Spouse visa problems - HO wants course attendance records?

tusken · Post by **tusken** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:05 pm

I am a british citizen and recently married my chinese wife. We obtained a COA and have applied for a spouse visa. She has currently got a 1 year student visa (and has also had four student visas before that - so she has been here 5 years) The Home office have requested her attendance records for her course.

These will show a poor attendance record because to be honest the course she was doing (accountancy) was not realistically going to enable her to become a chartered accountant, and frankly, as our marriage is 100% genuine, we did not think there was any need for her to keep up with a course that served no purpose.

We meet all the criteria for a spouse visa and nowhere in my internet research have i encountered this situation. She is changing her status into a spouse visa, she isnt applying for another student visa - so why are they asking this question?

How do people suggest this situation is dealt with? We can try to explain that the course was not really suitable/that once she moved in with me it was more difficult to attend. Will this be enough?

Surely they cannot refuse her on the strength of a poor attendance record? She is staying here on the strength of our marriage, not on the strength of her attendance.

Does this query relate to the genuineness of our marriage? (we have only been together for 1 year so i accept that questions could be asked about that) As long as we can prove that our marriage is genuine, we should be ok right?

Post by **vinny** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:05 pm

They may comment that although she had valid leave, she was in breach of the conditions stipulated by that leave; i.e. to undertake 15 hours of classroom study per week.

However, you may rely on the judicial review case of Zhou. This judgment establishes that mere non-attendance upon a course of studies does not place a student in breach of his/her conditions.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:14 pm

Could be bad.

If she on a student visa and hasn't been attending she's technically overstaying, by not observing the terms of the visa. The HO dictate the terms of her LTR, it's not up the student to vary them at will.

The immigration belt is tightening, they're looking at any excuse to refuse, and they've got a perfect one here.

If it was me I'd withdraw the spouse app and return home immediately and reapply from there. I would not want a black mark on my immigration record especially now. Remember the HO has to power to blacklist people now for up to ten years.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:23 pm

Yes but as vinny's link points out, not showing up for class doesn't mean one has broken the terms of the visa.

I don't know what would happen if, for example, she has been working in excess of her 20 hours allowed as a student. If she's been working more than this, then she might be in trouble. And, naturally, point 1 might lead them to point 2 (poor attendance = doing something else? = working more than 20 hours).

Still, I can't see why they could refuse her a spouse visa...

Post by **vinny** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:48 pm

See also Decus et Tutamen's post.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm

sakura wrote:Yes but as vinny's link points out, not showing up for class doesn't mean one has broken the terms of the visa.

I don't know what would happen if, for example, she has been working in excess of her 20 hours allowed as a student. If she's been working more than this, then she might be in trouble. And, naturally, point 1 might lead them to point 2 (poor attendance = doing something else? = working more than 20 hours).

Still, I can't see why they could refuse her a spouse visa...

Is it a case of not showing up for classes or completely giving the course up - like this sounds?

Having a quick glance at the Zhou case it seems his case was based on poor attendance, not giving up completely....

tusken · Post by **tusken** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:08 pm

Thanks for your helpful replies
this is a case of poor attendance on the course. she did not formally give it up. My view would be that this is not a breach of her visa. she has not worked in excess of 20 hrs per week and she has not overstayed - her student visa hasnt expired yet and we already have the spouse application in

tusken · Post by **tusken** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:45 pm

i am really really worried that the Home Office will still try to refuse the application though

another point. back in July she sought immigration advice from a lawyer. At that time her course attendance wasnt very good and she told the lawyer that. The lawyer said that she should apply for a spouse visa, and never said anything about the fact that poor attendance could be a problem, or advised her that she should go to the course anyway as it did make a difference. My wife definitely relied on that advice, to her clear detriment now.

Is this something we should be explaining to the home office now, along with the zhou case?

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:19 pm

To be fair, back in July the HO were doing things very different, and they probably would not have asked for this info. In fact, it could well have been me who gave this advice!

If the attendence record is bad then do explain, mention Zhou, and it should not be refused. If it is, I believe that refusal would be unlawful.

Victoria

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:22 pm

VictoriaS wrote:To be fair, back in July the HO were doing things very different, and they probably would not have asked for this info. In fact, it could well have been me who gave this advice!

If the attendence record is bad then do explain, mention Zhou, and it should not be refused. If it is, I believe that refusal would be unlawful.

Victoria

Would it depend on the poor attendance being kind of turning up once every fortnight for the whole term being ok, or say good attendance for the first half, none for the second, how would that be viewed?

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:26 pm

That's the problem. It is highly subjective.

Victoria

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:31 pm

VictoriaS wrote:That's the problem. It is highly subjective.

Victoria

And isn't there the edict of 'satisfactory progress' with a student visa - irrespective of attendance?

So from that someone could hardly attend yet still make satisfactory progress, but if no effort to comply with the course has been made....

Pen for Spurs.........

1-1!

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:33 pm

Thanks for the update - I hate both teams so much I stayed at home to watch 'Doctor Who'!

If there is satisfactory progress then any problems over attendence will be reduced, if not nullified.

Victoria

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:47 pm

VictoriaS wrote:Thanks for the update - I hate both teams so much I stayed at home to watch 'Doctor Who'!

If there is satisfactory progress then any problems over attendence will be reduced, if not nullified.

Victoria

So again from that, if there is poor attendance, and no satisfactory progress, the Zhou would not apply?

And maybe the OP might want to be aware of that?

And it's of interest to me, with my gf being on a student visa and having been off with illness and me worrying for subsequent visa purposes....

