UK visit non-eu family of Irish citizen

[madmedman]

Hello guys. Somehow I think this is a ridiculous question but I just couldn't find a concrete answer so far. I am an Irish citizen living with family in Ireland. We plan to visit the UK. My wife is on the normal Stamp 4 (not eufam). My four year old is also non-eu at present. Do I need to get visas for them to visit the UK or can they just accompany me with a marriage cert and a birth cert? If I do, do you know if its a normal visit visa or a different category. Is it an EEA permit that I need for them?

[madmedman]

Any help guys and gals?
I am hearing mixed views on this. Some say I just need a marriage certificate for my wife and birth cert for my daughter if we're traveling together. Or am I better off getting a visit visa or an eea family permit? I have gone through many posts over the last few days but still am as confused as ever.

Cheers.

[Richard W]

It's an inherently difficult question. There are two distinct cases:
(1) entering the UK in England, Wales or Scotland.
(2) entering the UK into Northern Ireland.

For case (1), if you could be assured of reaching a port of entry, the birth certificate and marriage certificate should suffice. (There may, however, be issues relating to authentication and translation.) However, your problem will be to persuade a ship or airline to carry your family - your big problem is boarding an aircraft or ship, not the possible refusal of entry.

For case (2), the problem is that there are no 'entry ports' on the inter-Irish border. The key points are:

(a) Unless your family has previous immigration issues with the UK, your family do not require leave to enter the UK (Immigration Act 1998 Section 7(1)). I am assuming all your issues have been resolved.
(b) The Common Travel Area does not apply to visa nationals, so normally, without a visa, it would be illegal for your family to just cross the Irish border without leave (Immigration Act 1971 Section 24(1)(a), combined with The Immigration (Control of Entry Through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972 Article 3(1)(b)(i) and 3(2). If they weren't visa nationals, they would have just as much right to cross the border as Irish nationals.

The question then is whether their being family members of an EEA national overrides their being visa nationals without visas. There might be no case law on this matter.

As a family permit is not a visa, it is arguable that a family permit would not permit them to cross the inter-Irish border! However, I do find it hard to believe that there would be any problem with having crossed the border while in possession of permits.

[madmedman]

Thank you Richard W.
Having gone through your post and another thread by ca.funke, it seems like this is still a grey area. I would have been more confident if my spouse had a 4 EUFAM. Unfortunately, She has a regular stamp 4 that complicates matters more.

I guess the smartest thing to do is to apply for a visit visa but I'm not sure if I have the time to do it. I am also not the kind of person that could fight his case articulately should I choose to take a risk. Unfortunately time is not on my side and we might just end up driving to Rosslare to (try to) take the ferry. That should be the biggest challenge. But I am not taking an encounter with IO too lightly. Last time I took a Ferry from Fishguard, I met immigration on both sides of the pond. Fighting your case three times in the same night is not going to be fun.

Would you have a link to the Immigration Act 1998 Section 7(1) just so I could give it a read and prepare myself?

Thanks again for your input.

[Richard W]

Sorry, I got the year wrong. The link is Immigration Act 1988 Section 7.

For talking to the IO in Wales, the relevant piece of law is Immigration (EEA) Regulation 2016 Article 11(4)(b). People successfully use it at the juxtaposed British immigration controls in France. This is a fairly accurate transposition of the relevant part of Directive 2004/38/EC.

[Wanderer]

If you fly to UK via Aer Lingus you don't need to show your passport at all, I do this all the time (Ryanair insist on a passport, it's their plane so....) I just use my PPSN card or Irish Driving licence (I'm British BTW).

Probs not strictly legal of course for visa nationals but it's your call....

[madmedman]

Sorry, I got the year wrong. The link is Immigration Act 1988 Section 7.

For talking to the IO in Wales, the relevant piece of law is Immigration (EEA) Regulation 2016 Article 11(4)(b). People successfully use it at the juxtaposed British immigration controls in France. This is a fairly accurate transposition of the relevant part of Directive 2004/38/EC.

Thanks very much Richard W. Appreciate the link. Thanks.

[madmedman]

If you fly to UK via Aer Lingus you don't need to show your passport at all, I do this all the time (Ryanair insist on a passport, it's their plane so....) I just use my PPSN card or Irish Driving licence (I'm British BTW).

Probs not strictly legal of course for visa nationals but it's your call....

Thanks. My wife does have a public services card but my four year old would need to show her passport I guess?

We really want to take the ferry as then we could freely drive around the uk. Would be much cheaper than hiring a car.

I guess the sensible thing to do would be to delay the trip and apply for a normal visitors visa for the wife and the daughter.

[Wanderer]

If you fly to UK via Aer Lingus you don't need to show your passport at all, I do this all the time (Ryanair insist on a passport, it's their plane so....) I just use my PPSN card or Irish Driving licence (I'm British BTW).

Probs not strictly legal of course for visa nationals but it's your call....

Thanks. My wife does have a public services card but my four year old would need to show her passport I guess?

We really want to take the ferry as then we could freely drive around the uk. Would be much cheaper than hiring a car.

I guess the sensible thing to do would be to delay the trip and apply for a normal visitors visa for the wife and the daughter.

My experience of taking the free with a car is that they do very occasionally ask for UK/proof of nationality, for me it was one time in twenty. I have heard the Guards watch Dublin Port now mainly for catching cars for VRT charges but that comes with an ID check...

Not cheap either, 300 quid or so for car and one passenger, budget £600 for the overnight to Liverpool with a cabin.

Also insurance, you might find you are only covered in EU for a few days a year, TPFT only, happened to me. Had to pay a surcharge of £60 a month....

