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gordon wrote:You've pointed out yourself the core problem of your argument: the MEng degree 'sort of combines the three year bachelor's and one year master's', but does not do so explicitly. It does not appear that you actually hold the bachelor's degree, if the undergraduate programme were subsumed into the longer programme, terminating at the master's level, and it is with regard to that unheld undergraduate degree that your application failed, since the requirement is that the bachelor's degree certificate plus the letter about that bachelor's degree's language of instruction, would meet the English language requirement in the application. It's not the caseworker's fault that you didn't actually ever get the BEng along the way, and implicit degrees for work performed, don't count.
It's all perfectly logical: you have one degree, and one degree only, and it has been evaluated to be equivalent to the master's level in the UK, with points assigned accordingly. You cannot then expect the caseworker to turn around and consider that same single degree an undergraduate one, for the purposes of demonstrating English language proficiency.
AG
I understood perfectly well from the original post the construct of the MEng; I also understand that bachelor's degrees take 3 (or 4) years; and I also understand the guidance notes well enough to comprehend the BIA's justification for looking at the undergraduate degree for English language proficiency.pantaiema wrote:Gordon
The point here Bachelor is recognised because it takes 3 years. So it is considered that it is long enought to estbalish good communication skills.
But MEng take 4 years (i year more than bachelor degree) which actually Bachelor+Master's degree (without bechalor's degree awarded). So it is longer than 3 years so logically it should be recognised. The students involment in communication is simikar to BSc degree as they actually experiencing all communication form that Bachelor stundets have got.
But I agree that we can not blame the CW is it is clearly in the guidelines that they only recognised Bachelors in english + letter from university to meet english requirement. I think this is a loophole that they do not see when they issued the guidelines.
gordon wrote:I understood perfectly well from the original post the construct of the MEng; I also understand that bachelor's degrees take 3 (or 4) years; and I also understand the guidance notes well enough to comprehend the BIA's justification for looking at the undergraduate degree for English language proficiency.pantaiema wrote:Gordon
The point here Bachelor is recognised because it takes 3 years. So it is considered that it is long enought to estbalish good communication skills.
But MEng take 4 years (i year more than bachelor degree) which actually Bachelor+Master's degree (without bechalor's degree awarded). So it is longer than 3 years so logically it should be recognised. The students involment in communication is simikar to BSc degree as they actually experiencing all communication form that Bachelor stundets have got.
But I agree that we can not blame the CW is it is clearly in the guidelines that they only recognised Bachelors in english + letter from university to meet english requirement. I think this is a loophole that they do not see when they issued the guidelines.
But it makes no difference whether the MEng incorporates undergraduate work or not - the point is that it does not count as two degrees. It is one degree. It does not appear that the bachelor's degree was awarded transitionally - so at the end of the day, the OP has one degree only, the master's.
But more specifically, as has been discussed earlier, we are not in the business of counting years of education here. The MEng appears to be a four-year programme comprising undergraduate work and terminating at the master's level. It is not, in explicit terms, an undergraduate programme for three years and then a postgraduate programme for one year. Functionally, perhaps, but that's not what's being evaluated here.
So logically, it does not follow that the caseworkers should be making exceptions for undergraduate degrees that were not actually awarded.
AG
pantaiema wrote:Gordon
I believe we mean the same. The CW have been acting corretly, I have mentioned it before it is not the CW fault. If I were the CW working in this case of whether to except MEng (in The UK) as proff of english language knowledge, I would have made the same decision, otherwise I might be accused of acting beyond the guidelines.
But I think the guidelines/guidance should be revised in to make it more rational. So this is the fault of the people who make the guidance, as they probably have mnissed this point at the time they write fomulate the guidance.
This is about english languange knowledge to work in highly skill job in the UK. If 3 years is people have developed a certain language skills than common sense to assume that If you do 4 years in english speaking countries your knowledge of english languange will be better.
laddooo wrote:thank you gordon and pantaiema, for your advice. yeah, in hindsight, i should have written the IELTS. I'll still request a review and see how it goes, as I've got nothing to lose.
Gordon, I think the key point here is not to make exceptions, but rather to use common sense when assessing applications, although some clarification over the content of an MEng degree within the letter from the university would certainly help since it would be unwise to assume that the case worker would have much knowledge of this. The MEng is after all inclusive of a 3-year BEng and only the high achievers are given an option of studying the 4th year.gordon wrote:Well that's as may be, but the point is that the rules as they currently stand are meant to be more objective and transparent. The moment one starts making exceptions, such as you've suggested above, to have the English language requirement be met by three years of undergraduate-level work (even when the programme in question does not designate them as such, by granting a transitional degree; or perhaps even when the degree is not completed or passed), it's a slippery slope. That's why the OP, not actually holding the bachelor's degree, should have taken the IELTS. AG
I agree with gordon on this... I don't think the caseworker has an option of applying common sense to a case when the rules state otherwise...intalex wrote: Gordon, I think the key point here is not to make exceptions, but rather to use common sense when assessing applications,
So does that mean there is no workaround with HSMP, e.g. to get my university to clarify in their letter that I followed the same programme as BEng students during my first 3 years of university, and that I would have to be one of the selected high achievers to be given the option to study for a 4th year.flanker wrote:Tier-1 will accept Bachelor, Masters and PhD.
I think only someone who has succesfully applied under the same circumstances can tell you.So does that mean there is no workaround with HSMP, e.g. to get my university to clarify in their letter that I followed the same programme as BEng students during my first 3 years of university, and that I would have to be one of the selected high achievers to be given the option to study for a 4th year.
I don't really mind waiting for Tier-1 despite the additional £200 cost, but are the previous earnings criteria the same for Tier-1 as they are for HSMP? Is there an official link confirming this?flanker wrote:I think only someone who has succesfully applied under the same circumstances can tell you.
But if you can wait for Tier-1 to come online, then applying under Tier-1 could potentially be more straightforward, as they accept Bachelors, Masters and PhDs.
Pretty much the same as HSMP (see document below)I don't really mind waiting for Tier-1 despite the additional £200 cost, but are the previous earnings criteria the same for Tier-1 as they are for HSMP?
Yes, there is.....Is there an official link confirming this?
Cheers Flanker!flanker wrote:Yes, there is.....Is there an official link confirming this?
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary
But I have to say I'm well surprised that integrated Masters graduates have been rejected for HSMP, when they have technically exceeded the English Language requirements by studying for the required 3 years of a Bachelors degree equivalent, and an additional year on top. Oh well, at least this matter has been fixed in Tier 1.An academic qualification (not a professional or vocational qualification) which is deemed by UK NARIC to meet or exceed the recognised standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or a PhD in the UK, and which UK NARIC has confirmed was taught or researched in English to the level indicated in the table below, and provides the specified documents.
Anyone with an integrated Bachelors/Masters degree (e.g. MEng, MPharm, MSci, etc) succeeded in meeting the English Language requirement without having done a separate Bachelors degree or the IELTS?flanker wrote:I think only someone who has succesfully applied under the same circumstances can tell you.
There has been a case of an MEng graduate from a UK university being turned down for "not meeting" the English Language requirement. The big question mark is whether or not his caseworker was fully aware that an MEng is a 4-year degree which is inclusive of a 3-year Bachelors degree. If the caseworker was unaware, then I think I would stand a chance as I have a letter from my university faculty confirming in detail the content of an MEng degree. But if the caseworker was fully aware of the content of an MEng degree, then it means I would stand no chance.crusador0408 wrote:whatever it is ...if that degree is taught in english..get a letter sealed n signed from university registrar..tht is enough!!