“Island of Ireland” vs “in the State”

[BillM]

Two forms with different wording.

To apply for Irish citizenship as spouse, one needs to be “living on the island of Ireland” for three years - this includes Northern Ireland as I understand it, even though this is part of the U.K.

Form EU1 to apply for EU Treaty Rights refers to living (and activity) “in the State”.

Does “in the State” include Northern Ireland, and will the EU1 be accepted with a Belfast home and work address...?

Non-EU spouse and step-daughter already have C Multi-entry visa for Ireland, but expires later in 2018.

[mgb]

The Republic cannot issue a residence card for NI but with the irish citizenship they can do what they want.
With other words in the state means the Republic of Ireland.
If you want to live in NI you have to follow the british rules.

[BillM]

Thanks for your reply - yes - I understand that NI is part of UK, but...

You accept that the application for spouse citizenship specifically mentions "in the state", but also refers to the situation where the required three years have been spent in Northern Ireland...?

So if THAT form seems to, at least suggest, that NI might be "in the State", does the same logic apply to the EU1...? - i.e. that it can be submitted with Belfast work and home addresses.

Appreciate any further experience on that.

[CR001]

does the same logic apply to the EU1...? - i.e. that it can be submitted with Belfast work and home addresses.

No it is not the same 'logic' or rules. Don't confuse Irish citizenship LAWS with the EU regulations or UK immigration Rules. They are different and completely separate to each other.

[BillM]

I totally understand that, and with respect, I’m not confusing different laws, rules, or regulations.

I’m simply asking for a definition of “in the State” on the Irish version of EU1.

And I’m not nit-picking - you’ll be aware that in the original constitution of the Irish Free State, the “State” referred to the whole island of Ireland, and thus, in more modern times, the term “Republic of Ireland” has tended to be used when referring solely to the 26 counties.

Hence the confusion, and why I ask - can an Irish EU1 be submitted from a Northern Ireland home address...? Does anyone have any experience of doing so...?

After all, if someone is living and working in Belfast (on a U.K. spouse visa), but is seriously considering moving to the Republic after Brexit, isn’t the EU1 an obvious route now, whilst the U.K. remains in the EU...?

[chaoclive]

I totally understand that, and with respect, I’m not confusing different laws, rules, or regulations.

I’m simply asking for a definition of “in the State” on the Irish version of EU1.

And I’m not nit-picking - you’ll be aware that in the original constitution of the Irish Free State, the “State” referred to the whole island of Ireland, and thus, in more modern times, the term “Republic of Ireland” has tended to be used when referring solely to the 26 counties.

Hence the confusion, and why I ask - can an Irish EU1 be submitted from a Northern Ireland home address...? Does anyone have any experience of doing so...?

After all, if someone is living and working in Belfast (on a U.K. spouse visa), but is seriously considering moving to the Republic after Brexit, isn’t the EU1 an obvious route now, whilst the U.K. remains in the EU...?

Simple answer: NO. NI is not in the State. You can submit EU1 but it will be refused!

There shouldn't be any confusion. The original definition of the State doesn't hold water any more.

What is the problem with applying to the UK authorities for a residence card under the EEA/EU rules? That's the correct (and only, in this case) course of action.

I am an Irish citizen (only) living in NI and my civil partner is Chinese. He got his residence card (from the UK Home Office under the EEA regs a few years ago) and has applied of Irish citizenship (as you know, this covers 'the island of Ireland') a few months ago.

[chaoclive]

I totally understand that, and with respect, I’m not confusing different laws, rules, or regulations.

I’m simply asking for a definition of “in the State” on the Irish version of EU1.

And I’m not nit-picking - you’ll be aware that in the original constitution of the Irish Free State, the “State” referred to the whole island of Ireland, and thus, in more modern times, the term “Republic of Ireland” has tended to be used when referring solely to the 26 counties.

Hence the confusion, and why I ask - can an Irish EU1 be submitted from a Northern Ireland home address...? Does anyone have any experience of doing so...?

