English Req. not met with British Bachelors Degree?

[billybreezer]

Hi,

I have just received my HSMP application back with rejection.

Firstly they have not been able to verify one of the colleges I attended 'using standard verifying procedures'..and claim therefore that the Degree certificate I attached is not genuine. However the college is well alive and on the DFES list as well.


More importantly, they seem to say on the first page that the English Language Requirements have not been met. I attached the letter from London Southbank univeristy which has all my details including graduation date with BA HOnours... and also says: ' FULL TIME STUDIES TAUGHT IN ENGLISH'.

On the last page however it says, "You may have been able to meet the English Language Requirements. However, you have been awarded no points because we have been unable to verify some of the supplied documents.' I assume this unverified documents refers to the other college in paragraph one.

SO do I meet English language requirements or not?:-)

Any input greatly appreciated.

[vinny]

Degree taught in English

You can also demonstrate you meet the English language requirement if you hold a degree equivalent to a United Kingdom bachelor level (as verified by the NARIC) and your course was taught in English.

If you have a qualification which does not equate to United Kingdom bachelor level (i.e. it is of a higher or lower level), this will not be accepted as evidence of your English language ability.

See also HSMP caseworker guidance > English language.

"London South Bank University" is on The Register of Education and Training Providers list. "South Bank" is two words in the Register. I wonder if they misspelled the name or didn't search via its address?

If they had recognized your BA degree as being genuine then they would conclude that you did meet with the English requirements.

[kmsr1234]

My dear billybreezer,

I got to know ur case very well.......

It happened to one of my colleagues as well........

First of all there is no problem with your academic documents submitted to the home office..........

The problem was that even though u have graduated from a british university IT IS MANDATORY TO PROVIDE A LETTER ON A UNIIVERSITY LETTER HEAD THAT THE DEGREE WAS TAUGHT IN ENGLISH BOTH WRITTEN AND SPOKEN........

It is not sufficient to provide a certificate that states the degree achieved and medium of instruction.........

Do ask me any queries u have mate...

Cheer's!

[flanker]

Paragraph 13 of Annex E on page 40 of the HSMP guidance document says you need to provide your degree certificate and:

An original letter from the awarding body on the official letter headed paper. The letter should confirm your name, the qualification obtained, the date of the award and whether or not the course was taught in English.

The problem was that even though u have graduated from a british university IT IS MANDATORY TO PROVIDE A LETTER ON A UNIIVERSITY LETTER HEAD THAT THE DEGREE WAS TAUGHT IN ENGLISH BOTH WRITTEN AND SPOKEN........

The instruction says the letter from the uni only needs to state that the degree was taught in English. It does not say that the letter needs to mention that the degree was taught in english both written and spoken.

This does not make sense. Maybe the rejection has nothing to do with English Language requirement?

How many points were you awarded for Qualification, Previous Earnings, UK Experience and Age?

It would be useful if you can reproduce here (word by word):

1) The original letter from your university, and
2) The rejection letter from the Home Office.

Then maybe we can try and see what has gone wrong.

[billybreezer]

Paragraph 13 of Annex E on page 40 of the HSMP guidance document says you need to provide your degree certificate and:

An original letter from the awarding body on the official letter headed paper. The letter should confirm your name, the qualification obtained, the date of the award and whether or not the course was taught in English.

The problem was that even though u have graduated from a british university IT IS MANDATORY TO PROVIDE A LETTER ON A UNIIVERSITY LETTER HEAD THAT THE DEGREE WAS TAUGHT IN ENGLISH BOTH WRITTEN AND SPOKEN........

The instruction says the letter from the uni only needs to state that the degree was taught in English. It does not say that the letter needs to mention that the degree was taught in english both written and spoken.

This does not make sense. Maybe the rejection has nothing to do with English Language requirement?

How many points were you awarded for Qualification, Previous Earnings, UK Experience and Age?

It would be useful if you can reproduce here (word by word):

1) The original letter from your university, and
2) The rejection letter from the Home Office.

Then maybe we can try and see what has gone wrong.

