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Help please- visitor visa for siblings declined

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MouseyOne
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Help please- visitor visa for siblings declined

Post by MouseyOne » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:55 pm

I think I've just about had enough of all this Visa business. We are treated like rubbish. After all, we pay taxes, are law abiding, speak the lingo and do as much as we can, you know what they say - when in rome . . .

I have just been told that my sliblings had their visit visas declined. They are under 14 and have been here before on their own on two separate occassions. They never over stayed, they are just kids. And now their holiday has just been ruined because some idiot decided not to read all the information submitted even though this was well arranged and clear so as not to cause confusion.

The reasons are because they don't believe they meet the conditions on paragraph 41 to 46B of the Immigration laws. They are under 14 and half the stuff on there doesn't apply to them. We always provide all our bank statements, mortagage statements, payslips, other income, school letters, fully paid air tickets and more. They still said NO and sent a standard paste and copy letter and concluded to say if they have previous applications, those would have been taken into consideration. Clearly they haven't.

I'm boiling, I could BURST!!!!!!!! I would like your advice, all of you, anyone . . . ...... I was thinking I would have their appeal and applications sent to me and send them from here. I once did an appeal for my mum and the advice I got from here was to arrange evidence for each point the refusal is based on, and colour code if possible so everything is laid in front of them. I can do this but any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
They have even failed to take into account that my mother has been here twice too and gone back without overstaying, just like my siblings. I'm just upset because they were really looking fwd to it and besides what's the point of staying here if you can't see your relatives, I'd rather take my skills elsewhere :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: .
Last edited by MouseyOne on Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gollywood
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Post by gollywood » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:38 am

Know how you feel - it seems as though everything is geared to helping those that arrive, overstay and then miraculously appear 10 years later saying 'sorry' and how can I stay?

I would appeal - clearly itemise each point of refusal - and show the ******* in great detail using previoulsy submitted docs / new docs how they simply didnt read ANY of the papaer work.

Heres how I got through it...

http://www.immigrationboards.com/search ... 9&start=80

sunny9675
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Post by sunny9675 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:40 am

this is alost routine stroy for them

it is money drinking business from ec

sunny9675
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Post by sunny9675 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:41 am

they find we got deep pocket
if they suck £500 -1000 will not make us poor

vinny
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Re: Really Upset with this Country (England)

Post by vinny » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:29 am

MouseyOne wrote:The reasons are because they don't believe they meet the conditions on paragraph 41 to 46B of the Immigration laws. They are under 14 and half the stuff on there doesn't apply to them. We always provide all our bank statements, mortagage statements, payslips, other income, school letters, fully paid air tickets and more. They still said NO and sent a standard paste and copy letter and concluded to say if they have previous applications, those would have been taken into consideration. Clearly they haven't.
Did they specify which particular sections that were apparently not met?
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MouseyOne
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update

Post by MouseyOne » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:31 pm

Hi sorry I haven't replied for a while but I thought I should until I get the actual letters from the Embassy. Well first of all, although the application was lodged in Zimbabwe, for some reason it was sent to Pretoria, so it took about 7 days to come back.

2 of my siblings have been here before to visit (twice), but I couldn't have the other because he was too little to subject him to an 8 hr flight so now that he is 8 it's ok. They are between 8 - 14 yrs old.

I wanted them to come for April but obviously, that's history, so I was thinking about having them over for August school holidays which is when they are next off school.

THE REFUSAL
The evidence that the Entry Clearance office has taken into account
In order to reach a decision, I have taken into account:
That the burden of proof is on you, the applicant
The standard of proof is to a balance of probabilities
Your completed application form
Your passport and the original documents you provided

Rate of Exchange £1 = zim $ 75 million [not sure why he is stating this to a 10 yr old!]

Next page says he has assessed the application based on paragraph 46A of the immigration rules which say I must be satisfied that you:
i. meet the requirements of 41i - vii and
ii. are under the age of 18 and
iii. can demonstrate that suitable arrangements have been made for your travel to and reception and care in the UK and
iv. have a parent or guardian in your home country of habitual residence who is responsible for your care and
v. if a visa national, a) hold a valid UK entry clearance for entry as an accompanied child visitor and are travelling in the company of the adult identified on your entry clearance, who is in the same occasion being admitted to the UK or b) hold a valid UK entry clearance for entry as an unaccompanied child visitor

Entry clearance officer's decision
I have refused your visa application on this occassion because I am not satisfied , on the balance of probabilities, that you meet the requirements of paragraph 41 - 46 A of the Immigration Rules. This deision was made on the merits of this application. However if you have a previous application and immigration history, this may have been considered.

