EU (France) and Non-EU (Brazil) - Marriage in EU

[ginger4pluck]

I couldn't find any situation close to mine so I decided to open a new topic. I found loads of useful information in this website. Thanks to you I do not sleep at night anymore but anyway was good to see how the way isn't smooth as we though.

- I'm a French citizen living in Ireland for more than 3 years.
- My fiance is a Brazilian citizen living in Ireland for nearly 2 years already (student VISA expiring in May/2008).
- We have been living together for 4 months.

We are going to France at the beginning of February to sort all the papers before getting married, which I believe will be done in April/2008.

Our plan is to stay in Ireland as I'm already settled and he speaks English fluently.

Coming back from France after the marriage:
- What should we do? Apply for a residency for him or a Stamp 4 VISA?
- Which papers would be good to provide for the Irish Immigration Authorities?
- Which precautions shall we take (i.e. joint account, medical insurance, joint home bills, his diploma translated, bank statements)
- Can he stay in Ireland after his VISA had expired (in case we are waiting for a response from GNIB)?

Is there any step by step of applying at GNIB? Any other useful information?

Thanks for any information,

Ginger

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The Irish government usually demands proof of residence in another EU member state before issuing a Residence Card to the family member of an EU citizen. Read all about it in other postings.

I would strongly urge you to carefully document all of your periods of residence (no matter how short) together in France and all other EU member state. Once you are married, any visit to another EU member state counts as residence. (see http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/06 ... -question/ )

If you do not have clear documentation of residence in other EU states, I would suggest that you visit the UK very soon after you are married and before you apply in Ireland using EU1. Even though he can enter the UK without a visa, you should apply for an "EEA family permit" from the UK embassy, and be sure to get an entry stamp when arriving.

When you apply for EU1, include a carefully written letter referring to the law and to your prior residence in other EU member states.

[ginger4pluck]

Thanks for your quick reply! Couldn't sleep before checking the board. I read about this proof of residence in another EU member state here in the board. I always had the doubt of how long should we live in another EU member state before requesting a Residence Card here in Ireland. As the website you mentioned stated: "short periods (a weekend visit) or for long periods (a lifetime)". That makes the issue more clear.

"I would strongly urge you to carefully document all of your periods of residence"; even periods of residence before getting married? We went on holidays for a few places in EU, is that valid?

"you should apply for an "EEA family permit" from the UK embassy"; in the UK embassy in Ireland, France or whatever? Is it hard to be granted this "EEA Family Permit" by the UK embassy? What I understood is that we get married, then we go to an UK embassy and ask for this EEA family permit. After that we go to the UK and arriving there we make sure they stamp his passport. Is that it?

Sorry if I sound too stupid or demanding, I'm just trying to clear the path for me and others in the same situation.

Thanks very much for the informations!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Thanks for your quick reply! Couldn't sleep before checking the board. I read about this proof of residence in another EU member state here in the board. I always had the doubt of how long should we live in another EU member state before requesting a Residence Card here in Ireland. As the website you mentioned stated: "short periods (a weekend visit) or for long periods (a lifetime)". That makes the issue more clear.

"I would strongly urge you to carefully document all of your periods of residence"; even periods of residence before getting married? We went on holidays for a few places in EU, is that valid?

"you should apply for an "EEA family permit" from the UK embassy"; in the UK embassy in Ireland, France or whatever? Is it hard to be granted this "EEA Family Permit" by the UK embassy? What I understood is that we get married, then we go to an UK embassy and ask for this EEA family permit. After that we go to the UK and arriving there we make sure they stamp his passport. Is that it?

Do not loose sleep. You need your rest to see all this through. It will be a long process!

Just to be clear: This is not advise in any formal sense. I do not know details of your situation, and you have clearly not been involved ith your partner for all that long. But I suspect that documenting residence and then pushing hard during the application to point out Irish and EU law will make a positive difference on an application.

