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So you are saying that the Home Office is not just pushing a certain agenda, but they are actually behaving like criminals in full knowledge of illegality? I don't know whether I would subscribe to that, so far I just think that the rules look stupid as they are. We will see.Twin wrote:Home office are not stupid. They are aware that these new changes breach article 8 and that the AIT will be swamped with appeals once this comes into effect so I won't be suprised if they are in the process of circumventing appeals too.
That is a good question. I found the statement that you must use the available national recourse before appealing to the ECHR. So not giving the right of appeal in the UK would obviously counter-productive here. So indeed you may be right that the AIT will just be overwhelmed with cases. The question is how long you have to wait before it becomes clear that the national appeal is not feasible? I cannot see the ECHR take cases directly from average Joe in a (supposedly) first world country, but what do I know.Does anyone know how once can appeal to the European courts? I think people should be thinking about this avenue from now.
Really, i'm just frustrated. I'm trying to find out the rationale behind this and I can only assume that for the HO to have come up with these changes, they would have at least covered some loop holes. I mean, why would they make rules that does not comply with a convention they are signed to when knowing that these rules can be made useless in court?So you are saying that the Home Office is not just pushing a certain agenda, but they are actually behaving like criminals in full knowledge of illegality? I don't know whether I would subscribe to that, so far I just think that the rules look stupid as they are. We will see.
Well...if not from an average Joe in first world country, surely they would take one from and Average Abdulla from a third world country, surely... http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=BinaryThat is a good question. I found the statement that you must use the available national recourse before appealing to the ECHR. So not giving the right of appeal in the UK would obviously counter-productive here. So indeed you may be right that the AIT will just be overwhelmed with cases. The question is how long you have to wait before it becomes clear that the national appeal is not feasible? I cannot see the ECHR take cases directly from average Joe in a (supposedly) first world country, but what do I know.
So you mean having met your fiancee in the UK will be detrimental to your application. I can't lie about that cause i still need to show we have lived together for two years! I didn't READ ANYTHING ABOUT YOU MEETING YOUR PARTNER WHILE UNDOCUMENTED BEING A FACTOR FOR CONSIDERATION.Twin wrote:Maybe, just maybe (please I emphasise on "maybe" as I don't want some of the gurus to scold me for giving wrong advise), if you return home on a Travel Certificate, you could return after a year. I guess if you don't have a passport then the Immigration officer cannot serve you a removal notice on a TC (or can he?).thelastman wrote:Absolutely not fair. Please consider this situation;
If an illegal entrant was thinking of leaving voluntarily at his own expence but for the purpose of applying at the home country for Entry clearance as spouse of a UK citizen. Does the ban still apply. the ban seems it can be anything from 1-5 years depending how lucky you are when leaving. might have to leave illegally as well so as to not leave any record. will they expect me to live at least a year without my partner? ( not gonna happen)
seem its better to stay for two more years and apply for a 14 years rule.
In a way they are encouraging rule breakers to stay and avoid trying to document themseves. Are they not suppose to be encouraging people to become legal so they know who is in the country, not force them into hiding by this harsh punishments.
Please reply.....
Either way, remove the thought of being back in less than a year from your mind. Except of course you're not going to claim having met your wife/fiancee in the UK which I wouldn't advise as you're likely to be caught in a lie and that would be a 10 years ban if caught for deception.
I think right now, you're lucky as you haven't had any form of removal notice served on you. If you manage to leave Heathrow without any hiccups then even better.
Good Luck.
Yes i was going to return home because I'm getting tired of living in Limbo. Its not a very nice Town. rough neighbourhood lol.Twin wrote:If you have two more years to meet the 14 years rule why then are you considering returning home? Is it because you wouldn't be able to work or get on with life? I know the feeling. Ideally, it would have been most appropriate to return home and apply for entry clearance as this shouldn't take more than 6 months but giving this new changes, one isn't so sure.thelastman wrote:Absolutely not fair. Please consider this situation;
If an illegal entrant was thinking of leaving voluntarily at his own expence but for the purpose of applying at the home country for Entry clearance as spouse of a UK citizen. Does the ban still apply. the ban seems it can be anything from 1-5 years depending how lucky you are when leaving. might have to leave illegally as well so as to not leave any record. will they expect me to live at least a year without my partner? ( not gonna happen)
seem its better to stay for two more years and apply for a 14 years rule.
