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Naturalisation Referee

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

Please use this section of the board if there is no specific section for your query.

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a_bentz
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Naturalisation Referee

Post by a_bentz » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:41 pm

hi all,

just a quick question as i cant seem to find an answer on any other threads. i have a friend who is applying soon to be naturalised. under the referee that needs to have known you for 3 years section. it clearly states that they dont have to be a british citizen in the guide but it dosnt state if that person has to be living in the uk. have we got it wrong and does the person of professional standing need to be resident in the uk. my friend who is applying lives in the uk.

thank you for any help.
Last edited by a_bentz on Mon May 26, 2008 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SYH
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Post by SYH » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:56 pm

I think logic would dictate that the referree have some connection to the UK

1963British
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Post by 1963British » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:03 pm

I am going to respectfully "disagree" with SYH. In my own experience with the BIA, I always go back to the actual caseworking instructions that are available for download at the BIA website. Everything else, I will toss as rubish. In fact, the guides themselves given to the public at large ultimately refer back to the caseworking instructions.

Chapter 6 would appear to be the section that would govern what would apply for your friend, in particular 6.3.6. There is no reference what so ever that a referee have "some connection to the UK." While the spirit of the guidelines may imply some connection the actual language in the caseworking instructions say nothing of the kind.

A complete reading of the caseworking sections indicates that you could have a referee who is a doctor located in and a citizen of "tim buk too" and the second referee is a 26 year old British Citizen by descent living in
Columbia, who has never set foot in the UK but happens to carry a British Passport!!

In my opinion, any application for Naturalisation or Registration should probably avoid anything that would appear "odd" to a caseworker simply from the viewpoint that an oddity, though permissable, may greatly extend the time to approve an application.

All that being said, if your friend followed the "letter of the guidelines," I would highly encourage a cover letter that explains in detail how those chosen referees follow the guidleines as stated by The Home Secretary.

Lastly, I say all this in deference to the exemplery planning which created the PPRON method which followed the guidelines perfectly until they shut it down in a rewrite of the guidelines.

SYH
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Post by SYH » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:16 pm

1963British wrote:I am going to respectfully "disagree" with SYH. In my own experience with the BIA, I always go back to the actual caseworking instructions that are available for download at the BIA website. Everything else, I will toss as rubish. In fact, the guides themselves given to the public at large ultimately refer back to the caseworking instructions.

Chapter 6 would appear to be the section that would govern what would apply for your friend, in particular 6.3.6. There is no reference what so ever that a referee have "some connection to the UK." While the spirit of the guidelines may imply some connection the actual language in the caseworking instructions say nothing of the kind.

A complete reading of the caseworking sections indicates that you could have a referee who is a doctor located in and a citizen of "tim buk too" and the second referee is a 26 year old British Citizen by descent living in
Columbia, who has never set foot in the UK but happens to carry a British Passport!!

In my opinion, any application for Naturalisation or Registration should probably avoid anything that would appear "odd" to a caseworker simply from the viewpoint that an oddity, though permissable, may greatly extend the time to approve an application.

All that being said, if your friend followed the "letter of the guidelines," I would highly encourage a cover letter that explains in detail how those chosen referees follow the guidleines as stated by The Home Secretary.

Lastly, I say all this in deference to the exemplery planning which created the PPRON method which followed the guidelines perfectly until they shut it down in a rewrite of the guidelines.
I am all for constructive debate of what the requirement means. While I have no problem with your interpretation, it seems to me that you are begging for a rejection if there is no logical nexus to the UK. I think the HO can appreciate that you may not know a lot of people in the last 3-5 years of your residence in the UK and you may need to find referees outside of the UK. However, a referee is to make a recommendation of your ability to be a citizen. On what basis would someone who is not connected to the UK be able to make recommendation of your qualifications to be a citizen of the UK?
Again, a lawyer can state you are lawabiding which is a good start whether or not he is connected to the UK but honestly, it is not smart to use a lawyer who is not connected to the UK in some way. This connection can be that he is a citizen of the UK or he is licensed to practice law in the UK but not a UK citizen or resident. I don't think its wrong to use a professional person with no UK connection as referee. I do think its not a smart move to do so.

paulp
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Post by paulp » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:08 pm

I think there is another more important angle. First, should the home office require a reference from the referee, it will take longer to send the request and receive it back. Then, there are requirements that the referee himself/herself should not have done any prison time. Moreover, there is some background checking that needs to be done on the referee, and that will be made immensely harder for somebody in a foreign country.

