Almost divorced Non-EEA wants to apply for Family Permit

[Patrick2]

Hi Guys

I am a South African and yes my divorce will be finalised in 6weeks time in the UK. I receive letters from the court, informing me of the proceedings. My eea wife and 9 year old daughter live in England. My question is: How can I apply for a family permit, if I have no supporting documents from my wife? Example her ID/Passport document, proof of her employment/wage slips?

We have been separated for 5 years now, lived together for 1 year in the UK but there is absolutely no communication between us. How is it even possible for me to return to the UK and build some kind of relationship with my daughter. Do I take my chances and apply on a family permit application form and pour my heart and soul out on the last page of the application, in the hope that my visa will be issued.

Any help/advice would really really be very much appreciated.

[noajthan]

Hi Guys

I am a South African and yes my divorce will be finalised in 6weeks time in the UK. I receive letters from the court, informing me of the proceedings. My eea wife and 9 year old daughter live in England. My question is: How can I apply for a family permit, if I have no supporting documents from my wife? Example her ID/Passport document, proof of her employment/wage slips?

We have been separated for 5 years now, lived together for 1 year in the UK but there is absolutely no communication between us. How is it even possible for me to return to the UK and build some kind of relationship with my daughter. Do I take my chances and apply on a family permit application form and pour my heart and soul out on the last page of the application, in the hope that my visa will be issued.

Any help/advice would really really be very much appreciated.

Unfortunately once divorced your wife cannot sponsor you for a FP.
How long have you been outside UK?
How long have you been married?

[Patrick2]

The last time I was in the UK was in 2013 and we have been married since October 2007.

[noajthan]

The last time I was in the UK was in 2013 and we have been married since October 2007.

Unfortunately, even if you had residence in UK via your spouse/sponsor before (or even PR status) you will have lost it by now.
So retained residence does not appear to be an option.

As daughter appears to have a carer/responsible adult in UK there doesn't seem to be any opportunity under the more esoteric routes (Zambrano/Chen etc) either.

And you will have no basis on which to enter and reside in UK once you are divorced.
That is unless you apply for a visa in your own right under UK domestic regulations, eg Tier 2, Tier 4 etc.

[Patrick2]

That is very sad to hear and your reply is much appreciated, however correct me if I'm wrong. Does the HO website not mention, a retained right of residence can be obtained even though a marriage has broken down?

Here's the tricky part I must admit and somewhat confusing, they state that yes it is possible but how am I suppose to submit supporting documents, when the relationship has broken down (sorry im just thinking out loud i guess)

Okay as much as I want to admit defeat, I am going to try to apply for a FP again and pray very hard that they accept it. All I want to do is see my daughter grow up

Again...Thank you for your time and effort in replying to me.

[noajthan]

That is very sad to hear and your reply is much appreciated, however correct me if I'm wrong. Does the HO website not mention, a retained right of residence can be obtained even though a marriage has broken down?

Here's the tricky part I must admit and somewhat confusing, they state that yes it is possible but how am I suppose to submit supporting documents, when the relationship has broken down (sorry im just thinking out loud i guess)

Okay as much as I want to admit defeat, I am going to try to apply for a FP again and pray very hard that they accept it. All I want to do is see my daughter grow up

Again...Thank you for your time and effort in replying to me.

Most unfortunate. This should all have been addressed years ago really.

There is ROR but you have to have residence to retain.
And your continuity of residence in UK has been broken by an absence of around 3 years (and only 6 months absence normally breaks it).

You may even have acquired PR in the period 2007-2012 (if in UK with sponsor as a qualified person from 2007 - your timeline is not clear);
but again such status will have been lost by now (due to 2 years absence).

In terms of documentation for ROR from an estranged partner, the UK Borders Act 2007 is your friend, (but you need to have residence in order to retain it).

[Patrick2]

I understand. I forgot to mention too, that for my FP application in 2013, I had no supporting documents from my wife and my FP was issued. Once I was in the UK, I then applied for my Residence card, sent off the forms but was denied. Reason...no supporting documents for EEA exercising her treaty rights.

So why issue me with a FP in the 1st place, knowing that I will be applying for a RC once I arrive in the UK??? Did I get a case worker on his off day lol

I was thinking of approaching the Polish embassy too, hopefully they are a bit more understanding and their visa applications are a bit more transparent.

[noajthan]

I understand. I forgot to mention too, that for my FP application in 2013, I had no supporting documents from my wife and my FP was issued. Once I was in the UK, I then applied for my Residence card, sent off the forms but was denied. Reason...no supporting documents for EEA exercising her treaty rights.

So why issue me with a FP in the 1st place, knowing that I will be applying for a RC once I arrive in the UK??? Did I get a case worker on his off day lol

I was thinking of approaching the Polish embassy too, hopefully they are a bit more understanding and their visa applications are a bit more transparent.

A FP is just an entry visa.
Things are tougher now. Even married couples planning a life in UK get refused.

The requirements for a RC and a FP are different. Just because someone is granted a FP doesn't mean the RC is granted; and circumstances can change.

Even if you are granted a FP (doubtful) it will only be for 6 months. The mitigating factors (estrangement, impending divorce etc etc) are all reasons for a refusal as it will be clear you don't have a viable sponsor.
You will have no basis to remain and reside in UK after that.
Going underground will not fly, HO plays hard ball these days.

Not sure on what basis you may gain entry to Poland.

[secret.simon]

The route via the EEA Regulations is pretty firmly shut for you .

