tee

[JhonnyECU]

asdf

[f2k]

sorry about your rejection. can you be more specific though about what points you did or did not get.
another there is nothing Obvious when it comes to HO, the onus is you to prove that you have that level of experience / education

[JhonnyECU]

vdsv

[JhonnyECU]

50 views so far and no replies. Looks like there are more people with the same question and lesser people with answers!!

Could any of you experienced guys please reply and help us out!!!

Hi SENIOR members....

I have less than 24 days to appeal this decision. could ANY one give me some hints, tips, answers, web links, recommendations, suggestions, etc!?


Thanks,

Jhonny

[lynn132]

Well, since no one eslse has really stepped up, I'll take a shot. It's my understanding that you can only appeal using the documentation you included with the original application, providing explanations, etc, for why you think their decision was wrong based on what they were given in the application. So I think it might be better for you, given what you have said about additional documents you didn't have to include in the original application, if you reapply with a new aaplication and all the documents you say you have now but didn't have then. It will cost you an additional application fee, but it has more chance of success IMHO from what you've said on the dorum about your application.

[JhonnyECU]

fg

[lynn132]

There really is no good answer for how long various types of appeals take to process. There is a spreadsheet posted on this forum with up to date data that show applicants, processing times, etc.and the data page has raw data on approvals, rejections, additional info requests, appeals, and so on. If you can find a pattern to it, you've outdone the rest of us. I think you'll find in this forum all the info you need to put together a really good case, but we can't do it for you.

You might consider enlisting the aid of a solicitor in looking at your specific documents and the case you need to present. All the details of your case are really different from most of those on this forum (most of us are scientists, IT specialists, engineers, consultants), since you have the artistic significant achievement and your field is not similar to ours, so there are limits to the advice we can give regarding your specific circumstances. I would not be able to tell whether any of your described experience is "graduate level" or not unless you present documentation from that employer that states unequivocally that the position you held required a degree in something.

Since you have a job offer, another route to explore may be for them to obtain a work permit for you. That would be both quicker and less painful for you, though it would come with some restrictions.

Good Luck!

[JhonnyECU]

tr

[lynn132]

I wasn't suggesting you should give up - definitely use your new evidence and make the application as self-explanatory as possible. Don't assume they know anything about your field at all.

I didn't use a solicitor (applied on my own), so unfortunately cannot offer any advice there. Maybe one of the folks who did can point you in the right direction. My impression was that agents/solicitors cost lots of money, and that I would still be doing most of the elgwork myself anyway. The one thing they could maybe help you with is presentation. I do presentation and proposals in my work all the time, so I felt comfortable doing it on my own.

I amde sure in my experience documents that it stated explicitly that my position required a degree. Many others suggest on this forum that you also include info on WHY this position requires a degree. My experience letter from my current employer was three pages long, detailing my duties and accomplishments over the last several years.

Include all the job offers, interview invitations, etc, that you can get your hands on. I am sympathetic to the tv and film business, as I have a dear friend who works in the music and rubbish business. It's important IMHO that you show there is demand in your field. My field (environmental science) is booming in the UK right now, so I also included a recent market survey specific to the field.

One thing to keep in mind too, especially in your line of work, is that under this program, you have to spend 75% of your time in the UK, so you cannot be out of the country very much.

I wish I could be of more help. Good luck and if you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me.
lynn

[JhonnyECU]

dgfas

[Kayalami]

Especially, if you consider the fact that being new to this forum (i discovered 2 days ago)with ALL this time pressure over my shoulders (less thatn 24 days to appeal) has not been easy. I have realized the fact taht not TOO many SENIORS, MODERATORS or just normal members would help another member to get back up when she/ he is down on the floor after being refused!

Horsefeathers....perhaps you haven't read the FAQ. Can't speak for the other mods specifically but we have consistently stated that we are on the forum on a voluntary basis.

You messed up your HSMP application by failing to follow the instructions clearly stating that you must provide definitive evidence to support your self scored matrix. You assumed you'd sail through - you did not and have come back to the forum with an SOS on info for an appeal..do you know how many times this topic has been discussed? Did you bother to search historic posts? Have you noted how many members contributed their experience on this same subject without letting their frustrations get the better of them?

You now expect the mods to jump and give you an answer immediatley - you appear to have many skills but may I suggest you work on your patience. Thank you for your understanding.

[Cosmopol]

Jhonny, I have to concur that HSMP application guidance explicitly states that once the decision is made, no new evidence is accepted, and a new app must be submitted. Whether right or wrong, it's a policy fact, and we can't help but suggest that you follow the rules in this case. If you strongly believe the new docs equip your package better, please re-apply.

All the best.

[rella]

Jhonny,

If I were you, I'd put together a fresh application.

Hi Lynn and all!

HOW can i make my application "self-explanatory" without writing ALL the possible guides and important details on EACH section for teh caseworker to "SEE" what i am trying to explain with the "employment reference letters" or "national recognition of an artistic achievement letters"???

