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Am I a citizen by descent? please help!

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dave21683
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Am I a citizen by descent? please help!

Post by dave21683 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:42 pm

I hope that someone could please help me clear up my eligibility for a UK passport.
My mother was born in New Zealand, but she was registered as a UK Citizen in 1972. It says 'Registered as a citizen of the UK and Colonies under section 6 (2) of British Nationality Act 1948' on her certificate. She obtained this through her first marriage to a British born male.

She later divorced him, and had moved back to NZ when I was born in June 83 (to a NZ father). My mother still holds UK citizenship today though and was granted a British passport in 1992 (which was the first time she ever applied for a passport)

I believe that how she acquired her citizenship makes her a citizen otherwise than by descent? and that would make me a British citizen by descent automatically at birth. I have read online that if you were registered under section 6 (2) then you are a British citizen by descent, if your husband was a citizen by descent. But since her husband was born in England, that makes him, and effectively her, a British citizen otherwise than by descent?

The only thing is, since she hasn’t spoken to her ex husband in about 30 years, proving that he was ‘otherwise than by descent’ would be quite hard. It does say on her certificate of registration however that he was born in England in 1943. Will this be enough for me to use?

Any help anyone can give me would be much appreciated!

Thanks a lot!!
Dave

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Post by vinny » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:55 am

I think that being born in the UK in 1943 would automatically make him a citizen "otherwise than by descent".
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

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Re: Am I a citizen by descent? please help!

Post by JAJ » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:21 am

dave21683 wrote:I hope that someone could please help me clear up my eligibility for a UK passport.
My mother was born in New Zealand, but she was registered as a UK Citizen in 1972. It says 'Registered as a citizen of the UK and Colonies under section 6 (2) of British Nationality Act 1948' on her certificate. She obtained this through her first marriage to a British born male.

She later divorced him, and had moved back to NZ when I was born in June 83 (to a NZ father). My mother still holds UK citizenship today though and was granted a British passport in 1992 (which was the first time she ever applied for a passport)

I believe that how she acquired her citizenship makes her a citizen otherwise than by descent? and that would make me a British citizen by descent automatically at birth. I have read online that if you were registered under section 6 (2) then you are a British citizen by descent, if your husband was a citizen by descent. But since her husband was born in England, that makes him, and effectively her, a British citizen otherwise than by descent?

The only thing is, since she hasn’t spoken to her ex husband in about 30 years, proving that he was ‘otherwise than by descent’ would be quite hard. It does say on her certificate of registration however that he was born in England in 1943. Will this be enough for me to use?

Any help anyone can give me would be much appreciated!

Thanks a lot!!
Dave
You've done well to get as far as you have done. And you are absolutely right that a woman registered as a Citizen of the UK & Colonies under s6(2) of the 1948 Act based on marriage to a man who became a British citizen otherwise than by descent on 1.1.83 also became a British citizen otherwise than by descent herself.

And anyone born in the U.K. itself automatically became British otherwise than by descent.

By all means use the registration cert, but it also wouldn't hurt to get a copy of his birth cert from the GRO: http://www.gro.gov.uk

You will probably also need a copy of their marriage certificate.

Be careful with sending off an original of the registration certificate as there is a risk it could get lost (which would be your problem, not theirs).

Also don't be surprised if your passport application takes longer than usual. The High Commission staff won't see many cases like yours and they will probably want to get clearance from London.

dave21683
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Post by dave21683 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:58 am

wow that's great! thanks a lot.

Only, if I try to get his birth certificate, am I allowed to do this? Will they issue it to me considering its not my certificate?

Also, as for not sending the original registration certificate, what makes you think it might get lost? I read that they do not accept photocopies of anything so how might I get around this?

Thanks again!
Dave

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Post by vinny » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:38 am

dave21683 wrote:Only, if I try to get his birth certificate, am I allowed to do this? Will they issue it to me considering its not my certificate?
It's a part of your family tree.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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Post by JAJ » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:04 am

dave21683 wrote:wow that's great! thanks a lot.

Only, if I try to get his birth certificate, am I allowed to do this? Will they issue it to me considering its not my certificate?
In the United Kingdom there are no restrictions on obtaining someone else's birth certificate, at least for now.
Also, as for not sending the original registration certificate, what makes you think it might get lost? I read that they do not accept photocopies of anything so how might I get around this?
Things often get lost/misfiled in government departments, and in transit. They may well say that they don't accept copies, but that doesn't mean they really won't accept them.

If the worst comes to the worst, could you travel to Wellington to show it in person if they ask?

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:40 am

dave21683 wrote:Also, as for not sending the original registration certificate, what makes you think it might get lost? I read that they do not accept photocopies of anything so how might I get around this?
You can send them a copy. Or send them a copy which is certified to be a true copy of the original (usually done by a lawyer or a notary).

If they need to see the original, they will ask you for it.

Remember you are, and have always been, a UK citizen. Even if you never had access to her certificate of registration.

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Post by dave21683 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:27 pm


If the worst comes to the worst, could you travel to Wellington to show it in person if they ask?
Actually I am living in London now. I am on a working holiday visa but it will expire later this year, which led to me investigating this in the first place.
This isn't something I will have to apply for from New Zealand is it?

