Further information letter for EC/38/2004 application

[Bobthemoggie]

Hey Guys, I am BC living working in Netherlands.For my non-eea dependent parents, I did application few months ago to EU host state, under EC/38/2004 in the Netherlands. Currently we're living together in NL under one roof from last 1/2 year. I was regularly sending money to my parents from UK, before brining them here. Now, I have got a letter from EU host state's immigration authority asking for more info:
Let me know if anybody have any experience with Dutch authorities.
Any help will be appreciated. Thanks a lot.
Its translated something like below:
" ...we still need information. :
# It is not enough from the documents that you both actually, in the country of origin ( in Netherlands), material - and to what extent - were supported by the resident.
# The need for material support has not been demonstrated.
Therefore, I hereby give you the opportunity to appeal to your new application with the following evidence.
- Evidence, including a certificate issued by the competent authority, showing that you are in need of material support in order to meet your basic needs in your country of origin or earlier stay, taking into account your financial and social condition.
- Evidence showing that the material support you received was necessary.
I also ask you to answer in writing the following questions and substantiate your answers as much as possible with supporting documents
1: Did you have income in {Country of origin} in the year for these applications in terms of income from work or benefits and, if so, did you provide these income with your basic needs?
2: Did you have any income from other sources or savings in {Country of origin} this year, and if so, to what extent did these incomes or savings provide you with your basic needs?
3: Did you have other income in addition to the support of the resident?"

I used to send regular money & also handed lumpsum cash, to my family members during my visits.

Is it necessary to get a lawyer at this stage.
Now, what options do I have in case of negative outcome.
- Can we reapply again
- Which other EU state are favourable to ADR immigration under EU laws (Germany / Belgium)



Thanks

[waqasars]

I dont know too much about dependent parents category but i guess appeal will be a good option for you.

I know someone they got the RC under EU law in 2 month.

[waqasars]

By the way where are you living in Netherlands?

[secret.simon]

in the country of origin ( in Netherlands),

Just to clarify, the country of origin in this case is not the Netherlands, it is the country that your parents are resident in.

The letter seems to be asking your parents to prove not only that they were financially dependent on you, but that they were dependent on you for basic material support in the country of origin.

Jia underlined that the situation of dependency is established by referring to the necessity of material support in the State of origin of the applicant.

This Freemovement article interprets the Reyes judgment to mean that "all that need be shown is the fact of past remittances".

So, did your parents show a history of (ideally regular bank payment) remittances from you to them in their country of origin?

These rules are based on the judgments of the ECJ/CJEU and hence are likely to be required in all EEA countries.

[Bobthemoggie]

in the country of origin ( in Netherlands),

Just to clarify, the country of origin in this case is not the Netherlands, it is the country that your parents are resident in.

The letter seems to be asking your parents to prove not only that they were financially dependent on you, but that they were dependent on you for basic material support in the country of origin.

Jia underlined that the situation of dependency is established by referring to the necessity of material support in the State of origin of the applicant.

This Freemovement article interprets the Reyes judgment to mean that "all that need be shown is the fact of past remittances".

So, did your parents show a history of (ideally regular bank payment) remittances from you to them in their country of origin?

These rules are based on the judgments of the ECJ/CJEU and hence are likely to be required in all EEA countries.

Thanks a lot for valued input.
Yes. I provided both money remitted from my account & its receipt into their account.
When I tried to submit detailed receipts of their local expenses the
, at the time of application many months ago, the officer at counter verbally said we don't need these many documents just money remitted bank statement is enough. And now it seems to be exactly opposite case.

What should be my approach in order to respond to this?
Should I take a lawyer now (if yes, does it have to be local / somebody from UK will be fine) / just respond at this stage & wait for outcome
Looks like they're trying to apply tricky impossible rule similar to UK ADR & after long endless wait, I need to scramble old documents suddenly.

As backup option, is there any track record of other EU country processing parents application in Schengen region.

Your help, pointers is highly appreciated.

Thanks a lot

[Bobthemoggie]

I dont know too much about dependent parents category but i guess appeal will be a good option for you.

I know someone they got the RC under EU law in 2 month.

I guess for spouse & child its super quick everywhere.
Ya. I'll go through that route & see.
Thanks a lot

[waqasars]

I know someone who got RC (Germany) for parents in 2 month.

[gokulatti]

I think you should go to appeal, this can be done with a lawyer or by yourself. If you choose a lawyer all correspondence between IND and you will be through the lawyer. So you can be in the UK whilst. You can contact the local Juridisch Loket and they can get you options.