Thanks for your reply guys.
I will definitely scan both the letters and put them up here.

My letter was on Univeristy headed paper with the date degree was attained , my name, course name, univeristy address/phone, university stamp, name of person who signed...and said:

'FULL TIME STUDIES TAUGHT IN ENGLISH'....is this wording wrong?

Thanks again..

[billybreezer]

muhuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

[gordon]

I think there are two issues to consider, the first is minor whilst the second is quite serious:
1. Your letter from the Univ of Greenwich (as distinct from London South Bank Univ) did not indicate that the BA(Hons) degree had actually been awarded or conferred. It merely said that you studied on that course and that you had completed it. And the line about English should have been a proper sentence relating to the degree course itself, as that presumably was the point of the entire letter !
2. The issue of inability to verify evidence is easily rectified, but their letter indicated a further failing that was categorically fatal for your application: they found your evidence from LCCMS to have been 'not genuine'. Their use of the subjunctive throughout the refusal reflects this - they might have assigned the other points, but once they came to the documents that were 'not genuine', there was no reason to bother with confirming further points. In my view, this is the crucial problem that you must address, and discussion about English-language letters is trifling in comparison.
AG

[flanker]

billybreezer,

I think the issue has to do with the evidence that you have submitted, and that the HO are not convinced that those evidence are genuine.

Firstly, they have not awarded you any points for qualification because they could not verify the validity of your degree.

Secondly, they mentioned that the evidence you submitted for previous earnings is not genuine.

The rule is very clear on this. If they think you have submitted false evidence, then you will fall for automatic refusal, which is why I think you have been awarded 0 points throughout.

And of course, if they think your degree is not genuine, then you would not have passed the english language requirement.

[billybreezer]

I think there are two issues to consider, the first is minor whilst the second is quite serious:
1. Your letter from the Univ of Greenwich (as distinct from London South Bank Univ) did not indicate that the BA(Hons) degree had actually been awarded or conferred. It merely said that you studied on that course and that you had completed it. And the line about English should have been a proper sentence relating to the degree course itself, as that presumably was the point of the entire letter !
2. The issue of inability to verify evidence is easily rectified, but their letter indicated a further failing that was categorically fatal for your application: they found your evidence from LCCMS to have been 'not genuine'. Their use of the subjunctive throughout the refusal reflects this - they might have assigned the other points, but once they came to the documents that were 'not genuine', there was no reason to bother with confirming further points. In my view, this is the crucial problem that you must address, and discussion about English-language letters is trifling in comparison.
AG

Thanks Gordon and Flanker very much.

Gordon:
1.) For the English letter, it is actually mentioned in the letter 'successfully completed the program on 14/9/2006...when they were awarded a 2:1...'.........but this is not sufficient? Because it says I was awarded a 2:1 in the degree.

You are correct about the line regarding English that they did not make it a proper sentence. But even this line they added in their own words...they are not willing to put in what I tell them, and I have written to them repeatedly...they say they can only do standard letters
..and this is a proper University!

2.) As regards the 'not genuine' LCCMS qualifications, it is definitely genuine, and I have called the college to verify my details are on their system, the college is on the DFES list...I sent in my degree certificate and letter with Student ID numnber etc....so I dunno why the Home Office can't verify it. You are indeed correct that this was the thing which killed the whole application.

Do you think that maybe the Home Office ouldnt get into contact with college?

A) Anyways, even if I can get a new English letter, is it worth spending another £400 to reapply considering that the killer reason of LCCMS non-genuinity is still not clear to me at all? As I said I am on their system, and my previous visa renewal was also done through LCCMS.

OR
B) Should I just wait to be awarded my MBA degree due next month, hopefully before my visa expires on 1 April, and apply for POST STUDY WORK? I understand POST STudy 2 year thing hasnt started yet.

Any advice will be very greatly appreciated.

[gordon]

Re: the English-language letter, there's nothing in the refusal that indicates that the letter would have been rejected on its own merits; I was merely speculating where the letter might have fallen short of the mark, had the caseworker otherwise not had to refuse the application automatically on account of the documents that were deemed 'not genuine'. Technically, the class of degree is assigned in a process distinct from degree conferral.