After all, if someone is living and working in Belfast (on a U.K. spouse visa), but is seriously considering moving to the Republic after Brexit, isn’t the EU1 an obvious route now, whilst the U.K. remains in the EU...?

If you are unsure or don't trust what the people here have said (which is correct) why not ask them yourself? Email: eutreatyrights@justice.ie. You will get an answer very quickly. INIS are quite good at replying.

[chaoclive]

Thanks for your reply - yes - I understand that NI is part of UK, but...

You accept that the application for spouse citizenship specifically mentions "in the state", but also refers to the situation where the required three years have been spent in Northern Ireland...?

So if THAT form seems to, at least suggest, that NI might be "in the State", does the same logic apply to the EU1...? - i.e. that it can be submitted with Belfast work and home addresses.

Appreciate any further experience on that.

If you check out the INIS website, you will see that, under the section regarding naturalization as an Irish citizen (as the spouse of an Irish citizen), it states:

'Residence
You must:
-Have resided on the island of Ireland for at least 3 years out of the last 5 years, including 1 year of continuous residence immediately before the date you apply
Be now legally resident on the island of Ireland'

The link is here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP16000022. This clearly differentiates 'the State' (mentioned above this quote in the same link) from 'the island'.

You will see the same here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... tml#l1f4da.

[BillM]

Thanks chaoclive, both for your insight and the links - I can indeed see that, within one document, one class of application refers to "the State", and another to "the island...".

As for why not exercise EU Rights in UK, the complication is that the EU citizen holds both British and Irish citizenship, and as I understand it, would need to renounce UK citizenship before applying to exercise EU Rights in UK, based on Irish citizenship.

[chaoclive]

Thanks chaoclive, both for your insight and the links - I can indeed see that, within one document, one class of application refers to "the State", and another to "the island...".

As for why not exercise EU Rights in UK, the complication is that the EU citizen holds both British and Irish citizenship, and as I understand it, would need to renounce UK citizenship before applying to exercise EU Rights in UK, based on Irish citizenship.

That's exactly right. And that's exactly what I did about 4 years ago

[chaoclive]

Thanks chaoclive, both for your insight and the links - I can indeed see that, within one document, one class of application refers to "the State", and another to "the island...".

As for why not exercise EU Rights in UK, the complication is that the EU citizen holds both British and Irish citizenship, and as I understand it, would need to renounce UK citizenship before applying to exercise EU Rights in UK, based on Irish citizenship.

The only other choice under the EEA regs are to exercise Surinder Singh (check it out on Google). Of course, the UK regs may be open to you (depending on income etc).

[BillM]

Thanks again chaoclive for that.

The disadvantage in SS (if I'm correct...) is that you have to have lived together in another EU country outside of Ireland (your "now" state) and the UK (where you want EUTR).

Given that you've gone down the renunciation route, would you recommend it...? Are there any disadvantages...?

Appreciate you taking the trouble to share all of this...

[chaoclive]

Thanks again chaoclive for that.

The disadvantage in SS (if I'm correct...) is that you have to have lived together in another EU country outside of Ireland (your "now" state) and the UK (where you want EUTR).

Given that you've gone down the renunciation route, would you recommend it...? Are there any disadvantages...?

Appreciate you taking the trouble to share all of this...

No disadvantages at all for me so far. The only thing might be Brexit-related issues if the rights of Irish people to stay in the UK change.

You do have to reside in another EU country for SS.

Do you have an Irish passport? If so, or if you have ever had an Irish passport, you won't be able to do SS in Ireland. If you've never had an Irish passport, you should be able to use your British passport to rely on EUTR in ROI. The INIS processing times are horrendous though so it would take quite a while to get the residence card.

Just being born in NI doesn't actually make you an Irish citizen. It makes you ENTITLED to be an Irish citizen. See here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/ci ... in-ireland. This probably would be enough to exercise SS in ROI, but I'm not a lawyer!

[BillM]

Not me - it’s a mate... They all say that, don’t they, but in this case it’s true LOL

Two problems - mate does have an Irish passport, fairly recently acquired, and with hindsight, maybe not the wisest move.