In a way they are encouraging rule breakers to stay and avoid trying to document themseves. Are they not suppose to be encouraging people to become legal so they know who is in the country, not force them into hiding by this harsh punishments.
Please reply.....
If you stay for the 14 years rule (Let's hope they don't change the conditions of that or remove it totally) you could be looking at up to 3 yrs or more to become legalised.
If you return home, you could be affected by the 1 year ban which if lets face it, could be the amount of time you could be home even without the ban. Why? There is no guarantee that your application would have succeeded without a ban (lets say you don't meet all the requirements), so if you make an appeal you'd be waiting some 7 months before hearing so effectively, with or without a ban you could be home for a year anyway.
It's your choice.
I hope I haven't confused you even further.
I'm sure the gurus will be able to advise further or correct me where i'm wrong.
Absolutely not! Admitting meeting your spouse in the UK and having cohabited for 2 or more years should normally work in your favour. I only pointed not mentioning it if you were looking to be absolved from the ban. I mean the only way you will not be affected by the ban is if you say you met your spouse in your country and have never travelled to the UK (but you don't wanna do that).thelastman wrote:So you mean having met your fiancee in the UK will be detrimental to your application. I can't lie about that cause i still need to show we have lived together for two years! I didn't READ ANYTHING ABOUT YOU MEETING YOUR PARTNER WHILE UNDOCUMENTED BEING A FACTOR FOR CONSIDERATION.Twin wrote:Maybe, just maybe (please I emphasise on "maybe" as I don't want some of the gurus to scold me for giving wrong advise), if you return home on a Travel Certificate, you could return after a year. I guess if you don't have a passport then the Immigration officer cannot serve you a removal notice on a TC (or can he?).thelastman wrote:Absolutely not fair. Please consider this situation;
If an illegal entrant was thinking of leaving voluntarily at his own expence but for the purpose of applying at the home country for Entry clearance as spouse of a UK citizen. Does the ban still apply. the ban seems it can be anything from 1-5 years depending how lucky you are when leaving. might have to leave illegally as well so as to not leave any record. will they expect me to live at least a year without my partner? ( not gonna happen)
seem its better to stay for two more years and apply for a 14 years rule.
In a way they are encouraging rule breakers to stay and avoid trying to document themseves. Are they not suppose to be encouraging people to become legal so they know who is in the country, not force them into hiding by this harsh punishments.
Please reply.....
Either way, remove the thought of being back in less than a year from your mind. Except of course you're not going to claim having met your wife/fiancee in the UK which I wouldn't advise as you're likely to be caught in a lie and that would be a 10 years ban if caught for deception.
I think right now, you're lucky as you haven't had any form of removal notice served on you. If you manage to leave Heathrow without any hiccups then even better.
Good Luck.
Would my fiancee have to stay away with me or she can stay in the UK during the application. I have no removal notice because i have bee here since 15 years old and a bit in the system and don't get in trouble with the police. So it seems i might have to live in limbo for another two years (really 14 months plus waiting time for application)
Even without the new changes, you could have been refused on the general grounds for refusal basis ie overstaying, anyway. However, because it is now mandatory for an overstayer or illegal entrant to be refused, you are guaranteed a 1 year ban. However, as Victoria pointed out somewhere, if it's just a year ban, then it might not be so bad as you know that once you serve this ban, it can no longer be used as a basis for refusing your application whereas before, it could be used indefinitely.thelastman wrote:Yes i was going to return home because I'm getting tired of living in Limbo. Its not a very nice Town. rough neighbourhood lol.Twin wrote:If you have two more years to meet the 14 years rule why then are you considering returning home? Is it because you wouldn't be able to work or get on with life? I know the feeling. Ideally, it would have been most appropriate to return home and apply for entry clearance as this shouldn't take more than 6 months but giving this new changes, one isn't so sure.thelastman wrote:Absolutely not fair. Please consider this situation;
If an illegal entrant was thinking of leaving voluntarily at his own expence but for the purpose of applying at the home country for Entry clearance as spouse of a UK citizen. Does the ban still apply. the ban seems it can be anything from 1-5 years depending how lucky you are when leaving. might have to leave illegally as well so as to not leave any record. will they expect me to live at least a year without my partner? ( not gonna happen)
seem its better to stay for two more years and apply for a 14 years rule.
In a way they are encouraging rule breakers to stay and avoid trying to document themseves. Are they not suppose to be encouraging people to become legal so they know who is in the country, not force them into hiding by this harsh punishments.