The fact that LCCMS was mentioned in the earnings section (rather than the qualifications section) in the refusal letter suggests that you submitted that evidence for the purpose of pushing back your claimed earnings period on account of full-time study at LCCMS. You might want to re-examine the letter you obtained from LCCMS for this purpose, and discuss it with them: consider the substance of the letter, its consistency with the degree certificate, the authority of the signatory, and so forth. Even without knowing exactly what the caseworker and his manager were thinking, something was clearly wrong with that letter or degree certificate, or the pair of them when evaluated together. Once they deemed something 'not genuine', they did not have to verify *any* of your evidence: the burden of proof is not on the HSMP team to demonstrate incontrovertibly that the documents were 'not genuine'.

One thing to note: you mention that you submitted a degree certificate from LCCMS; obviously you did not (or could not) claim qualification points for it; but you mentioned it for the earnings section. So where does the MBA come into play, since you're waiting for that degree to be conferred/awarded next month ? Since proper degree certificates are not issued before the degrees themselves are actually conferred, this MBA presumably is something else that you have going. You should consult the university/college international office to determine eligibility for IGS/PSW on the basis of the MBA degree.

AG

[pantaiema]

I think this is again another example again how the applicants is trying to divert the issue of rejection.

He mentioned about London South Bank University. Other member have tried to replied focus on this issue. I also agree that it is highly unlikely that South Bank University in the UK is not recognised.

But We just happened to know with new information that in fact the main issue here is not London South Bank University but the LCCMS College.

Re: the English-language letter, there's nothing in the refusal that indicates that the letter would have been rejected on its own merits; I was merely speculating where the letter might have fallen short of the mark, had the caseworker otherwise not had to refuse the application automatically on account of the documents that were deemed 'not genuine'. Technically, the class of degree is assigned in a process distinct from degree conferral.

The fact that LCCMS was mentioned in the earnings section (rather than the qualifications section) in the refusal letter suggests that you submitted that evidence for the purpose of pushing back your claimed earnings period on account of full-time study at LCCMS. You might want to re-examine the letter you obtained from LCCMS for this purpose, and discuss it with them: consider the substance of the letter, its consistency with the degree certificate, the authority of the signatory, and so forth. Even without knowing exactly what the caseworker and his manager were thinking, something was clearly wrong with that letter or degree certificate, or the pair of them when evaluated together. Once they deemed something 'not genuine', they did not have to verify *any* of your evidence: the burden of proof is not on the HSMP team to demonstrate incontrovertibly that the documents were 'not genuine'.

One thing to note: you mention that you submitted a degree certificate from LCCMS; obviously you did not (or could not) claim qualification points for it; but you mentioned it for the earnings section. So where does the MBA come into play, since you're waiting for that degree to be conferred/awarded next month ? Since proper degree certificates are not issued before the degrees themselves are actually conferred, this MBA presumably is something else that you have going. You should consult the university/college international office to determine eligibility for IGS/PSW on the basis of the MBA degree.

AG

[pantaiema]

Do not rely on what the college have told you. This is irrelevant to HSMP.
I just check it here

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/recognisedukdegr ... y=Category

LCCMS is not on the list.

As regards the 'not genuine' LCCMS qualifications, it is definitely genuine, and I have called the college to verify my details are on their system, the college is on the DFES list...I sent in my degree certificate and letter with Student ID numnber etc....so I dunno why the Home Office can't verify it. You are indeed correct that this was the thing which killed the whole application.

[billybreezer]

Re: the English-language letter, there's nothing in the refusal that indicates that the letter would have been rejected on its own merits; I was merely speculating where the letter might have fallen short of the mark, had the caseworker otherwise not had to refuse the application automatically on account of the documents that were deemed 'not genuine'. Technically, the class of degree is assigned in a process distinct from degree conferral.

