case rejected .....pls help + docs missing

[anishpadela]

Dear Friends,

Unfortunately, my application has been refused and I got my docs back from Ho just beofre a day.

My case details are:
Ref: 1883X
Date of application: 18th May 2004
Decision is made on 15th November, 2004

Now along with refusal, I found some of my orignals also missing...

I applied under 28 years category.
The points I claimed:
Age: 5 points
Education: 25 points Masters Degree
Qualitfication: 50 points with senior or specialist level work experience

I have bachlors degree in Science and later on post graduate diploma in Business Management and I

claimed 25 points for that.

In education, I have more than 5 years experience in total with more than 3 years as Marketing

Manager with firm of about 100 employees in total. I have send all teh necessary documents like experience certificates with job description, letters of reference, employments contracts, personal statements depicting all the day to day activities.

The reply from HO was like:

Quote, "Academic Achievements: 15 points awarded

With reference to paragraph 7.1.1 of the HSMP guidance instructions, you will note that qualifications have to be equivalent to the recognised British stanrdard of Bachelor's, Master's or PhD to be awarded the respective points for each level of qualification. The Post Graduate Diploma in Business Management you submitted with the application was checked against guidance given by the National Academic Recognition Information Centre for the United Kingdom (UK NARIC).

The qualification, gained in India is not equivalent to a Masters. It is equivalent to a Diploma but this is not Masters level.

However, the BSc gained in India is equivalent to a British degree and therefore the points have been awarded accordingly.

Work experience - 35 points awarded

We were not satisfied that sufficient evidence was provided to demostrate that your previous work experience involved two years specialist/senior level work as described in the published guidance notes of the HSMP guidance notes, you will note that senior level work experience would normally be a role at board level within a small company where there would be evidence of your active involvement in the day to day running of the company. For a larger company, the expectation is that evidence is provided to demostrate that you have ultimate control of a sector of the
business such as Department Head or leader of a project management team. A specialist position is one that requires a very high level of technical or artistic expertise. We were not satisfied that the evidence provided met the requirements of this category.

However, we were satisfied that the references you supplied demostrated grduate level experience and have therefore awarded the points accordingly". Unquote

Now I am left with two options: One is appeal for review without any additional docs and another is paid appeal where I can submit new docs with same reference no.

Now looking at their requirement where they stated " For a larger company,....management team." I am in control of 100 people and heading a complete business unit with all the production dept., accounts dept. and merchandising dept. reporting to me accoridng to hierarchy, duting and responsibilities. All was stated in the job description and personal statements...

The question is what more we can send/say in paid appeal/review respectively...I have observed many rejected cases like noddy214..first rejected and later on got approval after review or new applicaiton so I request all of your to share your views or suggestions that how can I go about, with what approach??

What is the procedure to notify about missing docs and how can we get them back....??

Please dont desitate if you need more info about my application.

Thanks in advance.

Rgds
Anis

[gunjans]

it's very discouraging news..... very sorry for that.

I advise for an unpaid appeal as ur organization is big enough to consider as specilist role.

for doc's ........ call them and ask about it........ how can they do this.

It's really scary .for all ppl , how can they be so libral abt doc's.

One thing i need to ask, ur decision was made on 15th Nov 2004 and how came u recived doc's so late.?

[anishpadela]

it's very discouraging news..... very sorry for that.

I advise for an unpaid appeal as ur organization is big enough to consider as specilist role.

for doc's ........ call them and ask about it........ how can they do this.

It's really scary .for all ppl , how can they be so libral abt doc's.

One thing i need to ask, ur decision was made on 15th Nov 2004 and how came u recived doc's so late.?

Well the docs were returned to UK once due to wrong address...I send email with another one and they sent it...were late due to holidays in between..

The question is how can we justify the specialist role ??? Any hints / suggestions??

[zeke]

Dear Anishpadela,

Can you post the text of the letter and/or other documentation about your Marketing Manager job so that we can see exactly what has already been said about it and what now needs to be said in order to strengthen your case?