Do you have any grandparent who was born in the UK? Alternatively, do you have any claim in your right to either Irish or other EEA citizenship (typically by descent)?

[Patrick2]

Yes i agree the EAA option is shut, got that thanx. My surname originates from German decent but thats a waste of time too. My great granddad was from Germany...so i dont think thats gona work.

Il stay stuck here in South Africa and hope that my daughter reaches out to me as she gets older as il continue to do from my side.

Thanx again for trying for an alternative solution.

[Noetic]

.
Does the HO website not mention, a retained right of residence can be obtained even though a marriage has broken down?

This only applies if you've actually resided in the UK with your spouse for a certain amount of time, not when you've left the country for many years already.

Eg if you had been married for 3 (I think that's the minimum) years and then separate you can apply for retained right of residence. But since you've been abroad for so long there is no residence to retain.

[Obie]

The route via the EEA Regulations is pretty firmly shut for you .

What is the legal basis for your contention?

[Patrick2]

As the other guys have pointed out, this is a hopeless situation. There is nothing legally to contend with. Non-eea dad has no rights whatsoever, thats my conclusion, with all the replies im receiving.

I think il start writing letters to my daughter, hopefully they dont get returned to sender.

Guys i appreciate all your advise but lets face the facts...there is nothing i can do, il see my daughter 1day thats the only thought i can hold onto.

[Obie]

As the other guys have pointed out, this is a hopeless situation. There is nothing legally to contend with. Non-eea dad has no rights whatsoever, thats my conclusion, with all the replies im receiving.

I think il start writing letters to my daughter, hopefully they dont get returned to sender.

Guys i appreciate all your advise but lets face the facts...there is nothing i can do, il see my daughter 1day thats the only thought i can hold onto.

The other guy in question, is arguably wrong, this is why i sought to give him an opportunity to provide the legal basis for his assertion before i state the basis why i think he may be wrong.

[Patrick2]

Obie im listening...its really disheartning to hear that all the replies i have received so far, have been negative. Any suggestions then? To be honest, im not really not sure what to do anymore at this point.

Your feedback on this matter would be much appreciated.

[Noetic]

As the other guys have pointed out, this is a hopeless situation. There is nothing legally to contend with. Non-eea dad has no rights whatsoever, thats my conclusion, with all the replies im receiving.

If non EEA could have been bothered to apply for retention of residence YEARS back when he actually disappeared abroad perhaps he'd have a leg to stand on... You HAD a right but left it for years and have lost that right as a result.

[secret.simon]

Obie im listening...its really disheartning to hear that all the replies i have received so far, have been negative. Any suggestions then? To be honest, im not really not sure what to do anymore at this point.

Your feedback on this matter would be much appreciated.

So would I like to know your thoughts. I was exploring alternatives to the EEA route because as Noajthan's and Noetic's posts suggest, there does not seem to be any applicable and available options under the EEA Regulations. But we always await your elucidation with anticipation.

[Obie]

It is wrong to pray in Aid to the views expressed by others.

If you are going to be making sweeping statement like the EEA route is firmly shot, then you need to state why.

The other posters made statement, but it was not as sweeping as yours. Even though it may be erroneous, i was most troubled by your as it was very assertive and firm.

[Obie]

In law you have a right of residence as a marriage couple, until your marriage is officially terminated.

You have a 9 years old child, have you inquired where they are? have you sought a child arrangement order from the court?

Was your child born in the UK?

Did you seek an Ancillary relief, seeking information on what she has been doing over the last 9 years in the UK. Her earnings?

There is nothing prevents you from seeing a retained right of residence, under the 3 years of marriage route, or access to the child route, provided she is a qualified person.

You could ask the ECO , when you apply for an EEA family permit, to make inquiries in that regards.

You were previously issued an EEA family permit, so they clearly know that you had a genuine marriage, the fact that you ceased living together, does not change much.

[Patrick2]

Your reply brings tears to my eyes (seriously) I will definitely find out about Ancillary relief, how do I enquire about this though?

I'll be honest the Family permit worries me a bit, as i mentioned before i dont have any of my wife's wage slips or her ID/Passport. Should i still go ahead and apply, even though i dont have these documents?

My daughter was born in the UK yes.

[Obie]

What is the position of your child? how are the divorce papers being served.

Surely you must know where they are?

How come there is no arrangement in place for you to see you 9 years old, or have you abandon your right and abdicated your duties as a father, to play a role in her life?

You may have right to stay and reside, but you need to get some fact in place.

Where they reside, information about your 9 years old , her school.

[Patrick2]

Bothered you say, I had tried on several occasions ON MY OWN!!! I dont need to justify my past/current actions to you. I suggest you keep your negativity to yourself, you have provided more than you fair share of advice! Please do not reply to this post, please do not.

Thank you.

[Patrick2]

Obie i have never given up my parental rights and i never will. Yes i know where they live now.

What do you suggest i do now, apply for the court order 1st and then the family permit? The divorce letters are being sent, directly from the court.

[Patrick2]

Hi Obie

The Ancillary relief order, this seems possible only when im in the UK. They mention about attending court hearings etc.

I will go ahead and apply for the family permit.

Is it possible to contact you personally? Your advise has proven to be very valuable.

[Obie]

I do not know what to say, I was asking legitimate question to find out how best to assist you.

You have told me I have no right to judge you, which is clearly not what i was seeking to do.

So I am minded not to say something that may be construed as seeking to judge you. This is why i have decided to keep my views and questions to myself.

I normally ask probative questions , with the view to helping a person.