The fact that LCCMS was mentioned in the earnings section (rather than the qualifications section) in the refusal letter suggests that you submitted that evidence for the purpose of pushing back your claimed earnings period on account of full-time study at LCCMS. You might want to re-examine the letter you obtained from LCCMS for this purpose, and discuss it with them: consider the substance of the letter, its consistency with the degree certificate, the authority of the signatory, and so forth. Even without knowing exactly what the caseworker and his manager were thinking, something was clearly wrong with that letter or degree certificate, or the pair of them when evaluated together. Once they deemed something 'not genuine', they did not have to verify *any* of your evidence: the burden of proof is not on the HSMP team to demonstrate incontrovertibly that the documents were 'not genuine'.

One thing to note: you mention that you submitted a degree certificate from LCCMS; obviously you did not (or could not) claim qualification points for it; but you mentioned it for the earnings section. So where does the MBA come into play, since you're waiting for that degree to be conferred/awarded next month ? Since proper degree certificates are not issued before the degrees themselves are actually conferred, this MBA presumably is something else that you have going. You should consult the university/college international office to determine eligibility for IGS/PSW on the basis of the MBA degree.

AG

Thanks very much guys, you are being very helpful.

I have been to LCCMS and talked to the Home Office guys as well.


Gordon:
U r right, once they deemed LCCMS qualifications 'non-genuine', they gave me zero points.



Pantaiema

Thanks for your comments as well.

Let me just clarify my studies :

1. LCCMS(Diploma in IT)

2. Univeristy of Greenwich (BA Hons) (Qualifications points claimed on this, and English exemption claimed on this as well)

3. Southbank univeristy(MBA current--to be awarded next month,March 2008, no points claimed)


Now the biggest problem is that LCCMS is not on the DFES register right now, but since I am not claming any points for LCCMS it shouldnt matter. THe point here is that I WAS a Full-Time student when I studied there, and have my qualification certificate etc. Been to the college today, if the DFES thing was so important they wouldnt have received a Visa extension on their college on Feb 12.


Now I have to appeal to the Home office that if the college is not CURRENTLy on the DFES, it shouldnt matter, since I studied a full-time course in 2003-2004. Most importantly, I got my next VISA EXTENSION in 2004 BASED ON THE SAME QUALIFICATION FROM LCCMS. SO if the qualification was genuine then, it should be now as well. They cannot retrospectively apply the rules.

Any comments on this guys please. Thanks very much.

[billybreezer]

Do not rely on what the college have told you. This is irrelevant to HSMP.
I just check it here

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/recognisedukdegr ... y=Category

LCCMS is not on the list.

As regards the 'not genuine' LCCMS qualifications, it is definitely genuine, and I have called the college to verify my details are on their system, the college is on the DFES list...I sent in my degree certificate and letter with Student ID numnber etc....so I dunno why the Home Office can't verify it. You are indeed correct that this was the thing which killed the whole application.

Ah..one more point...Pantaiema...You are absolutely correct that the London College of Computing and management sciences is not on the DFES list for listed or recognized bodies.
But it is on the LIST OF THE Register of Education and Training Providers
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/providersregister/search.cfm

If it is not a genuine college ,why is it there?

The plot thickens.........

[gordon]

A few years ago, they created that Register of Education and Training Providers, as distinct from the recognised/listed bodies in the DfES register. The list hasn't been considered entirely reliable, almost since its creation. See Geoffrey Alderman's comment in the Guardian: Don't put reputable institutions under threat

When, in 2004, the Department for Education and Skills announced that it was minded to establish a register of education and training providers, it seemed that the problem was at last going to be tackled in an efficient and effective manner. As soon as I saw the draft proposals I knew that a clever entrepreneur could get his institution on to the register with comparative ease, and I said so in Education Guardian in October 2004. My prediction, that bogus institutions would survive to fight another day, has unfortunately proved only too true. In February 2005 I reiterated my concerns now that the register had gone "live". Anecdotal evidence began to reach me that bogus institutions were easily able to obtain registration. On September 9 last year I received a letter from a self-styled college of computing in London applying for "affiliation" to my university and offering what was, in fact, a copy of a genuine letter from the DfES giving the good news that the college had secured a place on the register of education and training providers. But I knew - and an email to the DfES confirmed this - that this selfsame institution was on a DfES list of bogus institutions. The government's left hand clearly did not know what its right hand was doing.

