first want to try my luck with unpaid appeal. the case of VP has given me some hope that even unpaid appeal if properly presented can sometimes work. however unfortunately if i m again refused in unpaid appeal than the only way is the paid appeal with additional documents.

Mobig I have also emailed you on ur hotmail address. kindly have a look at it.

Regards

Mobig
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:01 am
Location: London
Contact:

Post by Mobig » Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:12 pm

Hei Gunjans, I do apologize that i can't post it on the board due to some reasons. Hope u will understand.
Zahid, i could not get your mail till now.

zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Post by zahidhsmp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:50 pm

Mobig I emailed you. I dont know why it havent reached you. However now I have send private message to you. Kindly have a look.

Regards

Man of God
Newly Registered
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:56 am

Post by Man of God » Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:41 pm

Hello Zahid,
Deeply skocked on your result.i was not expecting this,specially in your case.no advise of review.please resubmit fresh new application.all the mistake was in your poor reference letter.dont disturb with this result and try once again with solid references.if any doubt,please keep in touch.we are all with you always.

zahidhsmp
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:47 am
Location: London, UK

Post by zahidhsmp » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:55 am

Man of God
thanx for ur comments and concern. I will definitly go for appeal. I hope I will get positive response this time.
It was previously discussed in this forum that when case worker think to ask for additional documents? I think it totally depends upon the case worker. I mean it dont matter that you are on margin as I was on margin and only the experience points have become the result of the refusal. So it totally depends upon the case worker.
The best option I think is to never leave any thing upto them that they will understand it. As I have done. I though that the role of Junior Software Engineer requires graduate level job and they may know about it. But they refused it. Every thing should be clearly explained so that you are on safe side.

Regards

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