Non-EU Spouse - Advice needed

[mexapp2012]

After having done some more reading, it seems like the most sensible option is for my girlfriend to obtain a marriage visitor's visa in order to marry in the UK in the future.

It would probably be refused. How are you going to persuade them of where you are going to live after the marriage?

Then, instead of upsetting the HO and applying for an RC from within the UK, I suppose she would have to apply for the EEA (FM) from outside the UK?

You mean family permit. Residence cards can only be applied for from within the UK.

Now I am aware this could take a long time and we may not have it when the time comes. So, my question is - would she need the EEA (FM) to re-enter the UK or would having me next to her and all the relevant documents (such as marriage certificate, etc.) be enough?

The latter should be enough (with one caveat) if you can get to the UK border.

The caveat is that I strongly suspect that you intend to marry her so that immigration laws will allow you to live together. Under the Home Office interpretation of EEA rules, that appears to make it a marriage of convenience! While that is not a problem under the Immigration Rules, they don't allow you to bring her to the UK until you acquire settled status.

I'm not sure if the law has changed/tightened since, but this is exactly what I had done 5+ years ago.

We were both living outside the UK for 2 years before my EEA partner moved back to the UK, and I applied from overseas for a UK Marriage Visitor visa to get married to her in the UK. We obviously understood the risk of this being refused, but took the chance because it was the shortest time frame for us to be able to live together again.
My wife secured a date for us to get married at the local town hall, and I applied for a marriage visitor visa using this information. I was granted a 3 month visa, which I used to initially visit the UK.
After we got married (6 weeks after I had flown to the UK, as that was the earliest date we had been able to secure at the town hall), EU law takes precedence over UK law, so I was then legally allowed to live and work in the UK, despite not having an EEA family member residence card. We did apply for this card promptly after we got married, and I was indeed granted my 5 year residence card within 2 months of applying.
I have recently applied and been granted permanent residency that was deemed to have been acquired 5 years on from the date we got married in the UK.

All this to say that what we did was completely transparent and legal, even though there was an element of risk involved in the very first step.
We didn't do this completely independently of course - we had sought advice over email and skype from an immigration expert who explained that this would be the best course of action (and so it proved).
We did take precautions to prove that our reason to get married was legitimate (proof of having lived together abroad for 2 years, etc.), and it seems that the Original Poster's case is just as legitimate, so while still a risk, it would be a calculated one.

[VIETY]

I was in exactly the same situation last year so this is what we did.

- First I applied for an UK Marriage Visa from Vietnam, which is valid for 6 months. As long as you have evidence proving your relationship, it should be fine. I would strongly suggest you to make a reservation for your marriage at the local council and include that reservation/booking for wedding and restaurant booking for a wedding party in your application. All of these help prove your intention for a real marriage. We made a booking for a wedding lunch at the Shard which then can be cancelled.

- After having the wedding certificate, we flew out of the UK to another European country and apply for an UK Family Permit there.

- We returned to the UK with the Family Permit and use that to open bank accounts, obtain other paper work and then applied for a Residence Card as a Direct FM of an European national.

A note: you have to be careful about your plan to return to the UK without a Family Permit. As your wife is Vietnamese, which is a visa national country, I am afraid she will not be even allowed to board the flight. There are other cases in this forum where people can return to the UK without a family permit, but I understand that in most cases, the person is from a non-visa country so they can board the plane without problem. I personally would not risk.

Another option is like mexapp2012 did, applying directly for the Residence Card inside the UK after the marriage. However, back then I didn't gather enough proof that we were living together so I thought it would be better if we have the Family Permit then used it to open joint bank account, etc...

Good luck.

[Richard W]

A note: you have to be careful about your plan to return to the UK without a Family Permit. As your wife is Vietnamese, which is a visa national country, I am afraid she will not be even allowed to board the flight.

Which is why I suggested returning from Denmark by train!

[Xter27]

Dear all, thank you for your kind replies. I certainly did not expect to receive so much insightful information, so a very big thank you for that.

At first, I thought that the suggestion to marry in Denmark was just a random one, but after doing some research it appears that Denmark offers one of the simplest and quickest marriage processes in the whole EU. Therefore, I understand why Denmark has been mentioned as a country for marriage purposes!

I think the most appealing scenario for us would be to marry in Denmark and then travel to the UK together. However, my biggest worry in this situation would be about my then wife being admitted into the UK without a family permit (FP).

I have found this http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... on/11/made where according to my interpretation it states that as long as we can provide proof that the non-eea family member has a right to join me in the UK (without FP/RC), everything should be OK.

Question - why would it be possible to enter the UK by train, but not by a plane without RC/FP?

I have also thought about the marriage visitor's visa route, but can't risk potentially not meeting the good character requirement in the future (for naturalisation purposes). On the other hand, I would not mind having to apply for the family permit from Lithuania, but I hear it can take a long time and I could not leave my girlfriend there for long due to current commitments in the UK. However, we might reconsider this route if we need to.

- After having the wedding certificate, we flew out of the UK to another European country and apply for an UK Family Permit there.

VIETY, thank you for your reply. May I ask how long did it take until you received the permit?

Question - once married and in the UK without the FP, as far as I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), in order to obtain RC we would need proof of living together and basically sharing our lives with each other. One of these could be a joint bank account, but will she be able to open one with me without the FP? Having said that, she does have NI and a personal bank account already, since she has lived in the UK for 6 years in the past. This might help.

Apologies for a long post and once again, a big thank you for all your help!

[Richard W]

I have found this http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... on/11/made where according to my interpretation it states that as long as we can provide proof that the non-eea family member has a right to join me in the UK (without FP/RC), everything should be OK.