The caseworker will know nothing about your field and probably nothing about your country or your industry awards. It's up to you to make your case. You have to provide evidence, documentation and an explanation to the caseworker of what it all means, if you expect to get points awarded.

Remember that most of the people applying for HSMP are in the IT field. Even then, the applicant still has to explain everything clearly to the caseworker, since most applicants have work experience and education outside the UK. The caseworkers can't be expected to know how the education system of every country works or how every employer on the face of the earth categorizes their workers. That's why you have to help them to see why you should be given points.

HOW can i state explicitly that my position required a degree? does it count to be ecuadorian and work in one of most competitives countries in the world, like germany, in an area which is highly especialized as TV or Film and speak german??

No. There have always been people who broke into these fields without any formal education at all. How is a caseworker to know how your industry works? The best way to handle all of this, is to either write the letters for the employer, making sure it has everything that HSMP is asking for and have the employer review it, print it out on their letterhead and have them sign it -- or if you don't feel comfortable asking them to do that, you have to explicitly state EXACTLY what needs to be in the letter. Provide the employer with a bulleted list and ask them to be sure that they have all of that information clearly stated in the letter. Make sure that they use the word "graduate" in the letter.

The HSMP guidelines spell out exactly what they require. You can't assume that a caseworker will read between the lines on your experience letters. They will most likely have a checklist and as they go through the letters, they will compare it against their list to see if it has all of the required elements. If it doesn't, then no points.

my experience certificates dont emphazise that much wheter the "level" was graduate or not...they focus on RESULTS, on amount of shows produced...

contrary to many fields, working in tv or film can be a VERY exhausting experience since you have to be doing 2 or even 3 jobs simultaneously...

how can i prove that??

Provide letters that state what you did, that it requires a certain level of education -- and then explain all of this to the caseworker. What we did when putting together my husband's application, was to put a cover sheet with every single section -- explaining what was included in that section, and explaining why it was included and anything in particular out of the ordinary that we thought needed more explanation. Do something similar. If you need extra letters explaining how the industry works and what your qualifications and achievements are, get them.

i have considered the idea of printing some web links of job ads in which you can clearly see WHAT kind of "education and experience" one actually needs to get into one of this productions. what do you think about that?

It can't hurt. If you can show job descriptions that are equivalent to postions you've held and the jobs all require univ educations, then that could only be helpful to your case.

thanks for the idea of making the HO realize of the "demand in my field". well, media wise England is very strong and from all the jobsearch engines JUST for this field, i can tell you that it is BOOMING!!

That's important for showing that you will be employable if you're approved.

Spend a lot of time going through the guidance notes and keep in mind that a caseworker is completely naive about your area. When my husband submitted his application, he had included publications for the sig achievement section. When the caseworker asked for more evidence, they wanted to know how he could prove that these journals meant anything. They were the top jounrals in the fields of physics and astrophysics. But, a caseworker doesn't know that. You have to tell them. Then, how do you prove that your work is considered influential? You have to really think about that and come up with a way of explaining that to someone who has no knowledge of your industry. I really had a hard time trying to think of a way to show that my husband's research meant anything to someone who isn't familiar with the area. It's completley apparent to someone who works in the field whether it's crap or it's great work. How do you show that to a caseworker? Besides having successful people write a letter talking about the prestige of the journals and the importance of the work, the only other idea I could come up with was the science citation index -- where it shows how many times your work has been cited by other people -- kind of guage as to whether anyone thinks your work is worthwhile in the sciences. Of course, just because you're not cited often, doesn't mean it's not good work. But, you have to come up with some way of showing the caseworker that your work is signifcant.

Try to think of ways of showing your work is good enough to a caseworker, that they feel that you deserve the points for signficant acheivement. Remember that they know nothing about your field at all.

Look at your HSMP application like a proprosal -- you're trying to sell it to the caseworker, framing your documents in the very best possible light you can, while remaining honest about it.

That's all you can do. Try going over your documents with a critical eye, completely dispassionately -- using the HSMP guidelines to see if you can tick off each requirement. If your documents don't show that -- get new letters or whatever you need to prove it. Then, explain, explain, explain. Even add post-it notes if you have to.

[JhonnyECU]

agf

[rella]

One more bit of advice. Remember that a caseworker has a bit of discretion in deciding whether to award points - especially if it's a close call. Try to form a strong case without appearing arrogant or demanding.

[JhonnyECU]

asg

[mbg]

Jhonny, I have to concur that HSMP application guidance explicitly states that once the decision is made, no new evidence is accepted, and a new app must be submitted. Whether right or wrong, it's a policy fact, and we can't help but suggest that you follow the rules in this case. If you strongly believe the new docs equip your package better, please re-apply.

All the best.