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Post by vinny » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:32 pm

Once you have all your documents, you may apply for a passport or ID card or also a UK Consular Birth Certificate in the UK.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

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Post by JAJ » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:50 pm

vinny wrote:Once you have all your documents, you may apply for a passport or ID card or also a UK Consular Birth Certificate in the UK.
ID cards aren't here yet.

As for consular birth registration, they don't do this for people born in New Zealand (which doesn't affect a claim to British citizenship, just evidence of same).

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:15 am

dave21683 wrote:Actually I am living in London now. I am on a working holiday visa but it will expire later this year, which led to me investigating this in the first place. This isn't something I will have to apply for from New Zealand is it?
It appears you already have the citizenship and are just applying for a passport. Applying in the UK is cheaper and 5m people a year do it.

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Post by dave21683 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:12 pm

Can anyone tell me why someone born before 1983 cannot apply to be registered due to their mother being registered under section 6 (2) of the 1948 registration act?

I was looking at the requirements for my brother to also claim through our mother, but there was a point saying you are ineligable if this is how your mother was granted citizenship…

This doesn't effect me as well does it (being born after 1983) ***fingers crossed****

thanks!

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:39 pm

The cheeky answer is that it is various acts of parliament and case law going back that make UK citizenship law so much of a dog's breakfast.

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Post by JAJ » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:38 am

dave21683 wrote:Can anyone tell me why someone born before 1983 cannot apply to be registered due to their mother being registered under section 6 (2) of the 1948 registration act?

I was looking at the requirements for my brother to also claim through our mother, but there was a point saying you are ineligable if this is how your mother was granted citizenship…
Before I tell you the history of this, can you please clarify:

- what date did your mother get married? [in particular, was it before or after 28 October 1971] (note this is the date of marriage, not when she became a citizen)

- what year was your brother born?

- do you have any U.K. born grandparents (either male or female)

It won't affect you as you come under the 1983 rules, but the rules before that were different and the answers are pertinent to any eligibility your brother may have now.

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Post by dave21683 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:57 am

JAJ wrote:
- what date did your mother get married? [in particular, was it before or after 28 October 1971] (note this is the date of marriage, not when she became a citizen)
it was NOVEMBER 1971....a few weeks late.
JAJ wrote:
- what year was your brother born?
1980
JAJ wrote:
- do you have any U.K. born grandparents (either male or female)
No unfortunately...
JAJ wrote: It won't affect you as you come under the 1983 rules, but the rules before that were different and the answers are pertinent to any eligibility your brother may have now
Why is this exactly? I thought that the whole law change in 1983 meant that people could backdate applications for citizenship that they should have got had the law been the same as what the 83 bill was changing it to. But if he can't get it seems weird that I can (not that I am complaining!)

Cheers

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Post by JAJ » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:58 pm

dave21683 wrote: Why is this exactly? I thought that the whole law change in 1983 meant that people could backdate applications for citizenship that they should have got had the law been the same as what the 83 bill was changing it to. But if he can't get it seems weird that I can (not that I am complaining!)
Good question! The reply is a little long-winded, so here goes:

Generally speaking, a person registered as a Citizen of the UK & Colonies (CUKC) in the United Kingdom - which included registration by the British High Commission in an independent Commonwealth country (something not possible since 1983) - was sufficient to confer Right of Abode (ROA) in the United Kingdom under the Immigration Act 1971 (in force from 1 January 1973).

However, section 2(2) of the 1971 Act provided that:

"... in subsection (1)(a) and (b) above references to registration as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies shall not, in the case of a woman, include registration after the passing of this Act [28 October 1971] under or by virtue of section 6(2) (wives) of the British Nationality Act 1948 unless she is so registered by virtue of her marriage to a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies before the passing of this Act."

So your mother did not get Right of Abode through her registration as a CUKC, because she was married only after the cut-off date of 28.10.71.
It didn't matter to her because the Act gave her ROA based on her husband.

Fast forward to 2003 and the new section 4C of the British Nationality Act 1981, to deal with overseas born children of British mothers. There are three requirements to register as a British citizen under the Act:

- born between 8 Feb 1961 and 31 December 1982 (clearly your brother is ok here); and

- would have been a CUKC if women had been able to pass on their CUKC status in the same way as men at the time (again, no issues here as any man naturalised or registered as CUKC could normally pass it on, except some specific exceptions not relevant here).

- if your brother had been a CUKC before 1983, he would have had Right of Abode in the United Kingdom. This is where it gets more problematic. For the purposes of ROA under the Immigration Act 1971, your mother was not considered "registered in the United Kingdom" so your brother could not have got ROA based on her status. If neither parent nor grandparent had a UK link, and if he didn't get ROA based on his own UK residence pre 1983 (clearly impossible) then he would not have acquired a Right of Abode in the U.K. under the Immigration Act 1971 as it was at the time. Hence he would not have become a British citizen on 1.1.1983 but instead would have become a British Overseas citizen on 1.1.1983.

And hence, he does not meet the third requirement for section 4C registration, so can't register as a British citizen now.