I don't know whether LCCMS is on that DfES list of bogus institutions, but if it is, then you might be in a bind. But a 'retrospective' application of 'bogus' status would not come as any great surprise in HO policy, unfortunately.
AG

[billybreezer]

A few years ago, they created that Register of Education and Training Providers, as distinct from the recognised/listed bodies in the DfES register. The list hasn't been considered entirely reliable, almost since its creation. See Geoffrey Alderman's comment in the Guardian: Don't put reputable institutions under threat

When, in 2004, the Department for Education and Skills announced that it was minded to establish a register of education and training providers, it seemed that the problem was at last going to be tackled in an efficient and effective manner. As soon as I saw the draft proposals I knew that a clever entrepreneur could get his institution on to the register with comparative ease, and I said so in Education Guardian in October 2004. My prediction, that bogus institutions would survive to fight another day, has unfortunately proved only too true. In February 2005 I reiterated my concerns now that the register had gone "live". Anecdotal evidence began to reach me that bogus institutions were easily able to obtain registration. On September 9 last year I received a letter from a self-styled college of computing in London applying for "affiliation" to my university and offering what was, in fact, a copy of a genuine letter from the DfES giving the good news that the college had secured a place on the register of education and training providers. But I knew - and an email to the DfES confirmed this - that this selfsame institution was on a DfES list of bogus institutions. The government's left hand clearly did not know what its right hand was doing.

I don't know whether LCCMS is on that DfES list of bogus institutions, but if it is, then you might be in a bind. But a 'retrospective' application of 'bogus' status would not come as any great surprise in HO policy, unfortunately.
AG

Thanks Gordan ..I'll let you know h0w the appeal goes.

[egghead]

Hi there,

I note your story re: refusal of application for HSMP on the basis that they could not 'verify your document' of diploma in IT from London College of Computing and (&) Management sciences.

I have the same problem as well, and when I checked of the DFES register, it IS there, but you have to type 'London College of Computing & Management Sciences' instead of ' London College of Computing and Management Sciences', or else it will fail to appear. However if you code search via postcode it will still come up.

I wonder whether this is the problem with the verification, as I suspect they will not ring the College to clarify.

Will you let me know how your appeal/review went??? Was there any specifc thing you did to make it successful (if it was). Appreciate any help from you. Thanks in advance

[interior]

They obejected on my case as well the same reason for rejection although i have studied in LCCMS for 2 years got master degree from Barbican University but I did not claim any educational points from there as I successfully qualified from my previously Master degree in IT, which was awarded in 2003. My earning period was in 2001. I don't have any idea why they objected on LCCMS and wrote under the earning section. I got 0 point on all section but refusal letter from home office it read under the education section.
" We have assessed this evidence and you may have been able to calim 35 points. However, you have been awarded no points because we have been unable to verify some of the submitted with this application.

and under the Earning Section.

"We have attempted and have been unable to verify the documents supplied with your application, using standard procedures. The documents we have been unable to verify are documents provided from LCCMS.

We therefore cannot be satisfied that the evidence supplied meets the HSMP requirements, and consequently your application hass been refused."

Offcourse London College of Computer & Management Sciences is genuine institution registed with DFES as you can find link below.
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/providersregister/results.cfm

End of 2nd week of March 08 I have applied for review but have not heard from them yet.

[billybreezer]

They obejected on my case as well the same reason for rejection although i have studied in LCCMS for 2 years got master degree from Barbican University but I did not claim any educational points from there as I successfully qualified from my previously Master degree in IT, which was awarded in 2003. My earning period was in 2001. I don't have any idea why they objected on LCCMS and wrote under the earning section. I got 0 point on all section but refusal letter from home office it read under the education section.
" We have assessed this evidence and you may have been able to calim 35 points. However, you have been awarded no points because we have been unable to verify some of the submitted with this application.

and under the Earning Section.