Question - why would it be possible to enter the UK by train, but not by a plane without RC/FP?

That regulation, or rather its replacement in the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2016, only takes effect for dealings with Immigration. If an aeroplane brings someone to the UK without the 'required' documents, the airline operator is liable to a £2,000 fine. Just having a right of entry is not good enough. It's not UKVI that denies entry; it's the airline that refuses boarding. UKVI claims that bringing in a visa national on the strength of being a family member leaves the airline open to a fine.

I believe that in general ferries are subject to the same scheme, but it seems not to apply within the Common Travel Area. Ireland is also protected by the sea, so access that way is not easy.

However, the UK border is exposed by the juxtaposed border controls in France and Belgium, especially for Eurostar. The result is that for immigration purposes one can walk up to the British border from France and Belgium.

These restrictions only apply to visa nationals. Non-visa nationals can fly to the UK and then claim their rights under that regulation.

Question - once married and in the UK without the FP, as far as I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), in order to obtain RC we would need proof of living together and basically sharing our lives with each other. One of these could be a joint bank account, but will she be able to open one with me without the FP? Having said that, she does have NI and a personal bank account already, since she has lived in the UK for 6 years in the past. This might help.

In principle this is unnecessary. A married couple may even live apart in the same country (the Diatta judgement), and you may well know genuine couples who voluntarily live apart. Where such evidence comes into play is in countering the accusation that the marriage is one of convenience. A marriage certificate and evidence that you are in work ought to be enough for a residence card.

[VIETY]

Question - once married and in the UK without the FP, as far as I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), in order to obtain RC we would need proof of living together and basically sharing our lives with each other. One of these could be a joint bank account, but will she be able to open one with me without the FP? Having said that, she does have NI and a personal bank account already, since she has lived in the UK for 6 years in the past. This might help.

This is a complete list of documents that we sent for my RC. Hope it helps

1. Proof of my husband’s identity and status in the UK

- His ID card and a certified copied of his European passport
- His Document Certifying Permanent Residence in the UK
- Letter from his company confirming his employment
- His pay slips for the last 16 months from March 2016 till June 2017
- His recent bank statements from November 2016 till June 2017

2. Proof of our spousal relationship

- Our original marriage certificate
- Photos of our wedding day in London and photos that we took together at different occasions in different parts of the world.
- Extracts from our chat log history at different period
- Flight tickets, boarding passes for travels we made together or to see each other.

3. Proof of living together at the same address

- Council tax bills under both our names
- Bank joint account statements under both of our names
- Electricity and Gas account under both of our names
- Tenancy contract under my husband’s name
- Water bill under my husband’s name
- Barclays Bank Account statement under my name
- Letter from HM Revenue & Custom sent to me
- Letter from NHS/GP sent to me

To answer your other questions

- It took me only 2 weeks to get my FP applying from Rome. But I have seen on this forum that it took much longer for other people applying from other places, so be realistic. One option is you can come back and work in London while your wife is waiting for FP in Lithuania. With a valid FP, she can easily enter UK without you (That what we did)

- Again, I would advise you to think twice about your plan to get married outside the UK and try to get to the UK without a FP. First of all, you might risk being denied boarding on a plane or ferry/train/bus; or you might be denied entry at an UK border checkpoint.
Secondly once your wife is in the UK, without a FP, it is almost impossible for her to get a job. Or at least she needs to wait till she receives a COA.

I was in the exact situation last year (I am from Vietnam too btw), so I decided to take the safe way and did everything step by step.

Last advice, please do take time to gather documents before applying for RC.

Good luck!

[Xter27]

I have found this http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... on/11/made where according to my interpretation it states that as long as we can provide proof that the non-eea family member has a right to join me in the UK (without FP/RC), everything should be OK.

Question - why would it be possible to enter the UK by train, but not by a plane without RC/FP?

That regulation, or rather its replacement in the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2016, only takes effect for dealings with Immigration. If an aeroplane brings someone to the UK without the 'required' documents, the airline operator is liable to a £2,000 fine. Just having a right of entry is not good enough. It's not UKVI that denies entry; it's the airline that refuses boarding. UKVI claims that bringing in a visa national on the strength of being a family member leaves the airline open to a fine.

Thank you so much for the information, Richard W. It helps a lot!

- It took me only 2 weeks to get my FP applying from Rome. But I have seen on this forum that it took much longer for other people applying from other places, so be realistic. One option is you can come back and work in London while your wife is waiting for FP in Lithuania. With a valid FP, she can easily enter UK without you (That what we did)

- Again, I would advise you to think twice about your plan to get married outside the UK and try to get to the UK without a FP. First of all, you might risk being denied boarding on a plane or ferry/train/bus; or you might be denied entry at an UK border checkpoint.
Secondly once your wife is in the UK, without a FP, it is almost impossible for her to get a job. Or at least she needs to wait till she receives a COA.

Thank you so much for your kind comments and time spent on sharing your experiences. This has helped immensely and I am now convinced that the family permit route from outside the UK is the safest option in terms of risk, stress and everything else. I will keep this post updated with the story and hope it turns out to be a successful one!

P.S I'd happily live in Vietnam for a few years if only I was a tad younger Beautiful place!

[YVIET]

2. Proof of our spousal relationship

- Our original marriage certificate
- Photos of our wedding day in London and photos that we took together at different occasions in different parts of the world.
- Extracts from our chat log history at different period
- Flight tickets, boarding passes for travels we made together or to see each other.

Hi VIETY,

I am Vietnamese going to apply for RC in June, your post about list of documents is very useful for me, thank for that.
Could you please advise me about the Photoes and Flight tickets, boarding passes ..., I should submit by copy of A4 size or original one?

Thank you very much.