Unfortunately he can't get Right of Abode either, for the same reason. And with no U.K. born grandparents, the Ancestry Visa is out too.

You had the benefit of a loophole in the 1981 Act. Really, to be consistent with the terms of the 1971 Act, section 14 of the 1981 Act should have included your mother's situation as leading to British citizenship "by descent". But it did not do so - the only s6(2) registration women who became British citizens by descent were those whose husbands became British citizens by descent (or would have become, if living).

And by default, every British citizen not specifically defined as a British citizen by descent automatically became a British citizen "otherwise than by descent".

So what it boils down to is that you have effectively been able to benefit from the fact your mother's ex-husband was U.K. born, while the pre-1983 combination of citizenship/immigration laws does not confer the same benefit on your brother.

I'm open to correction if anyone else can do better than this.

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Post by dave21683 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:19 pm

Wow you really know your stuff! Thanks a lot :D

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Post by dave21683 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:00 am

sorry i have a couple more questions..

I am on a working holiday visa at the moment, which will expire (the working side of it anyway) in mid April this year. I heard a rumour that there is a possiblity of getting an extention of my working allowance if I am applying for a passport. Does anyone know if this is true?
Just until I actually have the passport, it will make getting a job rather hard if everyone thinks I can only work for another 7 weeks...

And also, does anyone know where I can get copies of my documents certified as being true copies? I cant seem to find anywhere that does it. Preferably something free or cheap...

Thanks

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Post by VictoriaS » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:34 pm

Any high street solicitor can do it, but not for free.

I doubt you will be able to get the working bit extended I'm afraid.

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Post by toaster » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:19 pm

JAJ wrote:<snip>
Fast forward to 2003 and the new section 4C of the British Nationality Act 1981, to deal with overseas born children of British mothers. There are three requirements to register as a British citizen under the Act:

- born between 8 Feb 1961 and 31 December 1982 (clearly your brother is ok here); and

- would have been a CUKC if women had been able to pass on their CUKC status in the same way as men at the time (again, no issues here as any man naturalised or registered as CUKC could normally pass it on, except some specific exceptions not relevant here).

- if your brother had been a CUKC before 1983, he would have had Right of Abode in the United Kingdom. This is where it gets more problematic. For the purposes of ROA under the Immigration Act 1971, your mother was not considered "registered in the United Kingdom" so your brother could not have got ROA based on her status. If neither parent nor grandparent had a UK link, and if he didn't get ROA based on his own UK residence pre 1983 (clearly impossible) then he would not have acquired a Right of Abode in the U.K. under the Immigration Act 1971 as it was at the time. Hence he would not have become a British citizen on 1.1.1983 but instead would have become a British Overseas citizen on 1.1.1983.
JAJ earlier in another thread wrote: If your mother was born in the Republic of Ireland (as opposed to Northern Ireland) then as far as I can see you are not eligible for this concession. The reason for this is that your mother is herself a British citizen "by descent", as she was born outside the United Kingdom.
I'm getting a little curious now as to whether I can become a Britizish citizen or not.

I was born in 1980. To a mother that was born in (southern) Ireland to British parents (they were working over there roughly from when she was born til when she was 10). She has a UK passport, and her parents are both UK citizens (from a looooong line of other UK citizens).

As my mother gained her UK citizenship by descent, is this why I am not able to apply to be a UK citizen? And does that fall under the second or third requirement (just out of curiosity).

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Post by VictoriaS » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:52 pm

Did your mum move back to the UK at any point between age 10 and your birth?

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Post by JAJ » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:47 am

toaster wrote: I was born in 1980. To a mother that was born in (southern) Ireland to British parents (they were working over there roughly from when she was born til when she was 10). She has a UK passport, and her parents are both UK citizens (from a looooong line of other UK citizens).

As my mother gained her UK citizenship by descent, is this why I am not able to apply to be a UK citizen? And does that fall under the second or third requirement (just out of curiosity).
You're ruled out by the second requirement. Had your mother been able to pass on her British nationality on the same basis as men could, you still would not have been a CUKC at birth, assuming you were born in Australia and not a protectorate, or something.

Out of interest, when was your mother born?

And any chance that your parents were in Crown Service when you were born?

If you lived in the U.K. as a minor you could have been registered as a British citizen, but if that didn't take place that option is closed now.

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Post by JAJ » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:49 am

VictoriaS wrote:Did your mum move back to the UK at any point between age 10 and your birth?
I'm not sure what relevance that has, with respect.

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Post by dave21683 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:45 pm

Hi once more,
Just thought I would drop you all a line to say that I applied for my passport, and I got it!
I ended up sending all the originals, as I couldn't find anyone to certify them, but they all made it back ok. I applied using the check and send service at the post office, and within 2 weeks i had a letter informing me I had to attend an interview, and then only a few days after that my passport arrived! the whole thing was extremely quick.
Thanks SO much to everyone who helped me out with advice. Much appriciated!!

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Post by JAJ » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:34 am

Congratulations on your new passport. Make sure you keep careful records of your citizenship status (incl expired passports) so you don't have problems in future.

Do you want to pass your British citizenship onto any non-U.K. born children you may have in future?

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