Please reply.....
If you stay for the 14 years rule (Let's hope they don't change the conditions of that or remove it totally) you could be looking at up to 3 yrs or more to become legalised.
If you return home, you could be affected by the 1 year ban which if lets face it, could be the amount of time you could be home even without the ban. Why? There is no guarantee that your application would have succeeded without a ban (lets say you don't meet all the requirements), so if you make an appeal you'd be waiting some 7 months before hearing so effectively, with or without a ban you could be home for a year anyway.
It's your choice.
I hope I haven't confused you even further.
I'm sure the gurus will be able to advise further or correct me where i'm wrong.
Why do you think the application might not succeed initially, is there precedence for this. i was hoping the entry clearance application only takes a month or two. My Fiancee can only afford to take a month of work so can i be the only one to travel?
Is it a fact that having lived in the UK illegally will count against the application?
Is it for definate that this new law will pass. What are the probabilities?
How long on average does a fiancee entry clearance take?
What if i go before the 1st of April will i be excluded from the rule?
This questions are not for you only in case you can't answer them all.
Thanks.......
Twin wrote:Probably the worst news of my life!VictoriaS wrote:The bad news is...this has been addressed...and BIA have said that those given removal notices whilst they are about to leave voluntarily are still stuffed for 10 years like everyone else...
...sorry guys.
Victoria
How did they explain those who leave voluntarily on public funds, then? Does it mean that those didn't leave after 28 and calls the HO for assistance to leave only gets 5 years? Is it really possible for the HO to pay their air fare and not issue them with a removal notice?
Very confusing!
It's probably a warning for all those you plan to overstay in the future...sally12345 wrote:Twin wrote:Probably the worst news of my life!VictoriaS wrote:The bad news is...this has been addressed...and BIA have said that those given removal notices whilst they are about to leave voluntarily are still stuffed for 10 years like everyone else...
...sorry guys.
Victoria
How did they explain those who leave voluntarily on public funds, then? Does it mean that those didn't leave after 28 and calls the HO for assistance to leave only gets 5 years? Is it really possible for the HO to pay their air fare and not issue them with a removal notice?
Very confusing!
sorry Victoria, then why do they even mention the 1 year ban! are they doing this as they dont want to be seen as unjust? I dont get this one bit we want to leave but how? whats the point on leaving we are going to be hit with a 10year ban now.. it makes no sense at all
It's difficult... Some people will try to overstay with the assumption that they will be banned only for 1yr for the first time they are caught...paulp wrote:The question here is how can an overstayer, willing to leave by their own means, ensure they only get a year ban? Does it involve contacting the home office to get on one of their assisted removal programmes?
Victoria, any news on this, please?VictoriaS wrote:That is a BRILLIANT point. I am going to see if I can get a response.Twin wrote: What interests me particularly is the category of 'Persons Exercising Rights to a child Resident In the UK' where a court order states clearly that you have residence order which can only be exercised in the UK. Would the ECO just say: "surd it! You overstayed so you lose your right to be with your child, so I don't care about no court order"?
Victoria
I guess they would only find out if they had to check the person's immigration history to see if they'd previously made an unsuccesful application whilst in the UK or if their passport was stamped on exit.aaa123 wrote:so if any overstayer is applying for out of country visa ......how the out of country visa issuing authorities are going to find this out that a person overstayed for some extra days (say a couple of weeks or so) after end of 28 days period..........
as i take that out-of-coutry visa issuing authorities will be the ones most conerned about this rather than HOME OFFICE themselves.........
how much are those few days ......a week and a half (with some noce reasons in hand)mym wrote:Generally the advice here to overstayers is to leave asap and apply from their home country in order to regularise their immigration position, but people should be aware that amongst the 6 February 2008 statement of changes to the Immigration Rules the government are slipping in the below:
7.25. Applicants who have been refused entry clearance after having used deception in their applications will have any future applications they make refused for ten years. Other immigration offenders (other than those who overstayed for 28 or fewer days and left at their own expense) will be refused for the following periods: One year if, following their breach, they left the UK voluntarily at their own expense;
Five years if, following their breach, they left the UK voluntarily at public expense; and
Ten years if they were removed or deported from the UK following their breach.
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary
Yes what about this?aa123 wrote:Are the rules going to be applied to appeals that are pending, if the hearing is after April 2008.