ADVICE - HSMP application refused

[laddooo]

i had recently applied for the hsmp programme but my application was refused because of two reasons.
one of them is this

English Language requirement

•You have stated that you have a Bachelor degree equivalent to a UK Bachelor degree taught in English
•The degree is recognized by NARIC as equivalent to UK Masters Level
•Whilst a Bachelors degree is normally taught over a period of at least three years (during which time a candidate is required to display a level of competence in each of the four areas – listening, reading, writing and speaking in English – equivalent to IELTS 6), higher level degrees cannot be established as being delivered in a manner that would test each of the required elements outlined above.
•In line with published guidance, the evidence provided has been assessed as insufficient to meet the English language requirement.â€

[pantaiema]

laddooo

You would have avoided this if you do a liitle bit of reseach in this forum.
A few months ago there is a person who graduate with MEng title from British University in the UK got rejected simialr reason with you. As you might know that MEng degree is integrated degree leading to master's degree (without bachelor) and people do it 4 years. S/he also get rejected with the same reason with you. If you see this case is stronger than your case as s/he did it in the UK.

I agree this is actually irrational but that is the fact.
But the guidelines clearly mention they only consider Bachelor degree a evidence of anglish fluency.

What I wil suggest do not take the chance do IELTS and resubmit your application again. U could try review but I do not think it is going to work.




[quote="laddooo"]i had recently applied for the hsmp programme but my application was refused because of two reasons.
one of them is this

English Language requirement

•You have stated that you have a Bachelor degree equivalent to a UK Bachelor degree taught in English
•The degree is recognized by NARIC as equivalent to UK Masters Level
•Whilst a Bachelors degree is normally taught over a period of at least three years (during which time a candidate is required to display a level of competence in each of the four areas – listening, reading, writing and speaking in English – equivalent to IELTS 6), higher level degrees cannot be established as being delivered in a manner that would test each of the required elements outlined above.
•In line with published guidance, the evidence provided has been assessed as insufficient to meet the English language requirement.â€

[gordon]

You've pointed out yourself the core problem of your argument: the MEng degree 'sort of combines the three year bachelor's and one year master's', but does not do so explicitly. It does not appear that you actually hold the bachelor's degree, if the undergraduate programme were subsumed into the longer programme, terminating at the master's level, and it is with regard to that unheld undergraduate degree that your application failed, since the requirement is that the bachelor's degree certificate plus the letter about that bachelor's degree's language of instruction, would meet the English language requirement in the application. It's not the caseworker's fault that you didn't actually ever get the BEng along the way, and implicit degrees for work performed, don't count.

It's all perfectly logical: you have one degree, and one degree only, and it has been evaluated to be equivalent to the master's level in the UK, with points assigned accordingly. You cannot then expect the caseworker to turn around and consider that same single degree an undergraduate one, for the purposes of demonstrating English language proficiency.

AG

[pantaiema]

Gordon

The point here Bachelor is recognised because it takes 3 years. So it is considered that it is long enought to estbalish good communication skills.

But MEng take 4 years (i year more than bachelor degree) which actually Bachelor+Master's degree (without bechalor's degree awarded). So it is longer than 3 years so logically it should be recognised. The students involment in communication is simikar to BSc degree as they actually experiencing all communication form that Bachelor stundets have got.

But I agree that we can not blame the CW is it is clearly in the guidelines that they only recognised Bachelors in english + letter from university to meet english requirement. I think this is a loophole that they do not see when they issued the guidelines.

You've pointed out yourself the core problem of your argument: the MEng degree 'sort of combines the three year bachelor's and one year master's', but does not do so explicitly. It does not appear that you actually hold the bachelor's degree, if the undergraduate programme were subsumed into the longer programme, terminating at the master's level, and it is with regard to that unheld undergraduate degree that your application failed, since the requirement is that the bachelor's degree certificate plus the letter about that bachelor's degree's language of instruction, would meet the English language requirement in the application. It's not the caseworker's fault that you didn't actually ever get the BEng along the way, and implicit degrees for work performed, don't count.

It's all perfectly logical: you have one degree, and one degree only, and it has been evaluated to be equivalent to the master's level in the UK, with points assigned accordingly. You cannot then expect the caseworker to turn around and consider that same single degree an undergraduate one, for the purposes of demonstrating English language proficiency.

