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Naturalisation eligibility to be increased to ILR+2 years???

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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1963British
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Posts: 128
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Spouse already has ILR

Post by 1963British » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:32 pm

I just finished reading the document looking as to how it would affect my family. Here is my take on it based on my families particulars.

My wife was granted Indefinite Leave to Enter/Remain based on the four year marriage concession. We are now in the UK as a family and she would have what they are terming "Permanent Residence" already. She qualified for her ILE prior to the enactment of Life in the UK as an entry clearance requirement.

Right now we are letting the three year clock toll so she can become a citizen. She will not have those three years until after the implementation of the new guidance.

We can only guess as to what will go before Parliament, but I can not envision those that already have ILR (Permanent Residence) "stepping down the ladder."

My wife needs to take the Life in the UK to become a citizen and she will do that.

The key phrase "Active citizenship speeds up progress to British Citizenship" on page 31 appears to be very important. It does not say active citizenship is a requirement. My reading is that if you are a "volunteer" for one year, you can become a Citizen quicker. If you are not a "volunteer" you need to wait three years. So, if you do not want to volunteer....... It looks to me like there will actually be little change to the actual law but this will somehow fall under the "good character requirement."

Now I ask myself how does this affect my wife who had Permanent Residence on the day she arrived in the UK and is waiting for the three year tolling?

Scenario One, is that there will be zero impact as she is already in "Stage Three." She applies for citizenship as planned at the three year mark.

Scenario Two, is that the law requires either three years "permanent residency" where you do nothing or one year "permanent residency" as a volunteer before applying for citizenship.

Because my wife will have been a full fledged permanent resident for three years before applying, my guess is that volunteerism will not impact her in the final bill. However, my wife is a volunteer for a registered charity from day one of arrival, as I thought it was good for her to get involved immediately, so it will still have no affect.

How would it affect other British Spouses/Partners that come over on the two year limited leave? If you do not volunteer, you finish out your two years, then "extend" for three years to become a permanent resident, making sure you take Life in the UK, back to page 31, key phrase "Can switch to Citizenship at a later date" implies that you go straight to the Citizenship Application at that point since you sat out your time in the penalty box.

Whats my betting guess as to how it will affect those within this limited area of scope?

My betting guess is that anyone who has been granted ILR prior to the effective date will probably be in good shape. ILR and Permanent Resident will be deemed interchangeable in the final bill. Permanent Residents will be able to go to Citizenship at anytime subject to Life in the UK test.

Are there any planning opportunities out there? Well, if you are a British Citizen and have been married for more than four years to an alien outside the UK, then it is probably a real good idea for the spouse to come over on a tourist visa, take Life in the UK, go back home and apply for ILE under the four year concession, then make sure you arrive back in the UK as a family to get date stamped before anything goes into effect.

Those that are here on a two year limited leave that will not be completed until after the magic date in 2009 appear to be out of luck.

It will be interesting to see the final product now from Parliament!

surdy77
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Post by surdy77 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:36 pm

Hi, Just a quick question , after going thru all the posts and the green paper on the home office website, can anyone tell when these rules are going to be impleented. ?

1963British
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ILR will remain

Post by 1963British » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:48 pm

Look at Page 20. In "Stage Three," what a horrible name, they use the term Indefinite leave to remain, as the term defining permanent residence.

Betting guess, is that term remains!!

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:00 pm

Stage in the Journey to Citizenship
Time Period in that Stage
Temporary
Residence

1. Economic Migrants
(Highly skilled and skilled workers
under Tiers 1 and 2 of the PBS
- and dependants)
Five years
2. Family
(Family members of British
citizens and permanent residents)
Two years
3. Refugees
(Refugees and those granted
humanitarian protection - and
dependants)
Five years
_______________________________________________________
Probationary
Citizenship

All three routes (economic
migrants, family and refugees)
have the same time periods in this
stage:
o To progress to citizenship: a
minimum of one year
o To progress to permanent
residence: a minimum of three
years

_____________________________________________________
Permanent
Residence

Persons in this category can
remain in the UK indefinitely
, but
can progress to British citizenship,
if they meet the criteria
.
_____________________________________________________
British
Citizenship

Completion of the journey. Full
rights and benefits.

Taken from page 27 Not much change just more defined I think the process.
In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

1963British
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Planning Opportunities

Post by 1963British » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:13 pm

This final bill is going to be a mish mosh in its final form. Now I am wondering if the three year residency requirement for spouses will remain in final law?

Surely it will not be needed, with all these stages.

If not, it may open a planning opportunity for a very narrow number of people who already have permanent residency, are married to a British Spouse, and like to volunteer?

