Am I a citizen by descent? please help!

[dave21683]

Congratulations on your new passport. Make sure you keep careful records of your citizenship status (incl expired passports) so you don't have problems in future.

Do you want to pass your British citizenship onto any non-U.K. born children you may have in future?

Would I be likely to have to produce all the documents again for something? Most of them were my mothers and I have sent them back to NZ, but i have kept photocopies of everything.

I will try to pass on my citizenship, if only to offer my kids the benefits that come with a passport. I understand if they are born outside the UK i must register them within a year of their birth?

[JAJ]

Would I be likely to have to produce all the documents again for something? Most of them were my mothers and I have sent them back to NZ, but i have kept photocopies of everything.

Not unless your passport is lost. Straightforward renewals normally don't need documentation to be provided again.

I will try to pass on my citizenship, if only to offer my kids the benefits that come with a passport. I understand if they are born outside the UK i must register them within a year of their birth?

Correct, also you must have a continuous 3 year period of U.K. residence (before child is born) and the child must have a British otherwise than by descent grandparent (your mother).

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ornabroad/

This is under section 3(2) of the British Nationality Act.

There are other ways, eg if you brought children to live in the U.K. but most people by all accounts go for the s3(2) registration option as soon as the child is born.

[toaster]

I was born in 1980. To a mother that was born in (southern) Ireland to British parents (they were working over there roughly from when she was born til when she was 10). She has a UK passport, and her parents are both UK citizens (from a looooong line of other UK citizens).

As my mother gained her UK citizenship by descent, is this why I am not able to apply to be a UK citizen? And does that fall under the second or third requirement (just out of curiosity).

You're ruled out by the second requirement. Had your mother been able to pass on her British nationality on the same basis as men could, you still would not have been a CUKC at birth, assuming you were born in Australia and not a protectorate, or something.

Out of interest, when was your mother born?

And any chance that your parents were in Crown Service when you were born?

If you lived in the U.K. as a minor you could have been registered as a British citizen, but if that didn't take place that option is closed now.

My mother was born in 1952. And no, my parents weren't in the Crown Service when I was born.

And though I did stay in the UK for periods totalling about six months when I was minor, as I wasn't registered as a citizen I suppose that's irrelevant.

Did your mum move back to the UK at any point between age 10 and your birth?

Yes, when she was aged 10 to 25 or so, she was living in the UK. She then went to Australia on a working holiday, met my father, and had me.

(sorry about the late response, I forgot I'd actually posted the question)

[JAJ]

My mother was born in 1952. And no, my parents weren't in the Crown Service when I was born.

I see no basis for you to claim British citizenship by descent. However, I presume you're aware that you can use your Irish passport to move to the U.K. as a permanent resident and become naturalised British (otherwise than by descent) in due course.

Have you got any children of your own?

[toaster]

My mother was born in 1952. And no, my parents weren't in the Crown Service when I was born.

I see no basis for you to claim British citizenship by descent. However, I presume you're aware that you can use your Irish passport to move to the U.K. as a permanent resident and become naturalised British (otherwise than by descent) in due course.

Have you got any children of your own?

Hi JAJ. I have no children of my own.

(And wacky citizenship laws, I'm Irish just because my mother was born there, but not British, despite all the generations of my mothers family as far back as we can track living somewhere between London, Colchester and Chelmsford)

[JAJ]

Hi JAJ. I have no children of my own.

(And wacky citizenship laws, I'm Irish just because my mother was born there, but not British, despite all the generations of my mothers family as far back as we can track living somewhere between London, Colchester and Chelmsford)

British nationality cuts off (as a general rule) after the first generation born overseas. The thinking is that expatriate Britons should be encouraged to "throw their lot in" with their new country, and the view of successive British governments (since 1915) that the second and subsequent generation born overseas tend to identify more with their country of birth than with the United Kingdom.

Consider the fact you have Irish citizenship as a bonus. Had your mother been born most other places (eg Denmark) then you would not have that country's citizenship.

Be aware that if you have children of your own, they can be registered as Irish citizens by descent, under current laws at least.

Also be aware that if you have children born in the U.K. - again under current laws - the children would be British citizens by birth (because you would be a "permanent resident").

[Richard66]

Just one question about citizens by descent or otherwise than by descent:

Father born in the UK in 1921. WWII Veteran, emigrated to Brazil in 1949 and there met and married an American.

5 Children born in Brazil: 1951, 1953, 1954, 1956 and 1966.

These children all have been registered at the respective British Consulate and hold British passports, but have never actually lived in the UK.

Are they British citizens otherwise than by decent and their children will be British citizens by descent or are they themselves British citizens by decent and will not be able to pass their nationality to their children?

