Passport challenges with patronymic name

[LenaRu]

Same situation. They force me to change my internal Russian passport to have my patronymic name omitted. They say "We have a one name policy and therefore all passports must agree. I am aware that it is a choice to have a patronymic name added at birth and should someone wish to change this they can do so after the age of 14. I am also aware that change of names are allowed in Russia. Given your naturalisation certificate was issued without your patronymic it appears you did not request this on your certificate and as a result it appears that you did not wish to use the name. If you are unable to comply with our policy, your application will be failed and any original documents will be returned. If I do not hear from you by 5th August your application will be withdrawn, documents will be retained for 1 year and then destroyed". I don't think that reapplying again can change the situation. They perhaps have some sort of a central bank of data. We need to persuade them that changing the internal passport with change of a patronymic to a "-" is impossible for us.

[secret.simon]

Although I am not from Russia, where I come from, the patronym is automatically the middle name of the person (unless it is a female, in which case it switches to the husband's name after marriage. So, if female ABC marries male XYZ, after marriage, she becomes AXZ).

What I did was that I treated the patronym as the middle name across all applications and so the patronym is listed as part of my given name, even though it would be incorrect to refer to me by that name. Much easier to conform than to fight the system.

Is it possible for the patronym to be added to your given names in the Russian (external) passport? That may cause issues with the naturalisation certificate, but that may be easier for the Home office to fix than issues across two countries.

[LenaRu]

Although I am not from Russia, where I come from, the patronym is automatically the middle name of the person (unless it is a female, in which case it switches to the husband's name after marriage. So, if female ABC marries male XYZ, after marriage, she becomes AXZ).

What I did was that I treated the patronym as the middle name across all applications and so the patronym is listed as part of my given name, even though it would be incorrect to refer to me by that name. Much easier to conform than to fight the system.

Is it possible for the patronym to be added to your given names in the Russian (external) passport? That may cause issues with the naturalisation certificate, but that may be easier for the Home office to fix than issues across two countries.

Simon, it is not possible for my patronymic name (an adjective which is made from the name of my father - very specific Russian tradition) be transliterated in my Russian or 'international' (external) passport. I have my surname, forename and patronymic name written in Russian and only surnamena and forename transliterated. This why I have used for all purposes outside Russia only my forename and my surname. I had no problem. But with this particular caseworker....

[noajthan]

To avoid confusion & jumbled responses, I have moved your topic to its own thread (this one).

[olgachilds]

Same situation. They force me to change my internal Russian passport to have my patronymic name omitted. They say "We have a one name policy and therefore all passports must agree. I am aware that it is a choice to have a patronymic name added at birth and should someone wish to change this they can do so after the age of 14. I am also aware that change of names are allowed in Russia. Given your naturalisation certificate was issued without your patronymic it appears you did not request this on your certificate and as a result it appears that you did not wish to use the name. If you are unable to comply with our policy, your application will be failed and any original documents will be returned. If I do not hear from you by 5th August your application will be withdrawn, documents will be retained for 1 year and then destroyed". I don't think that reapplying again can change the situation. They perhaps have some sort of a central bank of data. We need to persuade them that changing the internal passport with change of a patronymic to a "-" is impossible for us.

There would be no patronymic on your brp, so how come they caught a wind of it at all? you actually sent them the internal - VNUTRENNI -- passport? Huge mistake it was.
Nonetheless, it is nonsence .
I am not an expert in passports, but as far as I know, in respect of this whole "multiple identity" issue, on which I read their own guidance, they have wide discretion if you explain to them that this is not really a multiple identity issue. This is taking it entirely over the top.
Sound like your caseworker is particularly unelightened. Surely they have some manager, or you can ask for a review or complain?

[LenaRu]

spammer, thank you for your support

Yes, I sent to them my internal passport and it was my huge mistake, you right. But my internal passport is for internal use only and they confirm their acknowledge of the fact.

You right also that it is a nonsense as I have no patronymic in any of my docs here in the UK as all of them are issued on the base of my Russian international passport. The caseworker is enlightened enough to read in Russian and to find that in my Russian international passport I have name, surname, patronymic written in Russian! My patronymic is not transliterated, this why I have never used it outside Russia. They are continuing to say, however, that there is my patronymic name in my international passport. I appreciate their knowledge of Russian language-:( but nobody else during seven years of my living and working in the UK have never cared about my patronymic in my Russian passport.

[Wanderer]

My Russian partner has no patronymic in her UK passport because it wasn't there as you say on her Russian travelling passport in transliterated form (though it was there in Cyrillic), never been an issue.

Bigger issue has been 'Nadezhda' becoming 'Nadezda' halfway down the line for some reason....

[olgachilds]

spammer, thank you for your support

Yes, I sent to them my internal passport and it was my huge mistake, you right. But my internal passport is for internal use only and they confirm their acknowledge of the fact.