"We have attempted and have been unable to verify the documents supplied with your application, using standard procedures. The documents we have been unable to verify are documents provided from LCCMS.

We therefore cannot be satisfied that the evidence supplied meets the HSMP requirements, and consequently your application hass been refused."

Offcourse London College of Computer & Management Sciences is genuine institution registed with DFES as you can find link below.
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/providersregister/results.cfm

End of 2nd week of March 08 I have applied for review but have not heard from them yet.

Unfortunately, LCCMS is under investigation for being a bogus institute. Until they have decided whether it is bogus or not, ALL HSMP applications will be rejected, but student visa applications will be ACCEPTED.

I know that it is not the fault of students who studied there years ago, but if u studied there it will be an automatic rejection.

The bastards at the college will lie and tell you there hasnt been a raid, but there was a raid in November 2007, all the colleges in that building are being investigated.

The funny thing is that the bastards at DFES still have LCCMS on its website so there are in fact misleading the students who are getting admission there right now! HA!

[interior]

Hi billybreezer,

I finished studying there september 2007 so what you are saying that we can't get HSMP anymore just because of this college, although we are not claiming any points from this college, considering having qualifed for both education & earning.

So there was no point to apply for review?

[egghead]

thanks for your reply billybreezer.

how annoying is that. we all kind of get conned really.

so did you apply to extend your visa under student visa again? i suppose thats the only way forward, or getting a job with an employer thats willing to give us a work permit (yeah right...)

i suppose my best bet is to say please ignore the certificate on my review application

[billybreezer]

Hi billybreezer,

I finished studying there september 2007 so what you are saying that we can't get HSMP anymore just because of this college, although we are not claiming any points from this college, considering having qualifed for both education & earning.

So there was no point to apply for review?

Just to confirm...I have received the result of my appeal..it is negative...same reason..'unable to verify some of your documents'.

I appealed on the basis that since completing my course at LCCMS, I have gone on to complete a bachelors degree from a reconized UNIVERISTY,and an MBA from a recognized university....This should confirm that I am in fact a bona fide student, having spent over £20,000 in higher education in the UK, and should not be held responsible if a college is being investigated over ALLEGED irregularities.


So if any of your previous college has been blacklisted or under current investigation...dont apply for HSMP ..it will be a definite rejection.

Anyways I was not expecting the appeal to amount to much since my lawyer had shown me a similar case which he had followed up to the Complaints Section using similiar reasons i.e...dont blame student for college etc....Negative result.

[billybreezer]

thanks for your reply billybreezer.

how annoying is that. we all kind of get conned really.

so did you apply to extend your visa under student visa again? i suppose thats the only way forward, or getting a job with an employer thats willing to give us a work permit (yeah right...)

i suppose my best bet is to say please ignore the certificate on my review application

If they ignore the LCCMS certificate on your review application,,then your earning period will change to that during which you were studying with LCCMS....you know '12 months out of 15 months'.....so LCCCMS college is found to be 'not genuine', you are not considered to be studying full-time during that period so your earning period will be that period.

[billybreezer]

Do not rely on what the college have told you. This is irrelevant to HSMP.
I just check it here

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/recognisedukdegr ... y=Category

LCCMS is not on the list.

As regards the 'not genuine' LCCMS qualifications, it is definitely genuine, and I have called the college to verify my details are on their system, the college is on the DFES list...I sent in my degree certificate and letter with Student ID numnber etc....so I dunno why the Home Office can't verify it. You are indeed correct that this was the thing which killed the whole application.

THis list is only for DFES Recognized or Awarding bodies....it does not include those who award their own qualification....that list is the DFES list of Education and Training Providers.......

However LCCMS is under investigation and all previous students from there will be rejected for HSMP but not for student visa renewals!!!!!!...YEs thats right, they are still being granted student visa extensions!!...also the college will remain on the DFES list till the investigation concludes.....so more students will get conned till then. Thanks Home Office for allowing dodgy colleges to run openly and providing excellent protection to foreign students who dont know shit about which colleges are genuine in this country and which arent.