[ALKB]

I know someone who got RC (Germany) for parents in 2 month.

Germany is tricky for parents because they will have trouble getting health insurance (parents are not covered under family insurance, only spouses and children).

[waqasars]

They have to pay separate insurance for them and the premium can be high.

[Bobthemoggie]

in the country of origin ( in Netherlands),

Just to clarify, the country of origin in this case is not the Netherlands, it is the country that your parents are resident in.

The letter seems to be asking your parents to prove not only that they were financially dependent on you, but that they were dependent on you for basic material support in the country of origin.

Jia underlined that the situation of dependency is established by referring to the necessity of material support in the State of origin of the applicant.

This Freemovement article interprets the Reyes judgment to mean that "all that need be shown is the fact of past remittances".

So, did your parents show a history of (ideally regular bank payment) remittances from you to them in their country of origin?

These rules are based on the judgments of the ECJ/CJEU and hence are likely to be required in all EEA countries.

Thanks a lot for valued input.
Yes. I provided both money remitted from my account & its receipt into their account.
When I tried to submit detailed receipts of their local expenses the
, at the time of application many months ago, the officer at counter verbally said we don't need these many documents just money remitted bank statement is enough. And now it seems to be exactly opposite case.

What should be my approach in order to respond to this?
Should I take a lawyer now (if yes, does it have to be local / somebody from UK will be fine) / just respond at this stage & wait for outcome
Looks like they're trying to apply tricky impossible rule similar to UK ADR & after long endless wait, I need to scramble old documents suddenly.

As backup option, is there any track record of other EU country processing parents application in Schengen region.

Your help, pointers is highly appreciated.

Thanks a lot

Dear Expert members,

Apart from above queries I would like to know- are there any questions above which are not mandatory to be answered?
Looking at time remaining, I guess I may not have time to engage solisitor & will need to do this myself at this clarification stage.

Your quick input will be highly regarded

Cheers

[Bobthemoggie]

I think you should go to appeal, this can be done with a lawyer or by yourself. If you choose a lawyer all correspondence between IND and you will be through the lawyer. So you can be in the UK whilst. You can contact the local Juridisch Loket and they can get you options.

hmm..
Dear Member,
Thanks for your input but,
I don't think I will be able to leave my non-EEA FM's in Netherlands & move to UK. I think I definitely need to continue living here.
Looks like Juridisch Locket is having lot of wait & need to hire solicitor directly (Kindly PM me if you know anybody good) Or at least respond by myself within given timeframe.

on separate line, could you tell me - how making one more application in case of refusal at appeal stage would benfit me? (Although we would have built 7/8 months living together but not a whole year yet)

Thanks a lot

[Bobthemoggie]

Are they trying to force stringent conditions of 'Stay on grounds of Article 8 of the ECHR' , only equivalent in the national route?

[gokulatti]

did you call them? yes it could take some time. just directly ask them for a advocate close to your location, and try to get an appointment with the advocate specializing in EU immigration law. that's what I did too. I cannot give you directly a advocates reference, its against forum policy.

[ALKB]

They have to pay separate insurance for them and the premium can be high.

I also at one point thought this was the extent of it since I know somebody who got statutory health insurance for his parents from Pakistan (after a lot of stress and desperation).

Turns out he was very lucky to get it, as statutory insurance providers can refuse to insure adults who newly arrived to Germany and have not had health insurance from a country with which Germany has an agreement for the two years prior.

So, parents of EEA nationals are depending on the goodwill of the insurance provider.

Private insurers will mostly refuse to take on people above a certain age, etc.

A forum member was unable to get German health insurance for his adult sister. The German health insurance system has not been designed for adults who have never worked in Germany, are not eligible for benefits (or don't want to take them so they won't cease to be financially dependent on their family member/become a burden to the host state), not studying/getting a qualification, and are not eligible for family insurance (like spouses and minor children).

So, Germany may not be the best place to try for Surinder Singh for parents or extended family members.

One may well be lucky and everything goes smoothly but it also may not.

[Bobthemoggie]

They have to pay separate insurance for them and the premium can be high.

I also at one point thought this was the extent of it since I know somebody who got statutory health insurance for his parents from Pakistan (after a lot of stress and desperation).

Turns out he was very lucky to get it, as statutory insurance providers can refuse to insure adults who newly arrived to Germany and have not had health insurance from a country with which Germany has an agreement for the two years prior.

So, parents of EEA nationals are depending on the goodwill of the insurance provider.