[Richard W]

Thanks. My wife does have a public services card but my four year old would need to show her passport I guess?

Your wife and daughter will need their passports - unless you're planning to lie that they're Irish.

[madmedman]

My experience of taking the free with a car is that they do very occasionally ask for UK/proof of nationality, for me it was one time in twenty. I have heard the Guards watch Dublin Port now mainly for catching cars for VRT charges but that comes with an ID check...

Not cheap either, 300 quid or so for car and one passenger, budget £600 for the overnight to Liverpool with a cabin.

Also insurance, you might find you are only covered in EU for a few days a year, TPFT only, happened to me. Had to pay a surcharge of £60 a month....

Thanks. I guess it would be more expensive taking the Ferry to Liverpool, and an extremely long ride (~8 hours!). For us four passengers and the car is about ‎€350. Not too bad. But I guess the main reason for taking the car along is for the experience. Family hasn't ever taken the ferry, and I only once, after I brought the car over from the UK. I guess the insurance will cover me for the week at the very least. I know because they paid for my car rental in the UK last year, after one of their agents incorrectly advised me that I did not have third party extension in the EU.

When you say they occasionally ask for UK/proof of nationality, you mean the carrier/Ferry?

[madmedman]

Thanks. My wife does have a public services card but my four year old would need to show her passport I guess?

Your wife and daughter will need their passports - unless you're planning to lie that they're Irish.

That would be very obvious because we neither look nor speak like the Irish.
It all seems too risky. Losing the holidays is one thing, but having an adverse impact on my daughters or my wife's immigration history what i totally hope to avoid.

I guess i might apply for general visitor, or family permit? Which one would you advise?

[Wanderer]

My experience of taking the free with a car is that they do very occasionally ask for UK/proof of nationality, for me it was one time in twenty. I have heard the Guards watch Dublin Port now mainly for catching cars for VRT charges but that comes with an ID check...

Not cheap either, 300 quid or so for car and one passenger, budget £600 for the overnight to Liverpool with a cabin.

Also insurance, you might find you are only covered in EU for a few days a year, TPFT only, happened to me. Had to pay a surcharge of £60 a month....

Thanks. I guess it would be more expensive taking the Ferry to Liverpool, and an extremely long ride (~8 hours!). For us four passengers and the car is about ‎€350. Not too bad. But I guess the main reason for taking the car along is for the experience. Family hasn't ever taken the ferry, and I only once, after I brought the car over from the UK. I guess the insurance will cover me for the week at the very least. I know because they paid for my car rental in the UK last year, after one of their agents incorrectly advised me that I did not have third party extension in the EU.

When you say they occasionally ask for UK/proof of nationality, you mean the carrier/Ferry?

Not sure who it was actually but they asked for my passport and searched my car at Holyhead. They were choosing people at random. Was either the Police or the UKBA as it was then.

Have u registered the car in Ireland? The Guards are noting cars plates now at Dublin Port, all the Brits at work have been caught now!

[madmedman]

Not sure who it was actually but they asked for my passport and searched my car at Holyhead. They were choosing people at random. Was either the Police or the UKBA as it was then.

Have u registered the car in Ireland? The Guards are noting cars plates now at Dublin Port, all the Brits at work have been caught now!

I have paid VRT and the car is on Irish plates since december. I remember when I was boarding the ferry from Fishguard after I bought this car, I was greeted by immigration on both sides. The fellows on the UK side questioned me a bit and thought I was a motor trader and a frequent flyer despite the fact that it was my first time on a Ferry. And then there was a guard shouting "nationality?" in my window shortly after disembarking in Ireland. This is why I would possibly get my paperwork in order rather than take the risk of returning home the same night.

But then my brother, who is a british citizen and his wife a non-eu visa national, both living in the UK, have visited Ireland twice last year without a valid visa or a family permit. They also visited France without a marriage certificate and all they had to do was show them wedding photos in his phone which he still had them as he was newly married. So I guess everyone's experience is different.

[Richard W]

It all seems too risky. Losing the holidays is one thing, but having an adverse impact on my daughters or my wife's immigration history what i totally hope to avoid.

Travelling on passports and formal evidence of family relationships is perfectly legal so long as you enter via Immigration. You may need to seek them out on arrival. Issues may only arise if you can't find an Immigration Officer when you disembark at Fishguard, and there may actually be no legal issues. For the first few months in the UK, they won't be illegal immigrants if they can't find an IO as they don't need leave to enter the UK.

[madmedman]

It all seems too risky. Losing the holidays is one thing, but having an adverse impact on my daughters or my wife's immigration history what i totally hope to avoid.

Travelling on passports and formal evidence of family relationships is perfectly legal so long as you enter via Immigration. You may need to seek them out on arrival. Issues may only arise if you can't find an Immigration Officer when you disembark at Fishguard, and there may actually be no legal issues. For the first few months in the UK, they won't be illegal immigrants if they can't find an IO as they don't need leave to enter the UK.

We are kinda hoping to avoid immigration. The most my anxiety will allow me to fight our case would be me letting them know I am an Irish citizen and they are my family. Beyond that I may not be able to verbalise my point of view because of the intense shaking and fidgeting. Our plan however, is to spend a week with my brothers family. Used to get 6 monthly visitor visas in the past but since becoming an Irish citizen, I thought I might push my luck a little. Hope this will turn out well. Would you suggest I contact stenaline and ask if they would allow us to board?

[Wanderer]

Are you British as well?

[madmedman]

Are you British as well?

No. Just a new Irish Citizen. My youngest is also Irish by birth. My wife and older daughter are non-eu.