Your travels before you were married may not be considered "residence" in the same way (because you were not married), but it is worth also including them (in part to illustrate that you have a history together).

As long as your husband is legally resident in Ireland when you apply for an EEA family permit, and will be when you return, you can apply from whereever. But do it for travel before his student visa expires and after you get married.

Read in detail about Directive 2004/38/EC.

[archigabe]

If you get married in France, he will have to get the 'certificate of no impediment' from Brazil before your Mairie will register the marriage. He also might have to attend an interview in French before they give you permission to marry.
I suggest that you get married before his Student Visa expires.As soon as you get married, he can apply for a 'Carte de sejour' in France and you can both travel back to Ireland and apply for residency and the Stamp4EU Fam card using the E.U1 form which can be downloaded here . As soon as the 'Carte de sejour' arrives, he can pick it up from France and send it to the Dept. of Justice as an additional document.

IF you want to avoid the whole hassle of having to prove prior residency together in another E.U country, you both can move to the U.K using the EEA family permit route.

[ginger4pluck]

Thanks archigabe for all the information. We just came back from France, and if everything goes as planned we will get married in April.

Now, does anyone have any idea of how long is it taking for the Immigration to issue the Stamp 4 or EU1? If it takes too long, we are considering going to UK as Archigabe said.

Is the Immigration denying or issuing more of Stamp 4s, are people succeeding on getting Stamp 4 or EU1? Are some people getting it fast enough to make us give it a shot? What I understood reading the posts is that Stamp 4 are being issued normally and the EU1 are having delays until the judgement of the Kamer's case.

Thanks!

[ginger4pluck]

I've read in another post about asking for EU1 in another country... is this way better than asking it here in Ireland?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I've read in another post about asking for EU1 in another country... is this way better than asking it here in Ireland? :o

Clarification: EU1 is the Irish form for applying for a Residence Card. You could not use that form in other countries.

The Irish are actively trying to discourage families containing non-EU members from moving to Ireland. Most other countries are happy to have EU citizens and their families. So in that way it is “betterâ€

[ginger4pluck]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

The EU1 Form is the way to apply for a Residence Card in Ireland. If we go to the Irish Embassy in France and apply for the Residence Card there to come to Ireland, would that be easier?

Doing it over there already state that we are living in a EU Member country. Or not?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I do not believe there is any opportunity to apply for a Residence Card from the Irish embassy in Paris. That would be far too service oriented.

[archigabe]

You cannot send your passport across border to Irish Department of Justice.

[ginger4pluck]

Well, so here we are... married, living in France and waiting for the Carte de Sejour. My husband got a receipt which allows him to work and live in France while we wait for his residency. We still have plans to go back to Ireland, so... is there anything else we could do while here in France?

His Carte de Sejour will come with a retroactive date; the day he requested, not the day that the Carte de Sejour arrives, which is good news. After having established residency in France for 3 months, what else the INIS could request from us? Medical card? Even after all that can his residency in Ireland be refused? Well... we are still lost, but apparently in the right path, I hope things go smoothly from now on for all of us.

Thanks

[brazuca]

Hi ginger4pluck,
I can say to you, based on my personal experience here, it takes a long wait to get a EU Stamp 4 (FAM), the waiting not even before because immigration department will hold a decision till the same day you start your process. My situation was a long 6 months waiting, my spouse is brazilian (I'm EU) and we used to reside another european country for 1 year before comming to live here. While your spouse waits for a decision, he/she will hold a stamp without working right. For working it'll require a permit, that apply for some professional with salary above 35k. If you can sit back and wait for a 6 month waiting like us, go ahead...

[ca.funke]

Just to mention that GNIB/DOJ don't know themselves what they are doing:

I'm EU (German/Belgian), my wife (Lebanon) joined me in Ireland on a join-spouse visa after marrying in Cyprus, without prior residence elsewhere in the Union.