Private insurers will mostly refuse to take on people above a certain age, etc.

A forum member was unable to get German health insurance for his adult sister. The German health insurance system has not been designed for adults who have never worked in Germany, are not eligible for benefits (or don't want to take them so they won't cease to be financially dependent on their family member/become a burden to the host state), not studying/getting a qualification, and are not eligible for family insurance (like spouses and minor children).

So, Germany may not be the best place to try for Surinder Singh for parents or extended family members.

One may well be lucky and everything goes smoothly but it also may not.

What will be the case in terms of Parent's health insurance, if somebody decides to make Germany as their home?
Also, as parents Never worked there, is it a big problem for finding rental place? [i.e. is there any people - number of room ration & council registration]

Thanks

[ALKB]

They have to pay separate insurance for them and the premium can be high.

I also at one point thought this was the extent of it since I know somebody who got statutory health insurance for his parents from Pakistan (after a lot of stress and desperation).

Turns out he was very lucky to get it, as statutory insurance providers can refuse to insure adults who newly arrived to Germany and have not had health insurance from a country with which Germany has an agreement for the two years prior.

So, parents of EEA nationals are depending on the goodwill of the insurance provider.

Private insurers will mostly refuse to take on people above a certain age, etc.

A forum member was unable to get German health insurance for his adult sister. The German health insurance system has not been designed for adults who have never worked in Germany, are not eligible for benefits (or don't want to take them so they won't cease to be financially dependent on their family member/become a burden to the host state), not studying/getting a qualification, and are not eligible for family insurance (like spouses and minor children).

So, Germany may not be the best place to try for Surinder Singh for parents or extended family members.

One may well be lucky and everything goes smoothly but it also may not.

What will be the case in terms of Parent's health insurance, if somebody decides to make Germany as their home?
Also, as parents Never worked there, is it a big problem for finding rental place? [i.e. is there any people - number of room ration & council registration]

Thanks

It can be difficult to find an insurance provider who will be willing to voluntarily insure them at all. If you do find one, it will be expensive.

Usually, landlords go by 1 room per person in the household. German flats are counted by rooms (bedrooms plus reception rooms), not bedrooms, like in the UK. So if it's just you and your parents, you will need a 3-room flat (2 bedrooms).

There is a huge housing shortage in all German cities at the moment.

[mgb]

It can be difficult to find an insurance provider who will be willing to voluntarily insure them at all. If you do find one, it will be expensive.

If the parents are dependant article 2 section 2b of 2004/38 make them to family members in the sense of the directive.
Family members need no health insurance if the eu citizen is working or is self-employed. If the family members want a health insurance in such a case the statutory insurance in Germany has to take them because their stay is not limited. They can only deny if the right to stay is limited to 12 month or below.

[ALKB]

It can be difficult to find an insurance provider who will be willing to voluntarily insure them at all. If you do find one, it will be expensive.

If the parents are dependant article 2 section 2b of 2004/38 make them to family members in the sense of the directive.
Family members need no health insurance if the eu citizen is working or is self-employed. If the family members want a health insurance in such a case the statutory insurance in Germany has to take them because their stay is not limited. They can only deny if the right to stay is limited to 12 month or below.

Great news! Do you have a link for that?

I was going by this:

https://www.krankenkassen.de/meine-kran ... anmeldung/

[mgb]

SGB book5 §5 section 1 number 13 about the insurance obligation and section 11 about foreigners.
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_5/__5.html

[Bobthemoggie]

in the country of origin ( in Netherlands),

Just to clarify, the country of origin in this case is not the Netherlands, it is the country that your parents are resident in.

The letter seems to be asking your parents to prove not only that they were financially dependent on you, but that they were dependent on you for basic material support in the country of origin.

Jia underlined that the situation of dependency is established by referring to the necessity of material support in the State of origin of the applicant.

This Freemovement article interprets the Reyes judgment to mean that "all that need be shown is the fact of past remittances".

So, did your parents show a history of (ideally regular bank payment) remittances from you to them in their country of origin?

These rules are based on the judgments of the ECJ/CJEU and hence are likely to be required in all EEA countries.

Dear Expert Member,
I was not able to get Lawyer & need to handle case on my own.

Will it be a good idea, to give reference to - Reyes judgment to mean that "all that need be shown is the fact of past remittances".?

or leave it for later stages of appeal in the court?
As it will be really beneficial if I could satisfy case worker at this stage, by providing elaboration & references like above judgement.

Your any advise on how to respond will really helpful

Thanks a lot