Did you claim it to be a senior or specialist role? or both?

Thank you for your post -- the detail in it may help others on the board.

Now we would like to help you...

[anishpadela]

Dear Anishpadela,

Can you post the text of the letter and/or other documentation about your Marketing Manager job so that we can see exactly what has already been said about it and what now needs to be said in order to strengthen your case?

Did you claim it to be a senior or specialist role? or both?

Thank you for your post -- the detail in it may help others on the board.

Now we would like to help you...

Thanks Zeke for the reply...

I calim for senior role...

Here it goes..
1) Experience certificate
Hereby we certify that XXX is working with XXX as Marketing Manager from 19th March, 2002 to date. He is responsible for marketing and merchandising of bed linen products for export market. His main export territory countries are United States, United Kingdom, Europe and Canada.

During his tenure, he developed new customer accounts along with successful introduction of new products. He surpassed his sales target for both years achieving 125% of his sales quota in 2002 and 150% in 2003.

Certainly he is an asset to our company. We wish him similar successes in next year!!

2) Letter of reference
This letter of reference has been given to XXX, Marketing Manager of XXX to depict his job profile and scope of work, while employed with us.

- Complete administration of the factory
- Responsible for market segmentation and analysis with new market development for export for Bed Linen and Home linen products, which includes Bed Sets, Comforters and Pillows. Currently catering to the market demands of United States, United Kingdom, Europe and Canada.
- Designing and implementation of marketing policy of the company in consultation with management and other managers
- Conducting preliminary market survey before the launch of the new products
- Coordinate with the merchandise department in completing export orders starting from procuring fabrics to handling exports documentation and dealing with the banks and finally inward remittance of the bills.
- Implemented and monitored a sales forecasting and tracking program to evaluate marketing progress, improve decision-making and increase sales
- Directed and managed the development and production of advertisement campaigns, catalogues, brochures, flyers and direct mail materials for various industrial guides and journals.
- Continuous monitoring of Sales and Marketing activity to produce sales reports give recommendations and formulate changes, if required.
- Forecasting the business trends based on industry trends and government policy
- Liaison with statutory bodies for necessary approvals for utilities requirements, registration of logos, trademarks and copyrights
- Nominated as Management Representative for ISO: 9001 certification to implement Quality Management System and lead auditor to conduct quality audits at periodic intervals

3) Personal statements
I worte a personal statement sort of letter with little description of company and duties and responsibilities of day to day activities.

I guess I have given what you asked...
Let me know your comments in detail.

[zahidhsmp]

Dear anishpadela
Sorry to hear about ur refusal. we are in the same boat i also recieved refusal few days back. i m planning to apply for paid appeal. just to clear i didnt supply with my original application the "Letter of Reference". i only supplied the experience certificate. can you or any other elaborate further what "Letter of Reference" really are? the details of my refusal are at following link

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2730

Regards

[anishpadela]

Dear anishpadela
Sorry to hear about ur refusal. we are in the same boat i also recieved refusal few days back. i m planning to apply for paid appeal. just to clear i didnt supply with my original application the "Letter of Reference". i only supplied the experience certificate. can you or any other elaborate further what "Letter of Reference" really are? the details of my refusal are at following link

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2730

Regards

Well generally experience letter does not contain elaboration of your duties and responsibilities but it has your designation, starting date and primary responsibility. While you can have more details about your job such as day to day activites in letter of reference... thats it.

I will go through your link and will give my comments.

Anis

[anishpadela]

Dear anishpadela
Sorry to hear about ur refusal. we are in the same boat i also recieved refusal few days back. i m planning to apply for paid appeal. just to clear i didnt supply with my original application the "Letter of Reference". i only supplied the experience certificate. can you or any other elaborate further what "Letter of Reference" really are? the details of my refusal are at following link

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2730

Regards

Zahid

Studied your case...well they gave you 0 points against 35.. it's shocking.
What you intend to do now?? Going for review or paid appeal??