AG

[gordon]

Gordon

The point here Bachelor is recognised because it takes 3 years. So it is considered that it is long enought to estbalish good communication skills.

But MEng take 4 years (i year more than bachelor degree) which actually Bachelor+Master's degree (without bechalor's degree awarded). So it is longer than 3 years so logically it should be recognised. The students involment in communication is simikar to BSc degree as they actually experiencing all communication form that Bachelor stundets have got.

But I agree that we can not blame the CW is it is clearly in the guidelines that they only recognised Bachelors in english + letter from university to meet english requirement. I think this is a loophole that they do not see when they issued the guidelines.

I understood perfectly well from the original post the construct of the MEng; I also understand that bachelor's degrees take 3 (or 4) years; and I also understand the guidance notes well enough to comprehend the BIA's justification for looking at the undergraduate degree for English language proficiency.

But it makes no difference whether the MEng incorporates undergraduate work or not - the point is that it does not count as two degrees. It is one degree. It does not appear that the bachelor's degree was awarded transitionally - so at the end of the day, the OP has one degree only, the master's.

But more specifically, as has been discussed earlier, we are not in the business of counting years of education here. The MEng appears to be a four-year programme comprising undergraduate work and terminating at the master's level. It is not, in explicit terms, an undergraduate programme for three years and then a postgraduate programme for one year. Functionally, perhaps, but that's not what's being evaluated here.

So logically, it does not follow that the caseworkers should be making exceptions for undergraduate degrees that were not actually awarded.

AG

[pantaiema]

Gordon
I believe we mean the same. The CW have been acting corretly, I have mentioned it before it is not the CW fault. If I were the CW working in this case of whether to except MEng (in The UK) as proff of english language knowledge, I would have made the same decision, otherwise I might be accused of acting beyond the guidelines.

But I think the guidelines/guidance should be revised in to make it more rational. So this is the fault of the people who make the guidance, as they probably have mnissed this point at the time they write fomulate the guidance.

This is about english languange knowledge to work in highly skill job in the UK. If 3 years is people have developed a certain language skills than common sense to assume that If you do 4 years in english speaking countries your knowledge of english languange will be better.

Gordon

The point here Bachelor is recognised because it takes 3 years. So it is considered that it is long enought to estbalish good communication skills.

But MEng take 4 years (i year more than bachelor degree) which actually Bachelor+Master's degree (without bechalor's degree awarded). So it is longer than 3 years so logically it should be recognised. The students involment in communication is simikar to BSc degree as they actually experiencing all communication form that Bachelor stundets have got.

But I agree that we can not blame the CW is it is clearly in the guidelines that they only recognised Bachelors in english + letter from university to meet english requirement. I think this is a loophole that they do not see when they issued the guidelines.

I understood perfectly well from the original post the construct of the MEng; I also understand that bachelor's degrees take 3 (or 4) years; and I also understand the guidance notes well enough to comprehend the BIA's justification for looking at the undergraduate degree for English language proficiency.

But it makes no difference whether the MEng incorporates undergraduate work or not - the point is that it does not count as two degrees. It is one degree. It does not appear that the bachelor's degree was awarded transitionally - so at the end of the day, the OP has one degree only, the master's.

But more specifically, as has been discussed earlier, we are not in the business of counting years of education here. The MEng appears to be a four-year programme comprising undergraduate work and terminating at the master's level. It is not, in explicit terms, an undergraduate programme for three years and then a postgraduate programme for one year. Functionally, perhaps, but that's not what's being evaluated here.

So logically, it does not follow that the caseworkers should be making exceptions for undergraduate degrees that were not actually awarded.

AG

[gordon]

Well that's as may be, but the point is that the rules as they currently stand are meant to be more objective and transparent. The moment one starts making exceptions, such as you've suggested above, to have the English language requirement be met by three years of undergraduate-level work (even when the programme in question does not designate them as such, by granting a transitional degree; or perhaps even when the degree is not completed or passed), it's a slippery slope. That's why the OP, not actually holding the bachelor's degree, should have taken the IELTS. AG

Gordon
I believe we mean the same. The CW have been acting corretly, I have mentioned it before it is not the CW fault. If I were the CW working in this case of whether to except MEng (in The UK) as proff of english language knowledge, I would have made the same decision, otherwise I might be accused of acting beyond the guidelines.