You right also that it is a nonsense as I have no patronymic in any of my docs here in the UK as all of them are issued on the base of my Russian international passport. The caseworker is enlightened enough to read in Russian and to find that in my Russian international passport I have name, surname, patronymic written in Russian! My patronymic is not transliterated, this why I have never used it outside Russia. They are continuing to say, however, that there is my patronymic name in my international passport. I appreciate their knowledge of Russian language-:( but nobody else during seven years of my living and working in the UK have never cared about my patronymic in my Russian passport.

why are you calling me a spammer? just curious. that's sort of weird.

the thing is, I am Russian as you can probably tell from my actual user name, and thousands of Russians have got British passports with no problem, while ALL of them have the same situation.

Obviously all Russian external passports have patronymic in Russian and only last/first name in latin alphabet.

I know dozens of Russians people who gotten British passports without any problem, including in the last 12 months, on exactly the same facts. I do not, in this case, refer to issues people have with maiden/married names, which are not Russia-specific.

Your case is absolutely the first one I ever heard of, and if this is a new trend, this represents an absolutely new wave of BIZARRE -- and I always think our govt cannot be more bizarre if it tries, but it always get more bizarre.

Imagine EVERY Russian person naturalising in the UK never being able to get a passport now? Thousands of us trapped on the island forever? This is REALLY fascinating (and scary).

So naturally my first instinct was to try and understand what is it that distinguished your case from all the others -- something you could have done, that flagged this whole thing for them (and even though you say they have then noticed your external passport also contains the patronymic, my guess was correct, wasnt it, that it was you sending them a VNUTRENNI passport that has caused this).

Your position -- for the sake of sanity -- should be that this is NOT PART OF NAME. That is why it doesnt say first name, middle name or whatever, patronymic is a permanent reference to your father, not somehting you can change, or, for that matter, get rid of.

That is not entirely true, those of us who have Russian citizen children born in English speaking countries, know that it is well possible for such a child to have a full set of Russian docs without a patronymic, but this really only happens if there isnt one on a birth certificate. Even more so, years ago creative consuls in the United States offered to ADD patronymic to Russian documents of US-born children, but thankfully (as I see now) only those who did not have a middle name already, In my daughter's case they put her middle name in "patronymic " field, so her OTCHESTVO is Kate ))

However, the fact remains the same -- patronymic is NOT a part of name! It is reference to parentage.
In some countries, reference to parentage becomes a part of name, such as India, where father's first name becomes a surname.

But in Russia patronymic is legally distinct from a name and therefore cannot be changed or dropped. THIS is what you should write to them. Lest all of us will now suddenly have the problem. All what, 100 000? I dont not even know how maany Russians have British passports but I am guessing over the years, around this much.

If that happened, it would then become an international issue and probably eventually get resolved. So far what you are being told sounds like kaqkaesque nonsense, so PLEASE do not agree to any of it.

But I wonder if perhaps withdrawing your application and making a new one will land it with a new caseworker? I am basically experiencing a panic attack.







And I also speculate that it is perhaps not necessary to read Russian to see there is anotehr word there.

[olgachilds]

I have actually looked in a Russian external passport.
It does rather unhelpfully, lists both name and Patronymic under "given names", even though in internal documents it is distinct.

I really hate to think we are all in for a new wave of trouble now.

PS one more thing -- Teleperformance, who handle visa applications fro abroad, have long been instructed to add patronymic transliteration to names on visa applications, in fact they always WERE on visas.

it just was so that when a person extended leave in the UK and got a BRP, it would be issued same as passport.

But since entry visas were introduced in 2015, BRPs started to become issued same as visas, with patronymic transliteration. So we have already hundred of people here with BRPs with transliterated patronymic, and passports which dont contain it. I always knew there would be trouble from that, it is csimply that none of those are up for leave extension or naturalisation yet.... but there is some strange drive to consider russian patronymic in fact a part of name, on all fronts.

[Casa]

Re your query about 'spammer', it would seem that LenaRu has used a word in their posts that is being auto changed by the Board's word censor.

[LenaRu]

Hi, Olga, I am extremely sorry "to call" you spammer - I have never done! Is is an automatic correction.
My vnutrenniy passport caused the problem, yes. You are right at every point about ours patronymics. My daughter has just received her British passport without any troubles about her patronymic in her Russian passport. But me. I have explained to them everything. but they have just repeated to say that "all passports must match". The last email I have from them today says "If you are unwilling to have your Russian passport amended please confirm this and I will proceed to fail". I have nothing to do I cannot change my passport and they are right I don't want to change my patronymic in Russian passport to "nothing". I am not at panic attack, I just hate to waste my time but I will start the procedure of complain. thanks for your support, Olga (I avoid to write your whole nickname as the system might change it again(((

[avarty]

Hi LenaRu,

Hope you've successfully resolved this issue? Would you mind sharing an update?
I am in a similar situation at the moment, really puzzled what to do next.