[JAJ]

Just one question about citizens by descent or otherwise than by descent:

Father born in the UK in 1921. WWII Veteran, emigrated to Brazil in 1949 and there met and married an American.

5 Children born in Brazil: 1951, 1953, 1954, 1956 and 1966.

These children all have been registered at the respective British Consulate and hold British passports, but have never actually lived in the UK.

Are they British citizens otherwise than by decent and their children will be British citizens by descent or are they themselves British citizens by decent and will not be able to pass their nationality to their children?

British by descent, unless parent was in Crown Service.

Bear in mind that there are some circumstances in which the overseas born child of a British citizen by descent may be registered as a British citizen.

[Richard66]

I was afraid of this. What happens then if one of these children now lives in a country that does not grant automatically citizenship to children born there and these children's children risk therefore becoming stateless?

[JAJ]

I was afraid of this. What happens then if one of these children now lives in a country that does not grant automatically citizenship to children born there and these children's children risk therefore becoming stateless?

If children are genuinely stateless then they can be registered as British citizens under section 3(2) of the Act provided that:

- the child has a British born or naturalised grandparent; (in other words, this is for second generation only); and
- application is made before child is 12 months old

Details in Chapter 10 of the Nationality Instructions.
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/policy ... s1/nivol1/

[Richard66]

Thanks for this!

The catch is that in this case the father is a UK cizien by descent, the mother is Russian and they live in Italy and each of these countries make the same provviso: that the child can be registered as its citizen provided the child would otherwise become stateless, so, in the end, each country will say, "well, no, we will not register it because the child may become a citizen of either of the other two."

[JAJ]

Thanks for this!

The catch is that in this case the father is a UK cizien by descent, the mother is Russian and they live in Italy and each of these countries make the same provviso: that the child can be registered as its citizen provided the child would otherwise become stateless, so, in the end, each country will say, "well, no, we will not register it because the child may become a citizen of either of the other two."

The U.K. can't say that. As long as the child is not legally a citizen of Russia or Italy (I don't believe entitlement to citizenship counts) then child would be legally stateless and hence entitled to registration.

The Act refers only to statelessness and unlike some countries, does not rule out cases where there is an entitlement to citizenship of some other country (provided such entitlement requires formal registration is not exercised).

Are you sure they won't be American? Have you ever lived in the United States?

From what I can tell, Brazilian citizenship by descent requires registration formalities but that would need to be confirmed.

[Richard66]

So, what you are saying is that the child would only need to be registered at the UK consulate. This is good. The idea of being British, American and Brazilian, with a Russian wife and an Italian child doesn't really appeal to me! (and this registration is also conditional). At least let two of us have the same citizenship! As it is I might need to naturalise myself Italian, so that my wife can cease being a second-class citizen, but I can only do that in 4 years' time and then she'll need to apply herself as the wife of an Italian.

Now, imagine the hassle if we were then to move to, say, Denmark, next year!

You remember me, JAJ! Yes, they can be American, but only naturalised (and not straight registration) through my mother, as long as I can prove she lived in the US for a period, which I might be able to do, if I manage to get hold of any of her old documents.

The Brazilians allow for a "provisional" registration, which must be confirmed before the age of 18 by registering again in Brazil. Since we shall not be going there (we would need to register our marriage too, which involves my wife needing to apply for documents in Russia) if we can possibly help it.

And quite frankly, what interest is it to have Brazilian or Russian citizenship in the EU?

I imagine that if these children were born in the UK that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

[JAJ]

So, what you are saying is that the child would only need to be registered at the UK consulate. This is good.

The registration would be submitted at the British consulate, but would be decided by the Home Office in Liverpool.

You would need to show evidence that the child was not a citizen of any of the other potential countries. From the Nationality Instructions, they look for:

... if the child was born stateless:

i. a letter from the authorities of the country of the child's birth confirming that the minor did not acquire that country's citizenship or nationality at birth;
and, if the other parent is neither a British citizen nor a national of the country of the child's birth,
ii. a letter from the authorities of the country of which the other parent is a citizen confirming that the minor did not acquire that country's citizenship or nationality at birth.

NB. It is, of course, for us to determine whether or not the child has any claim to any form of British nationality.

In the real world not every country will issue such a "letter" so you might need some alternative information, such as extracts from the relevant country's citizenship legislation, a letter from a competent lawyer in that country, printouts from the country's websites etc.

The idea of being British, American and Brazilian, with a Russian wife and an Italian child doesn't really appeal to me! (and this registration is also conditional). At least let two of us have the same citizenship! As it is I might need to naturalise myself Italian, so that my wife can cease being a second-class citizen, but I can only do that in 4 years' time and then she'll need to apply herself as the wife of an Italian.

If you become Italian then any future children you have will be Italian too.