But I think the guidelines/guidance should be revised in to make it more rational. So this is the fault of the people who make the guidance, as they probably have mnissed this point at the time they write fomulate the guidance.

This is about english languange knowledge to work in highly skill job in the UK. If 3 years is people have developed a certain language skills than common sense to assume that If you do 4 years in english speaking countries your knowledge of english languange will be better.

[laddooo]

thank you gordon and pantaiema, for your advice. yeah, in hindsight, i should have written the IELTS. I'll still request a review and see how it goes, as I've got nothing to lose.

[pantaiema]

laddooo

Yes indeed You have nothing to loose. It might take months before you here the review decision but you do not need to pay anything.
Just highlight the argument that have been presented here.

ALthought I doubt that it will success, but at least it will give them the input and to think about it when they formulate the next year guidance.

thank you gordon and pantaiema, for your advice. yeah, in hindsight, i should have written the IELTS. I'll still request a review and see how it goes, as I've got nothing to lose.

[ashley2000]

hello,

can you please advise as to whether your review was successful or not as i am in the same situation? I got a four year undergraduate MA in Scotland and am trying to figure out whether this will count or I will have to take the IELTS. Thanks!

[intalex]

Well that's as may be, but the point is that the rules as they currently stand are meant to be more objective and transparent. The moment one starts making exceptions, such as you've suggested above, to have the English language requirement be met by three years of undergraduate-level work (even when the programme in question does not designate them as such, by granting a transitional degree; or perhaps even when the degree is not completed or passed), it's a slippery slope. That's why the OP, not actually holding the bachelor's degree, should have taken the IELTS. AG

Gordon, I think the key point here is not to make exceptions, but rather to use common sense when assessing applications, although some clarification over the content of an MEng degree within the letter from the university would certainly help since it would be unwise to assume that the case worker would have much knowledge of this. The MEng is after all inclusive of a 3-year BEng and only the high achievers are given an option of studying the 4th year.

Take an example of 2 people who enrol on an Engineering degree together. If person A decides to end the programme after 3 years for a BEng, then that person qualifies for the English Language requirement. However, if person B decides to study an extra year for an MEng, then that person suddenly ceases qualifying for the English Language requirement despite having followed the exact same programme as person A for the first 3 years of study. This doesn't sound logical, as it's essentially penalising those high achievers for choosing to take the option of studying an extra year subsequent to the first 3 years of study.

Laddoo, did you manage to convince them, or did you end up having to do the IELTS in the end?

Has anyone else been successful in making the MEng work without needing to do the IELTS?

[daylebo5]

Gordon, I think the key point here is not to make exceptions, but rather to use common sense when assessing applications,

I agree with gordon on this... I don't think the caseworker has an option of applying common sense to a case when the rules state otherwise...
The only way out would be a amendment in the rules to close the loop hole... maybe this might change when it becomes Tier 1....

[flanker]

The only way out would be a amendment in the rules to close the loop hole... maybe this might change when it becomes Tier 1....

Tier-1 will accept Bachelor, Masters and PhD.

[intalex]

Tier-1 will accept Bachelor, Masters and PhD.

So does that mean there is no workaround with HSMP, e.g. to get my university to clarify in their letter that I followed the same programme as BEng students during my first 3 years of university, and that I would have to be one of the selected high achievers to be given the option to study for a 4th year.

[flanker]

So does that mean there is no workaround with HSMP, e.g. to get my university to clarify in their letter that I followed the same programme as BEng students during my first 3 years of university, and that I would have to be one of the selected high achievers to be given the option to study for a 4th year.

I think only someone who has succesfully applied under the same circumstances can tell you.

But if you can wait for Tier-1 to come online, then applying under Tier-1 could potentially be more straightforward, as they accept Bachelors, Masters and PhDs.

[intalex]

I think only someone who has succesfully applied under the same circumstances can tell you.

But if you can wait for Tier-1 to come online, then applying under Tier-1 could potentially be more straightforward, as they accept Bachelors, Masters and PhDs.