We had the PPRON Method for awhile, maybe another naturalization opening is on the way.

Definitely something to watch for.

fardeens
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Post by fardeens » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:15 pm

Can anyone else see any contradicting views here :?: All in one sentence.

“Home Secretary Jacqui Smithâ€

thsths
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United Kingdom

Post by thsths » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:18 pm

runie80 wrote: Stage in the Journey to Citizenship
(1) Temporary Residence
(2) Probationary Citizenship
(3) Permanent Residence
It does look reasonable and simple, but I still wonder what the difference between stage 1 and 2 is. After all, the extra stage is a crucial element of the new system, but it does not seem to serve any purpose apart from a further delay to permanent residency. I am sure it sounds good to xenophobe voters, but is that all it does? Do you have to keep renewing it, for example, or is it granted for 5 years?

Tom

Narcissus
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Post by Narcissus » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:48 pm

I can only assume the only reason is to severely cut the number of people on ILR. Most people will not go through that stage to get to citizenship, and it will be more difficult to get that citizenship.

I can only guess that is because ILR gives benefits but no responsibilities - and people can still call them foreigners.

alientrader
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Location: USA

Post by alientrader » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:22 pm

RobinLondon wrote:What I can't find out...there's no reference to it in the document...

What happens to those already on ILR when the Big Bang happens? I reckon that transitional arrangements are still a while off, but there will be many people who will have the old style ILR when the Home Office no longer is issuing them.

I wonder how they will be brought into citizenship, or will this be some residual class?

I ask because I'm scheduled for ILR in August 2008. Early enough to get ILR. But I'm likely to be subject to the new nationality rules by the time August 2009 rolls around if there aren't transitional arrangements in place.
and when you get to 6-7 years, they will tell u Oops, its 12 years now,a nd when you get to 12, they will be like, get outta here.

alientrader
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Post by alientrader » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:23 pm

Narcissus wrote:I can only assume the only reason is to severely cut the number of people on ILR. Most people will not go through that stage to get to citizenship, and it will be more difficult to get that citizenship.

I can only guess that is because ILR gives benefits but no responsibilities - and people can still call them foreigners.
pissing me right off, changing the rules all the time. I think i am packing my bags for the USA, good riddance great britain

TinTinTin
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Post by TinTinTin » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:25 pm

When will this 'green paper' implemented ?
Also, any guesses if someone on ILR which category does she fit under ?

Temporary Residence OR
Probationary Citizenship OR
Permanent Residence

My guess is 'Permanent Residence', which means they qualify to become a british citizen if they 'meet the criteria' ? Not sure whether its well defined ;-)

alientrader
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Location: USA

Post by alientrader » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:34 pm

TinTinTin wrote:When will this 'green paper' implemented ?
Also, any guesses if someone on ILR which category does she fit under ?

Temporary Residence OR
Probationary Citizenship OR
Permanent Residence

My guess is 'Permanent Residence', which means they qualify to become a british citizen if they 'meet the criteria' ? Not sure whether its well defined ;-)
Why worry about it? no matter what happens, it will surely not be in your favour. So relax, and wait for them to whack you.

alientrader
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Location: USA

Post by alientrader » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:35 pm

ashishashah wrote:Even i am on HSMP...HAve a query though:

So there wont be such thing called ILR any more?
You can either apply for a Citizenship after X years after ILR(5 years) , or u go home...Basically you cannot stay for ever on ILR like ppl. r doing it now..You HAVE to TAKE british citizenship

Am i right in saying that??

Ashish
The way things are going, we are going home no matter what happens. this is the intention of HO, we should not try to fight it

bilgehan1977
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Post by bilgehan1977 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:48 am

If you read this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008 ... mmigration

it says
"Changes will apply to new arrivals after the new laws are passed, and not to foreigners already living in the UK, so reforms are only likely to affect migrants arriving from 2010"

is it the case??

RobinLondon
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Location: SE London

Post by RobinLondon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:40 am

bilgehan1977 wrote:If you read this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008 ... mmigration

it says
"Changes will apply to new arrivals after the new laws are passed, and not to foreigners already living in the UK, so reforms are only likely to affect migrants arriving from 2010"

is it the case??
Yes, but I can't find a statement to this effect anywhere in the official HO documents or in Ms Smith's speech. It's almost as if the Guardian and other news sources pulled this "fact" out of thin air...

Again, it looks like a case of wait and see. Unless anyone can find an official source that confirms it?

heretic
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Post by heretic » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:01 am

I can imagine all brown and black faces becoming second class citizens (officially) in the western world one day but here in the UK under Labour, this is just simply despicable.