You remember me, JAJ! Yes, they can be American, but only naturalised (and not straight registration) through my mother, as long as I can prove she lived in the US for a period, which I might be able to do, if I manage to get hold of any of her old documents.

Is it correct that you have never lived in the United States yourself?

The other way is to sponsor your children for an Immigrant Visa. they automatically then become U.S. citizens on admission to the United States while still under 18 (as far as I can tell, nothing stops them leaving again once they have their proof of citizenship).

I imagine that if these children were born in the UK that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

Yes, it would.

[Richard66]

What a mess!

You are right, I've never even been to the US, let alone lived there! My brother does, however, but that's another story.

You are right part of the way about my becoming Italian: any children will be Italian, if they are born after: it's not retroactive.

I'm very grateful for this information. I believe it can be done, as the Russians would only recognise a child's Russian citizenship if both of us were Russians.

The same for the Italians.

The only problem I can see is that in my passport my city of birth is registered, though this does not automatically mean I hold Brazilian citizenship. Maybe I'll need to renounce it? After all, it's really of little use: all duties and no rights.

[JAJ]

What a mess!

You are right, I've never even been to the US, let alone lived there!

It wouldn't stop you using the Immigrant Visa route to get citizenship for them (this has only been available since 2001).

The expedited naturalization route (based on an American grandparent) is the alternative, it's been around since 1995.

You are right part of the way about my becoming Italian: any children will be Italian, if they are born after: it's not retroactive.

I had thought that Italy only requires one parent to be Italian - you should investigate this further.

The only problem I can see is that in my passport my city of birth is registered, though this does not automatically mean I hold Brazilian citizenship. Maybe I'll need to renounce it? After all, it's really of little use: all duties and no rights.

If you were born in Brazil then you're Brazilian, unless a child of diplomats. However, I wouldn't be so quick to renounce Brazilian citizenship - as a nation it may do very well in the coming energy shortage.

As far as I can tell, Brazilian citizenship is not automatically acquired by those born overseas. It needs to be registered, which is apparently a formality, but one is not Brazilian until that happens. Incidentally, Australian law is similar in this respect.

http://www.helplinelaw.com/law/brazil/c ... enship.php

There is military service in Brazil, although there may well be legal ways to avoid it (eg by living overseas). It is also compulsory for dual Brazil/other nationals to enter and leave Brazil on a Brazilian passport.

If you are going to teach your future children Portuguese then Brazilian citizenship may be well worth having for them.

However, if you are planning to register them as British citizens under section 3(2) of the 1981 Act, you should only get them Brazilian or American citizenship after their registration as British has been completed.

[Richard66]

I had thought that Italy only requires one parent to be Italian - you should investigate this further.

What I should have said is, that if any child is born before either my wife or I becomes Italian, it will not be entitled to Italian citizenship. It must be born after naturalisation.

If you were born in Brazil then you're Brazilian, unless a child of diplomats. However, I wouldn't be so quick to renounce Brazilian citizenship - as a nation it may do very well in the coming energy shortage.

There two jokes they tell in Brazil:

Brazil: the country of the future! (Always was, probably will always be)

Brazil is a sleeping giant! Let's walk quietly so we don't wake it up.

Brazilian citizenship needs to be registered at a consulate and then confirmed after the age of 18 in Brazil. Otherwise it just expires. The catch is, the child is there at 18 and gets nabbed for compulsory military service and needs to register as a voter. Voting in Brazil is mandatory and there are penalties for not voting, which may include not being able to renew the passport. It's best to avoid that. I'm currently registered in Paris, so I only need to vote for President and, since I'm in Italy, I need to justify my absence.

I think any child of ours will have enough of learning English Russian and Italian! We'll leave Portuguese out!

Thanks so much for this information. It does make me breathe a little more freely.

[Christophe]

However, if you are planning to register them as British citizens under section 3(2) of the 1981 Act, you should only get them Brazilian or American citizenship after their registration as British has been completed.

Why is that — can I ask? (Just for my own education, really.)

[JAJ]

However, if you are planning to register them as British citizens under section 3(2) of the 1981 Act, you should only get them Brazilian or American citizenship after their registration as British has been completed.

Why is that — can I ask? (Just for my own education, really.)

Because in order for the 3 year parental (U.K.) residence rule to be waived (for section 3(2) registration), child must not be a citizen of any other country.

[Christophe]

However, if you are planning to register them as British citizens under section 3(2) of the 1981 Act, you should only get them Brazilian or American citizenship after their registration as British has been completed.

Why is that — can I ask? (Just for my own education, really.)

Because in order for the 3 year parental (U.K.) residence rule to be waived (for section 3(2) registration), child must not be a citizen of any other country.

Ah, yes. OK, thank you!