There is another letter - one page, I have run out of steam and can't type anymore. But is says it's the Clearance officer's reasons and supporting evidence. They waffle about immigration rules for 2 paragraphs with nothing of substance being stated here. Then paragraph three says that he doesn't think we can afford to have them over for 25 days because my bank balance shows £2000 ish. It also says the other statement submitted shows the owner uses the money for their commitments [I have no commitment coming from that account apart from rent, and I receive my business salary in there, as well as rental income - so I'm not sure what they mean]. He then goes on to say given the financial constraints he is not satisfied they will be maintained and the cost of the return journey met as required by paragraph 41 vi and vii. [this by the way was only £300 for all of them via Air Zimbabwe at the time, and iteneraries attached].

He then says, you state your hosts are in employment, but you have not stated who will be caring for you when you are there, so do no meet 46A iii. [unbelievable - so would we leave the kids alone?]

He also notes that they have previsously travelled to the UK, however each application is assessed using the information provided at the time etc.

He also states that the application coincides with severe economic problems in Zimbabwe etc he is not satisfied she intends to leave and the end of her proposed stay but is satisfied she meets all the other requirements of paragraph 41 of HC 395.

Now, to say I am shocked is an understatement. But Ok, I admit there are a few things I over-looked. I was intending to use Air Zim for a cheap 100 quid per child why pay BA £700 per child? Air Zim would not allow me to pay for the tickets before visa is issued. In the past I have purchased tickets with British airways and paid for their fly solo service prooving that the kids would be looked after throughout their journey and handed over by guardians /relatives etc at airports. Also I guess paying for tickets upfront shows that they can afford the cost of the journey. I am not sure that it costs that much to have 3 kids over for just unde 4 weeks - food etc!

I do have other bank accounts showing my other earnings, which I did not add as I thought my business account would be sufficient as it also has rental income from one of our properties apart from income from my online business. My other account shows rental income from our other house and income from my part - time job as a nurse with the NHS [this is bank* position and go when I want rather than daily since I'm a full time student]. Being a student means I'm off over school holidays and can watch the kids etc - the clearance officer knows this.


Now, how do you suggest I tackle this because I do not want to poo - poo it. I would like to have a lovely summer please so any help would be great. I have copied and pasted the paragraphs in question and was thinking of doing the same in the appeal and answering each one line by line providing evidence. Does 46A(v) apply, I'm not sure I'm following because a) they are not being accompanied b) Isn't the Entry clearance what they are applying for? Also, another question - for the appeal, I expect the kids should sign the appeal forms right? My Dad signed the application forms on their behalf, should we be signing the appeal forms for them? Also - the deadline for appealing, do they take in to account when the passports were sent back by their courier or do they just base it on when they declined?

41. The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a visitor are that he:

(i) is genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated by him, not exceeding 6 months; and

(ii) intends to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit as stated by him; and

(iii) does not intend to take employment in the United Kingdom; and

(iv) does not intend to produce goods or provide services within the United Kingdom, including the selling of goods or services direct to members of the public; and

(v) does not intend to undertake a course of study; and

(vi) will maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately out of resources available to him without recourse to public funds or taking employment; or will, with any dependants, be maintained and accommodated adequately by relatives or friends; and

(vii) can meet the cost of the return or onward journey

46A The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a child visitor are that he:

(i) meets the requirements of paragraph 41 (i)-(iv) and (vi)-(vii);

(ii) is under the age of 18; and

(iii) can demonstrate that suitable arrangements have been made for his travel to, and reception and care in the United Kingdom; and

(iv) has a parent or guardian in his home country or country of habitual residence who is responsible for his care; and

(v) if a visa national:

(a) holds a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry as an accompanied child visitor and is travelling in the company of the adult identified on his entry clearance, who is on the same occasion being admitted to the United Kingdom; or

(b) holds a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry as an unaccompanied child visitor;

MouseyOne
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Post by MouseyOne » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:48 pm

If you guys can read this it will be great, I know it's a bit lengthy :)
Just some additional information - they even made up a last name for all my siblings, it is not even their last name or anything - just to show that they were not concentrating when making these decisions.

gollywood
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Post by gollywood » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:37 am

MouseyOne wrote:If you guys can read this it will be great, I know it's a bit lengthy :)
Just some additional information - they even made up a last name for all my siblings, it is not even their last name or anything - just to show that they were not concentrating when making these decisions.
APPEAL.

And them blopw the HO out of the ground. If you can go through the refusal world for word and highlight every inaccuracy / every mistake / every incorrect assumption / any misreading of your application & your circumstances - POUNCE on it and in your appeal, you make sure that the judge is totally aware that the HO failed to read your application!

And with the HO on the back foot - you just go through your documentations - your bank statements / earnings / accomodation - until the judge will basically ask the HO - Why thell did you reject this application'

AIT judges are so fair - you'll get your day in court, and put HO in their place.

HO deliberatley fail these applications - knowing that not everyone can or will appeal!

Good luck!

MouseyOne
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Post by MouseyOne » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:53 am

Thanks, I'm only just going to bed now just finished typing the letter, getting all documents together and will be putting everything is order tomorrow. Does anyone know if we make the Kids sign or just the parent on their behalf?