Granted the OPs referee is a minister (not of religion I take it) but that can go either way. I know lots of countries where corruption in rife.

a_bentz
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Post by a_bentz » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:06 am

thanks for all the replies, their referee is a minister of religion in south africa and i understand if the home office do take up the referee the checks will take longer, but again it is not very clear in the guidance. my friend acutally rang the home office info line on friday and they didnt actually seem to know the answer either. the one guy on the phone said as long as the other referee is british over 25 and in the uk it should be fine. so if the home office info line dont know then who does. they are going to be flying over to one the peo offices in england so just didnt want them to go all that way to be told sorry.

thanks all, if dont get a def answer then ill post after they have applied to let u know if it was accepted.
Last edited by a_bentz on Mon May 26, 2008 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

paulp
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Post by paulp » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:11 pm

a_bentz wrote:they are going to be flying over to one the peo offices in england so just didnt want them to go all that way to be told sorry.
Naturalisation can't be applied for at the PEO. Did you mean the NCS?

a_bentz
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Location: Ireland

Post by a_bentz » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:02 pm

yeah sorry my mistake. ive never personally used one of these services.

gaman
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Post by gaman » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:01 pm

Just wondering, for the "person of professional standing" part of the referee, would a school headteacher in the UK be eligible to sign the form?
Any ideas?

vinny
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Post by vinny » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:01 pm

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

pantaiema
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BIA ??? Logical interpretation its selves will not be enough

Post by pantaiema » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:16 pm

The list of person of professional standing have been provided by Vinny in the following link

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... er6/annexa

To be 100% sure, we still need to get the report/information from the people who actually have followed this procedure. Experience have thought us, when come to BIA, logical interpretation in its own form will not be enough. Also, any offcials in BIA might have their own interpretation. We could only be 100% if it is written black & white on the guidance that non-UK citizen could act as a referee.

The main question to be answer here is that:
1. Have we ever seen/witnessed a case with non-UK citizen acting as a referee got approval?

2. Have we ever seen/witnessed a case with a UK citizen, who spent most of his life outside UK, acting as a referee got approval?

I think this is the main objective of this forum e.g. information sharing & Exchange.
Pantaiema

Xzibit1
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Second Referree- Naturalisation

Post by Xzibit1 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:24 pm

Hello,
I am due to apply for Naturalisation next month and I have a query on the second referee, who has to have a British Passport and has known you for 3 years.

I have a colleage who has known me for over 10 years, but he has just been naturalised in 2007 and got his British passport in December 2007. Therefore much as he has known me for 10 years, he has only had his British Passport for less than 1 year.

Does it matter how long he has held his British Passoprt, or he needs to have held it for 3 years before I can use him as a referee?

Cheers

pantaiema
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Re: Second Referree- Naturalisation

Post by pantaiema » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:48 pm

Xzibit1

It does not say that your referee need to get BC for over 3 years. So I fully believe eventough they just get ther passport yesterday, as long as they have known you for at least 3 years then you could use them as referee.

Just to remind you that BC does not differentiate how long you have been a BC. If you are a BC you hava the same right with those who have born in this country or have been BC for decades.


Xzibit1 wrote:Hello,
I am due to apply for Naturalisation next month and I have a query on the second referee, who has to have a British Passport and has known you for 3 years.

I have a colleage who has known me for over 10 years, but he has just been naturalised in 2007 and got his British passport in December 2007. Therefore much as he has known me for 10 years, he has only had his British Passport for less than 1 year.

Does it matter how long he has held his British Passoprt, or he needs to have held it for 3 years before I can use him as a referee?

Cheers
Pantaiema

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