Cosmopol,
As I read the HSMP guidance I found the following text: HSMP Guidence, Anex C - Payment Guidance - page 37 of 40:

"Reviews
27. You may ask for your case to be reviewed if you think the original decision was wrong. If the
review results in the original decision being changed, an ex-gratia payment may be made to
cover the cost of the review.
28. The decision to issue an ex-gratia payment will be made at a senior operational level. An ex-gratia
payment will only be made where we are satisfied that the original decision was wrong and
a review application was unnecessary. Please refer to the relevant guidance notes for full details
of the review process and how to submit an application for a review.
29. An ex-gratia payment will not be given where:
i) The review is approved on the basis of new information or evidence not previously
submitted.
ii) The original decision is upheld."

So this means that there is paid review where one can submit "information or evidences not previously submitted". The HSMP team does not give information on this as I send them an email asking for that type of review but no answer for more than a week - anyway it is in the Guidance so it should be possible to ask for a paid review based on new evidences, but keeping the original ref No and periods for age and salary.

[JhonnyECU]

gsf

[deborahCO]

ex-gratia = free (without payment)

as for qualification comparison, there is no good "chart" available. Check with NARIC. It's worth the L30 they charge for you to get their advice on your case.

[slor]

Good luck - you will need it! I would not be surprised if the HO caseworkers have guidance to treat TV/media applicants very skeptically. As others have said, the route to being someone in this industry is not well understood even by people on the inside! What is having a graduate-level job in film mean? To someone of the outside, nothing! It all seems to be whoever is funnier/prettier at the moment or someone has 'a feeling' or something... you've got to turn over that real prejudice that these guys will have against those in the arts/glamor type of fields. Anyone in an ultra-competitive industry such as the media where there is no chance at having a work permit to do this sort of work will have a much higher burden of proof as an HSMP applicant.

[Cosmopol]

While this may or may not be true, I certainly hope that WPUK hire professionals who are able to discern qualifications in a variety of fields, especially so since they deal with thousands of applications, day in and day out. Let's not be too pessimistic before the day is over.

[JhonnyECU]

sdf

[zeke]

JhonnyECU,

My advice to you is to breathe.

Just ….breathe.

Relax a bit.

Displays of great emotion in your disappointment and frustration will not help you to make your case to HSMP.

From what I understand of your case, you are not claiming points for salary. Am I correct about this? If so, and if you are also not worried about crossing the “over 28 line” before you reapply (I don’t know how old you are), then worrying about meeting the 28 day deadline for paid appeal is not useful to you, in my estimation (my understanding is that Paid Appeal preserves the applicant’s salary time frame and applicant’s age from the original application). So, simply lodge another –carefully assembled --application when you are ready to do so.

I understand that you have a job waiting for you in UK, but if your reapplication is not carefully assembled, you will likely be refused again. Maybe your employer will hold the job for you – tell them you will make a documentary about HSMP applicants and their struggles, inspired by your own encounters with HO and HSMP process!

So….breathe.

You have received very very wise counsel from all of those who have responded to your questions. I want to point out that you have received thoughtful replies from rella; in my opinion, of all of the kind members of this board, rella, who is highly qualified for HSMP, is the one on this board who has experienced the most frustrations with the HSMP process. You are not the only one to have experienced frustration with this process. I do agree with you that many of the HSMP guidelines are very broadly and vaguely written. (However, in the Guidance Notes it does clearly state that Significant Achievement can be on a national level).

My lifesaver is this board. When I was first exploring HSMP, I read this entire board, and took notes. Yes, it took a lot of time. A lot of time. But after reading all of the posts, I was then grounded in a thorough understanding of HSMP (at least the understanding of the members of the board.)

Completing this application has proven to be the most complex of my career, more complicated than applying for any job, or applying to study for my master degree. The fact that the official “guidance” is somewhat vague and that HO is difficult to communicate made the process more frustrating and overwhelming. So, I went back to helpful posts and re-read them. I posted my own questions, and received helpful responses. I shaped and re-shaped again and again how I planned to assemble and present my application.

The following topics contain posts from me – you may find my comments helpful, especially where they discuss proving graduate level experience:

http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic. ... light=zeke

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 29a7596aca

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... light=zeke

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... light=zeke

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... light=zeke


I suggest that you contact the caseworker who evaluated your application to ask him/her why your claims of work experience and significant achievement were rejected. Others on this board know how to reach caseworkers by email and also by telephone, I think. You may be able to access this information by using the board’s “Search” feature.

In fact, the “Search” feature can be a really great help.

It sounds like you have a lot to offer the UK. We wish you well in your application.

By the way, why are you worried about verifying the equivalency of your education through NARIC when you have already been given HSMP points for education? Your focus now should be on proving that you have graduate level experience in your jobs and in providing evidences surrounding your significant acheivement, right?

Keep us posted on your progress.

[Cosmopol]

would it help to my reference of employment letter the fact that i ADD some www print out of the most important organizations in tv in the UK which state the fact that the requirements for the positions i have held during these last 5 years, have been of graduate level?

My opinion always is that anything additional helps, even though it may be of secondary importance.

[JhonnyECU]

gfddf