Anis

[zahidhsmp]

Dear anishpadela
I first thought of unpaid appeal but no i think that atleast for the paid appeal is the best option. In the forum I have only found a person with Id VP who have got decision in his favour by unpaid reveiw. i think my experience letter was not so much detailed and it was also not mentioned that my first job required a graduate level degree. now i intend to get the experience letter again from my organization not only mentioning the graduate degree requirement but i will try to further elaborate the already mentioned roles and tasks. apart from this i will also attach the letter from HR dept stating the acedemic requirements for each role that i held.
now i have found about "Letter of Reference" and i m thinking about it. i suggest u to study in detail the posts of VP and noddy. both paid and unpaid appeals are discussed in detail.

Regards

[anishpadela]

Dear anishpadela
I first thought of unpaid appeal but no i think that atleast for the paid appeal is the best option. In the forum I have only found a person with Id VP who have got decision in his favour by unpaid reveiw. i think my experience letter was not so much detailed and it was also not mentioned that my first job required a graduate level degree. now i intend to get the experience letter again from my organization not only mentioning the graduate degree requirement but i will try to further elaborate the already mentioned roles and tasks. apart from this i will also attach the letter from HR dept stating the acedemic requirements for each role that i held.
now i have found about "Letter of Reference" and i m thinking about it. i suggest u to study in detail the posts of VP and noddy. both paid and unpaid appeals are discussed in detail.

Regards

Zahid

Thanks for the reply.
I will study the posts of VP and Noddy...
In fact, I have started new topic inviting both of them sharing their experience much in details....lets see if they come across.

Anis

[MWazir]

anishpadela,

You said you manage over a 100 people and yet this information has not been mentioned in your experience or reference letter?

You also say that you are heading a complete business unit with all the production dept., accounts dept. and merchandising dept. reporting to me accoridng to hierarchy, duting and responsibilities. Again this information is missing from your reference letters. All you say in your job profile is
- Complete administration of the factory

Now that has two problems. The case worker doesnt know what complete administration of a factory is and doesnt know it includes many people of the business unit reporting to you. The second problem is normally all of the above is not the job profile of a marketing manager but that of the general manager or CEO. I am not disputing your job profile just telling you how a case worker might have reflected on it. Since factory administration is not neccesarily under the perview of a marketting manager, this might have caused the case worker to question the credibility of your reference letter. The rest of your profile falls in line with what one would expect from a marketing manager.

If you wish to reapply
1. Then along with your documents, provide an organogram. From the looks of it, you are in a senior (possibly management) position and this will help the case worker arriving at the same understanding.
2. Mention the number of people working under you in the reference letter and specifically mention those that directly report to you.

If you wish to request them to review their decision
- Then try to get in touch with the case worker who handled your case. I think someone have mentioned a way to find out the case worker name. You will need to do a search on the forum.
- If you cannot, then call them up anyway and go through your case with them. They might be able to tell you what they think your documents lack.

[MWazir]

I have delete your other topic - Attn: Noddy214, mwazir and VP
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2762

This doesnt contain any details of your case but merely points to this topic. It clutters the forum and make it difficult for making meaningful searches in the future. Many thanks for your understanding.

[zeke]

I concur 100% with mwazir -- the part about "complete administratin of the factory" may really lie at the heart of your claim that your job should be considered a senior role for purposes of HSMP. So, expand on it greatly.

Provide an organogram. Describe how many people were "below" you in the organizaitonal structure. Describe the duties and responsibilites you have when you do "complete administration of the factory".

Then you may want to provide examples (say, 3 or 4) of projects you have been involved in that demonstrate how you discharged your administrative duties and responsibilities. Keep it brief but detailed : describe the problem, what you did about it, and what the outcome was (and the benefit to the company and/or its employees). You could talk about a business decision, a problem employee, a response to a new governmental regulation, a production problem.

Also, I think you said that you wrote a personal statement which addressed duties and responsiblities and day to day activities -- but I think that HO wants to see that kind of information to come from the employer, i.e., on company letterhead.