I don't really mind waiting for Tier-1 despite the additional £200 cost, but are the previous earnings criteria the same for Tier-1 as they are for HSMP? Is there an official link confirming this?

[flanker]

I don't really mind waiting for Tier-1 despite the additional £200 cost, but are the previous earnings criteria the same for Tier-1 as they are for HSMP?

Pretty much the same as HSMP (see document below)

Is there an official link confirming this?

Yes, there is.....

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

[intalex]

Is there an official link confirming this?

Yes, there is.....
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

Cheers Flanker!

The guidance on English Language requirements is a lot more approriate under Tier 1, as the requirement is:

An academic qualification (not a professional or vocational qualification) which is deemed by UK NARIC to meet or exceed the recognised standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or a PhD in the UK, and which UK NARIC has confirmed was taught or researched in English to the level indicated in the table below, and provides the specified documents.

But I have to say I'm well surprised that integrated Masters graduates have been rejected for HSMP, when they have technically exceeded the English Language requirements by studying for the required 3 years of a Bachelors degree equivalent, and an additional year on top. Oh well, at least this matter has been fixed in Tier 1.

[intalex]

I've just realised that the Tier 1 system for new applicants doesn't go live for a couple of months, which means I have to apply for the HSMP scheme if I need to apply soon.

I've been sent (upon request) a letter from my university faculty confirming the following facts about an MEng degree:

(i) MEng is a 4-year combined Bachelors/Masters degree which one can enroll into upon completion of A-Levels;
(ii) MEng students follow the exact same programme during their first 3 years as BEng students;
(iii) All students have the option to end their study at the end of 3 years and obtain a BEng, whereas only the high achievers during the first 3 years are offered the option to study the extra year for an MEng; and
(iv) Only one degree certificate is issued upon completion of the MEng programme, although the programme is fully inclusive of a Bachelors degree.

Anyone think this would be enough to fulfil the English Language requirement?

[salman_uk]

Guys,

That document refered to above regarding English Language Requirement in Tier 1, is mentioning that:

10 points will only be awarded if the applicant:
(a) has the level of English language shown in the table below and:

The word AND says that the table requirement should be met. The table requirement is:

A knowledge of English equivalent to level C1
of the Council of Europe’s Common
European Framework for Language Learning
or above

From what i know they are raising the band 6 requirement to band 6.5.
So the IELTS requirement is sort of made compulsory isnt it?

[intalex]

I think only someone who has succesfully applied under the same circumstances can tell you.

Anyone with an integrated Bachelors/Masters degree (e.g. MEng, MPharm, MSci, etc) succeeded in meeting the English Language requirement without having done a separate Bachelors degree or the IELTS?

[intalex]

Anyone ??? I've had my HSMP application ready for nearly a month now, but am not submitting it due to the uncertainty around whether "integrated Masters" degrees fulfil the English language requirement.

[crusador0408]

whatever it is ...if that degree is taught in english..get a letter sealed n signed from university registrar..tht is enough!!

[intalex]

whatever it is ...if that degree is taught in english..get a letter sealed n signed from university registrar..tht is enough!!

There has been a case of an MEng graduate from a UK university being turned down for "not meeting" the English Language requirement. The big question mark is whether or not his caseworker was fully aware that an MEng is a 4-year degree which is inclusive of a 3-year Bachelors degree. If the caseworker was unaware, then I think I would stand a chance as I have a letter from my university faculty confirming in detail the content of an MEng degree. But if the caseworker was fully aware of the content of an MEng degree, then it means I would stand no chance.

Hence, it would be nice to hear from someone with any "Integrated Masters" degree who has succeeded in meeting the HSMP English Language requirement with only that degree.

[intalex]

I'm sending my application tomorrow anyway, as my earnings evidence is for the period up to 31 Dec 2007, and waiting any longer would mean that I'll have to start seeking evidence for additional months' earnings, which would be a bit of a pain.

I'd be a very happy man if I could hear of anyone who succeeded with their HSMP application with just an "integrated Masters" degree such as MEng, MPharm, MSci, etc.

It would be nice to hear from people who had a problem with such degrees apparently not meeting the HSMP English Language requirement, despite being inclusive of a complete 3-year Bachelors degree.