They might as well ask immigrants to pay for the chavs and the hoodies up instead of all this - immigrants need to pay for schools - what the f*** do my taxes pay for then. Last time I checked a percentage of my council tax went towards schools in my borough.

What is all this nambi pambi faffing about by the government - oh we want the right immigrants to come to the UK and want to control it and all this bullshit…generating all this uncertainty with retrospective changes on residency and HSMP and now this makes life so much difficult for a legal immigrant.

But hey the government does not mention anything about the 500,000 asylum applicants that are on the loose in the UK and will never be caught in this net and will never assimilate.

If any part of the immigrant community that will assimilate is the skilled workers and work permit holders who pay their taxes, speak English and abide by the law.

How many Brit’s get involved in ‘community service’ etc not that I am averse to community service. But this should not be a criteria for citizenship. As long as I pay my taxes and abide by the law, why should there be any more hindrances. I do charity in my own way by giving money to various charities.

This is really frustrating……..I will out of spite not vote Labour in any of the up coming election. With the way it is going for Gordon it does not look like we are anyways going to have a ’snap’ election. We might just have to suffer under this unelected premier!

heretic
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Post by heretic » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:08 am

Apologies for this but just to add to my rant..........

I blame the Tories for all this - if they weren't becoming stronger then Labour under our unelected premier would have been very comfortable in their cubbyhole mulling over their glorious 10 years in power

dnicky
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Post by dnicky » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:46 am

As I can see it in the green paper the full bill will be submitted to the parliament by end of November 2008. So it looks like the new rules could come into force sometimes early next year.
Again whether BIA is going to apply the rules retrospectively or not is anybody's guess !

1963British
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Post by 1963British » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:23 am

Having lived in the USA most of my life as a dual national, I have to say that the systems in place here in the United Kingdom are superior than that in America. Other than anyone can overstay in the USA, make up a false employment number, get a job with wink wink nod, and worry little about ever getting prosecuted or thrown out!

The valid complaint here in the UK is that it seems like the politicians like overhauling the system every two years leaving law abiding workers and family members of British Citizens wondering where they stand. Worse, much of the overhaul seems to be pandering to the voters who want to see "something done" when the reality is that the change is cosmetic.

As I wrote in some of my earlier comments, it does not look like the immigrant who wants to become a Citizen will see much change or lengthening of the timeline. The only bone that was thrown around is that you need to do some volunteer work to stay on the timeline you had already planned out.

How much effort will you have to expend as a volunteer? That is unknown but we have a history of reforms as a guide. First we had the rule change requiring "the Oath." Then we had the rule change requiring "Life in the UK." Both of those are rather simple to meet!!!

Now on gaining more fees, that is a whole another story. Politicians know how to get revenue. But the abstract feel good pandering to the voters, will be in my opinion something very simple and easy to meet.

When I brought my wife to the UK, having been married a very long time, I got her involved with a charity immediately to do something. Its a good idea simply to experience it as you might get something out of it.

RobinLondon
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Post by RobinLondon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:55 am

1963British, I think you should respond to both the consultation just launched as part of this green paper and the citizenship review now being conducted by Lord Goldsmith. I think you have some cogent arguments that you are able to present in an articulate manner. Hopefully your contribution will not only benefit your wife, but others in a similar position.

martin001
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Post by martin001 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:59 am

UKbound wrote:Based upon what they're saying.. It's probably not that different.. It would be 2 years of residency, which would have limited benefits.. and then 1+ years of "probationary citizenship", that would be only 1 year if your spouse were to volunteer enough (based on criteria not yet determined).. and potentially more money than now for fees and to offset any impact to your council.
thanks mate, so it hasn't really changed that much then.

Emma84
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Post by Emma84 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:22 pm

Omg, I am so confused. Why can't the gov't ever say anything straight out?
I looked at the official document on the BIA website and I already have permanent residence, so technically I'm already on probationary citizenship??

And whoever said it back on page 3 of this thread, so they're talking in force by July 09? If that's the case, I am eligible to apply for citizenship in January 09, so does this mean I will skip all this stuff that they are proposing?

RAJ2007
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Post by RAJ2007 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:30 pm

What about 10yrs rule? Are they going to abolish that one?

RobinLondon
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Post by RobinLondon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:53 pm

RAJ2007 wrote:What about 10yrs rule? Are they going to abolish that one?
Discussed here: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 8eff8dcfdc

SYH
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Post by SYH » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Its all nonsense.
First they extend ILR from 4 to 5 years claiming that brings them in line to rest of Europe. Then they add this additional step. What does this bring it line with? Nothing. So they justify their actions by referencing others and they don't justify their actions by making it up along the way. PUlease

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