Also with regards to the appeal date, what date do you put? Do you put the date that you collected the decision from the courier? Just checking because this is not the same date as they put on another form.

MouseyOne
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Update

Post by MouseyOne » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:41 am

Hi guys,
I haven't heard any good news yet, however I sent the appeal off with all fingers and toes crossed. I sent it to the UK office and they said they have sent it to South Africa for reconsideration.
They have about a month to get back to the AIT to tell them that they will issue the visas or the appeal should go to court.

I'm really nervous about it all because I am looking fwd to them coming and the last thing I want is some tribunal or court stress. What I need to know is what happens in court? They said we would be notified of a date if it does happen and we opted to be present. Would they ask us anything, would we need a solicitor more documents or would they just work with what we have already given and would just go there and watch??

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Re: Update

Post by Plum70 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:25 am

MouseyOne wrote:Hi guys,
I haven't heard any good news yet, however I sent the appeal off with all fingers and toes crossed. I sent it to the UK office and they said they have sent it to South Africa for reconsideration.
They have about a month to get back to the AIT to tell them that they will issue the visas or the appeal should go to court.

I'm really nervous about it all because I am looking fwd to them coming and the last thing I want is some tribunal or court stress. What I need to know is what happens in court? They said we would be notified of a date if it does happen and we opted to be present. Would they ask us anything, would we need a solicitor more documents or would they just work with what we have already given and would just go there and watch??
I was in a similar position some months ago, only it was my mother who was refused a family visit visa for my wedding. As a result I got married without her being there to witness it.
Anyway we appealed, and my husband and I went to AIT for the hearing. We took previously submitted evidence and fresh ones (if your case requires a hearing at AIT you would be advised by letter to submit new evidence prior to the date). Ours was a straight-forward case: The ECO had not considered all the valid docs submitted with the application, made unfounded assumptions, one of them being that he did not believe my mother would return home after her 1 week trip because she had never been to the UK before (isn't there always a 1st time for everything?). From the start of the hearing the judge admitted that the refusal was a premature one, the HO rep could not defend the ECO's decision either (even admitted that all our docs added up). As a last resort she turned to me and my immigration history but that was a dead end as it's as clean as a whistle. So, after 15 minutes of talk the appeal was of course allowed.
You will be asked some questions by the judge but nothing out of the ordinary as they are aware you are not a solicitor. The HO rep may also pose some questions (to try to defend the ECO's decision of course).

I'll say: On the day be prepared, organized, professional but not intimidated. Good luck and I hope the kiddies get to enjoy their long awaited hols soon.

MouseyOne
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Update

Post by MouseyOne » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:16 pm

So finally we've heard from the embassy and they have not reconsidered, so they have sent the documents to the UK for the hearing. I called today and they refused to give me any details, apparently rules changed last week and since I'm a sponsor they can't discuss anything with me. Which is crazy considering I applied for the kids and did the appeal and would be the one attending the hearing etc

What i even more shocking is how they have ALL our documents, bank statements, mortgage, insurance, other assets, ID copies, everything about us and we're not allowed to know what's happening unless a parent writes to them - new rules.

I was wondering if it's wise to get a solicitor or would we be wasting money? I thought this would be very simple and they would be granted the visas after the appeal but the embassy obviously thinks otherwise. I wonder if they really looked at what we sent, since their deadline was like a month ago and it's taken them till now to decide, they kept saying they had too much work to do and so on. Do you think there is a chance they missed something, unless they are purely declining on the basis of the situation in Zimbabwe because I think financially we are fine.

Apparently I cannot defend anything by going to the tribunal, so I was asking why we have to go? Either way we'll go and see what they are saying but if we can only speak when they ask questions how can we defend or influence the decision they will make in the end?
Plus does anyone know how long it takes after the hearing to hear from them? Will I need to take anything with us, like new evidence? What will they ask? Will it be in court or just a room? How many people are there?
AIT said only a legal representative can defend our case.

I want to make plans for christmas and this is holding me back. Advice please.

MouseyOne
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Post by MouseyOne » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:01 pm

Can anyone please respond? We have been given a hearing date, what do I take with us? Should I get a legal representative because apparently we can't defend anything unless we have a legal representative.

MouseyOne
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Post by MouseyOne » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:26 pm

Anyone?

PaperPusher
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Post by PaperPusher » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:24 pm

Why do you think you cannot go?

If you have a look at the AIT website, you will see that alot of sponsors go the tribunal and do get the chance to say something.

See the following case as an example:

http://www.ait.gov.uk/Public/Unreported/VA256872008.doc

Did your siblings apply as family visitors?

Your siblings do not need to have a representative to get their appeal heard.

Regards

MouseyOne
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Post by MouseyOne » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:01 pm

Hi, yes they applied as family visitors. I had this solicitor I alled yesterday and I think he was trying to scare me into using him (£2K)! Anyway, we've decided to go alone because the person from the AIT had misinformed us, you are right in that we get to say something if we wish.
I hope it all works out and will update with good news I hope.

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