When she arrived we were told to apply for EU1, and the same day/minute we got stamp 4, and she started a new job 1 week after arriving.

The whole "system" is not a system but a mess.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I'm EU (German/Belgian), my wife (Lebanon) joined me in Ireland on a join-spouse visa after marrying in Cyprus, without prior residence elsewhere in the Union.

When she arrived we were told to apply for EU1, and the same day/minute we got stamp 4, and she started a new job 1 week after arriving.

This is the way the system is supposed to work. This is the way (I understand) it works in Germany. So you experienced a small corner of sanity in the GNIB.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Well, so here we are... married, living in France and waiting for the Carte de Sejour. My husband got a receipt which allows him to work and live in France while we wait for his residency. We still have plans to go back to Ireland, so... is there anything else we could do while here in France?

If you enjoy France, you should settle there! Nice place. I wish I lived there.

Note that you are already resident in France. For residence of under 90 days, there is no particular requirement that you get a Carte de Sejour. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/06 ... -question/ for more information about EU law (including it's equivalent in Irish and UK law)

[MAKUSA]

Hi ginger4pluck,
I can say to you, based on my personal experience here, it takes a long wait to get a EU Stamp 4 (FAM), the waiting not even before because immigration department will hold a decision till the same day you start your process. My situation was a long 6 months waiting, my spouse is brazilian (I'm EU) and we used to reside another european country for 1 year before comming to live here. While your spouse waits for a decision, he/she will hold a stamp without working right. For working it'll require a permit, that apply for some professional with salary above 35k. If you can sit back and wait for a 6 month waiting like us, go ahead...

Hi Brazuka,please did your husband come into Ireland on a C or D visa? Thanks

[brazuca]

She first came with a temporary tourist visa for for 3 months, I think is a visa C. Then before expiring we went to GNIB and issued a type D, family dependent, with a big NOT allowed to work stamped. Also, every time we traveled around europe during immigration the first question was: you work here?

[Ben]

Well, so here we are... married, living in France and waiting for the Carte de Sejour. My husband got a receipt which allows him to work and live in France while we wait for his residency. We still have plans to go back to Ireland, so... is there anything else we could do while here in France?

What's stopping you from coming back to Ireland now? Section 3(2) of SI 656 of 2006, that (controversially) requires evidence of residence in another Member State, has already been fulfilled by your current residence in France (remember, no registration or carte de sejour is necessary if you don't reside longer than 3 months). Could you not just go back to Ireland now?

[ginger4pluck]

Hi Benifa,

We want to do things right, as long as we have the Carte de Sejour, there's no GNIB's request we are not fulfilling. We are in a hurry because we are living with my parents (and of course that is not it's suppose to be) but besides that we are working and saving some money so it's fine to wait until he get his Carte de Sejour.

[ginger4pluck]

Directive/2004/38/EC

We know that already... but we want to do the things in a way that will avoid us problems, we don't want to argue and anything... we just want to show all the papers and say: so what officer?

[ginger4pluck]

ca.funke,

That's good news, in the same day you got a Stamp 4, that's amazing... did she has residency in another EU Member State? I wish that could happen to us... when did you applied?

[Ben]

Hi Benifa,

We want to do things right, as long as we have the Carte de Sejour, there's no GNIB's request we are not fulfilling.

I wouldn't blame you for leaving nothing to chance with the GNIB. However, proof of lawful residence in France (sans Carte de Sejour), could be provided to the GNIB in the way of flight itineraries and passport immigration stamps (in the case of your spouse), together with a letter accompanying the EU1 application, quoting Article 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC:

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

The infamous 3(2) clause of SI 656 of 2006 which states,

These Regulations shall not apply to a family member unless the family member is lawfully resident in another Member State

, does not, however, stipulate for how long the family member must be lawfully resident in another Member State.

Still, if you're happy enough where you are for the time being, then I guess it doesn't matter.