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:31 pm

To be honest I have not read all of the implications of Zhou. I know the basics, but it's not a case I am familiar enough with to answer your question.

Now how's that for honesty from a legal professional?

Victoria

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:24 pm

tusken wrote:I am a british citizen and recently married my chinese wife. We obtained a COA and have applied for a spouse visa. She has currently got a 1 year student visa (and has also had four student visas before that - so she has been here 5 years) The Home office have requested her attendance records for her course.

These will show a poor attendance record because to be honest the course she was doing (accountancy) was not realistically going to enable her to become a chartered accountant, and frankly, as our marriage is 100% genuine, we did not think there was any need for her to keep up with a course that served no purpose.

The statement that the marriage is genuine is ridiculous. Her basis of stay was on a student visa not marriage so stop using genuine as some kind of protective armour for being silly and not attending the course like you should have. Sheesh" People need to take more responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

We meet all the criteria for a spouse visa and nowhere in my internet research have i encountered this situation. She is changing her status into a spouse visa, she isnt applying for another student visa - so why are they asking this question? Are you REALLY going to feign ignorance? Maybe because her actions indicate deceit and dishonesty and they don't have to approve this visa on the basis of bad behaviour on a prior visa. Don't mess with the hospitality of the HOHow do people suggest this situation is dealt with? We can try to explain that the course was not really suitable/that once she moved in with me it was more difficult to attend. Will this be enough?

That is also ridiculous. Then why did you sign up for it and never drop the course and then sign up for a different course.
Surely they cannot refuse her on the strength of a poor attendance record? She is staying here on the strength of our marriage, not on the strength of her attendance. Really then why was she on a student visa for 5 years. Stop muddying the facts. HO isn't stupid
Does this query relate to the genuineness of our marriage? (we have only been together for 1 year so i accept that questions could be asked about that) As long as we can prove that our marriage is genuine, we should be ok right?

chrissy · Post by **chrissy** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:45 am

SMH @ SYH, you are really not helping.

douces · Post by **douces** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:13 am

my mom been thru the same problem she was on a student visa then grranted COA then apply for flrm then got a letter from home office asking for attendance so her gp gave a letter to say she was sick then a week later she was granted her spouse visa that was in 2006 the home office want to find out if you just apply for the student just to get married any good luck

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:20 am

chrissy wrote:SMH @ SYH, you are really not helping.

I disagree.
Its a reality check.
When people start to own up to their situation, then they will be in a better position to defend it.

chrissy · Post by **chrissy** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:13 am

I disagree.
Its a reality check.
When people start to own up to their situation, then they will be in a better position to defend it.

True.

meerkat70 · Post by **meerkat70** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:21 pm

I'm a university lecturer. Before you panic about this, I'd ask them what documents they offer in this regard. For a student on one of my courses, I'd probably simply offer an enrolment record - we don't necessarily keep records of day to day attendance (in fact rarely do, except for seminars). So it may be the case that there's nothing in the attendance record that would prejudice your application anyway.

hth

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:43 pm

chrissy wrote:
I disagree.
Its a reality check.
When people start to own up to their situation, then they will be in a better position to defend it.
True.

Thanks. I dont make comments to be funny just to make people think about what they are doing so they can focus and get on with what needs to be done..

tusken · Post by **tusken** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:59 pm

an update for those who have been following this:

facts: my wife had successfully applied for 4 student visas in the last 4 years, doing various courses - with good attendance each time, hence the extensions being granted

the letter we supplied for attendance showed that she had 82% for the first term of last year, January to july - but since i proposed to her in august, and she was unhappy with her course, and because the legal advice she received mentioned nothing about keeping on with the course being an important factor - so she did not attend for the final 4 months.

being worried, we sought legal advice again recently and were advised that the visa should not be refused. But sure enough on friday it was. the reason - non attendance for the final 4 months

so now we are going to have to appeal - based mainly on zhou.

any advice on the documents to accompany the appeal form would be appreciated. should we attach witness statements from various sources to show the genuineness of our marriage, etc - or is all this irrelevant and we should stick purely to our case that a refusal on the grounds of non attendance in the few months leading up to a marriage, is unlawful, based on zhou.

is there a case for saying that a refusal breaches human rights to family life? breach of immigration law because you have overworked etc is one thing - but for not attending the final few months of a course, when you had been a good student for 4.5 years and marriage had changed your future life plans? attendance on the course is not a condition attached to the student visa - zhou is clear on this. so non attendance (in a limited sense) is not a breach -we hope!

aka189 · Post by **aka189** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:24 am

Hi,

Show all the evidences with the appeal as per Immigration Rules requirement.

For marriage evidences, gather as much witness statements as possible and if you have marriage photoes to show that the witness was present at the wedding then it will be very good. Do submit your wedding photographs as well. Submit communication proof to show that before marriage you were in touch very often for example email, phone bills, messenger contacts. Submit proof that you are living together like joint bills or joint bank accounts. Also show that you have enough money to maintain both of you and aslo have accommodation.

I think you have very good chance in appeal and your case will be won on immigration rules only, no need to put Human Rights in between. The immigration judge will definitely ask all questions to you if you attend the hearing and as your wife was genuinely studying for 4.5 years, the judge will definitly take this into his consideration.

But you will have to wait as the appeal process takes some time I'm afraid.

I would still advice you to take some professional advice and don't do appeals on your own.

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Spouse visa problems - HO wants course attendance records?

Spouse visa problems - HO wants course attendance records?

Spouse visa problems - HO wants course attendance records?

Re: Spouse visa problems - HO wants course attendance record