(However, I have seen a few posts on these boards which indicate that the HSMP applicant himself, and not the employer, is actually writing the letters -- which are then printed on letterhead and signed by a company official who of course must first approve of the content of the letter) -- the applicants are taking this approach because they realize that they cannot expect the employer to understand all of the detail and subtlety that is required of these letters... it is something to think about.

You may find it helpful to look at my post here, even though the topic originally was on proving graduate level work -- it describes what I have deduced about HSMP evaluators and what they are looking for:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2463

In a nutshell, we can NOT assume that the HSMP evaluator will understand what we are tallking about in our applications unless we very carefully explain, and in detail. (After all, they are reviewing complex applications from folks representing a wide range of occupations and businesses, from many different countries, cultures and business assumptions!)

Clearly, what we are thinking about here for you is a "paid appeal" because you may be offering new information and documentation.

I hope that this helps.

[anishpadela]

I have delete your other topic - Attn: Noddy214, mwazir and VP
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2762

This doesnt contain any details of your case but merely points to this topic. It clutters the forum and make it difficult for making meaningful searches in the future. Many thanks for your understanding.

Dear mwazir

Its OK...as my aim was just to have your attention to this case as I guess your comments could throw more light for future course of action...

Thanks anyway..

Anis

[anishpadela]

Dear Zeke and mwazir

Thanks for the detailed analysis and decisive conclusion of the case.... You have made the right point that some of the key information is missing from reference letter plus the administration of the factory claim shall have more elaboration and details...Now will it be OK if my new refereence letter is clearly divided into two portions where in one I just give details about my role as administrator and other shall be about sales and marketing. Along with duties and responsiblities it shall have details about no. of managing people in total, people directly reporting to me, key areas where decisions are been taken and implemented etc... I am also planning to give job descriptions of the managers of different depts. reporting to me like production, merchandising, accounts etc...will these can be good suportive docs claiming senior level ???? Organigram is must to be attached with no. of people, name of the people and clear hierarchy...but one thing is sure, I have to continue with desingnation of Marketing Manager as thats what company expects me to go for and I have applied as...but administration portion can be combined with that with more specific details and organogram..

Zeke..I studied your reply and reference links also...can you tell me more about the letters you have written to them, I understand your assumptions and obejctive very much valid and to the point but still the presentation part will be crucial in conveying what you feel and want to communicate...can you share the letter or some of the portions of them with us....only if this suits the confidentiality of your case and details...

More form your comments..

Rgds

[anishpadela]

Furhter to my case details, I am just targeting Senior level work experience....which is for more than 2 years. Combining senior level with specialist position may confuse the case further... What say??

[zeke]

Dear Anishpadela,

Your question is near and dear to my heart...see:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2717

But what specifically is it in your job for which you may be claiming a specialist role? Did you contribute a special or unusual skill or knowledge set to the job?

Please share your thoughts with us -- Unfortunately, in my opinion I think that the concept of "specialist" for HSMp is not so well defined in the Guidance Notes...on the other hand, that does leave the door open to applicants thinking perhaps a bit more broadly about their work experience, as you and I have done.

[anishpadela]

I guess one shall have quite realistic approach in justfying role as senior or specialist....I would prefer to go for Senior role as my hierarchy and job profile is enough to support. Specialist would be more applicable to technical expertise such as someone from IT, telecommunications or such industry...What say??

[ChandraSP]

Did you check the other members post with reply from home office? I couldn't get that link now.

HomeOffice is very picky in awarding points in Specialist and Seniority roles. Better showing all kinds of documents to prove it. Even though I scored 110 without considering the specialist role, they asked me additional documentation to support it. And I am not sure whether they awarded any points for them or not..

So, I mean it -- Send ALL kind of supporting documents..


cheers
Chandra

[anishpadela]

Better showing all kinds of documents to prove it. Even though I scored 110 without considering the specialist role, they asked me additional documentation to support it.

Chandra

Can you name some of the docs you think will be required or which you have submitted??

[ChandraSP]

Organogram, and explaining the role and experiance in detail. Along with some published news..etc.

Hope this will be helpful...

-Chandra