However, the Irish EU1 doesn’t ask if the EU citizen is also an Irish citizen (the U.K. one does ask about U.K. and will refuse EUTR if you are a U.K. citizen - some argue that’s unfair, and I believe it’s being appealed).

So whilst one MIGHT get EUTR in the Republic of Ireland, based on being a U.K. citizen, it seems fairly obvious now that one has to physically move south of the, albeit invisible, border. That’s difficult (but not impossible) if both home and work are currently in NI. Yes, they could move south, and I’d have thought that the unique Irish situation would legally allow a commute across that almost invisible border for work.

And yes of course you’re right about the EU1 processing times, but I had thought that the temporary process would allow them to stay until the EU1 was issued, which would then cover them until the qualifying period for Irish citizenship was up in about 18 months - unless of course transitional Brexit arrangements throw in a wobbler.

I really can’t see the Irish / British Common Travel Area ever changing though (at least not in my lifetime). The number of Irish living in the U.K. who would NEVER call themselves British (and indeed, vice versa) would make this logistically impossible (famous last words... LOL)

[chaoclive]

Not me - it’s a mate... They all say that, don’t they, but in this case it’s true LOL

Two problems - mate does have an Irish passport, fairly recently acquired, and with hindsight, maybe not the wisest move.

However, the Irish EU1 doesn’t ask if the EU citizen is also an Irish citizen (the U.K. one does ask about U.K. and will refuse EUTR if you are a U.K. citizen - some argue that’s unfair, and I believe it’s being appealed).

So whilst one MIGHT get EUTR in the Republic of Ireland, based on being a U.K. citizen, it seems fairly obvious now that one has to physically move south of the, albeit invisible, border. That’s difficult (but not impossible) if both home and work are currently in NI. Yes, they could move south, and I’d have thought that the unique Irish situation would legally allow a commute across that almost invisible border for work.

And yes of course you’re right about the EU1 processing times, but I had thought that the temporary process would allow them to stay until the EU1 was issued, which would then cover them until the qualifying period for Irish citizenship was up in about 18 months - unless of course transitional Brexit arrangements throw in a wobbler.

I really can’t see the Irish / British Common Travel Area ever changing though (at least not in my lifetime). The number of Irish living in the U.K. who would NEVER call themselves British (and indeed, vice versa) would make this logistically impossible (famous last words... LOL)

Whilst the Irish EU1 doesn't ask about being an Irish citizen, if he's found out them he'll be screwed! The UK SHOULD refuse EUTR if the person hasn't moved from the UK to another EU state - that's EU law and should be upheld.

What is the 'temporary process' you allude to? There isn't one as far as I know (unless he is resident in ROI, i.e. using EU1 from ROI). PLUS: you have to be able to prove the LEGAL RESIDENCE in NI for the Irish citizenship application. This may affect his choices. This following is an excerpt directly taken from the naturalization application form:
'Where the residency is in Northern Ireland, evidence must be given of being lawfully resident in that jurisdiction
for the period of 1 year immediately prior to the application and a further 2 years in the 4 year period before that,
equalling 3 years in total, on foot of a permission granted by the immigration authorities of the United Kingdom,
which period was granted other than for a period of :
 enabling you to engage in a course of education of study; or
 having a claim to be recognised as a refugee within the meaning of the 1951 Geneva Convention relating to the
status of refugees and the 1967 protocol relating to the status of refugees determined by the UK authorities.' (http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/form8-ve ... jan-18.pdf)

I don't know all the details, nor do I have an interest to really, but I think that there are very few choices here for a dual UK/Irish citizen who wants to stay in NI.

[mgb]

The disadvantage in SS (if I'm correct...) is that you have to have lived together in another EU country outside of Ireland (your "now" state) and the UK (where you want EUTR).

That is not so clear. Some eu countries have the opinion the McCarthy judgement is only applicable if no borders were crossed.
For instance a dual national with danish and german citizenship who is moving from Denmark to Germany is exercising treaty rights due to the german implementation of the directive. The treaty rights are only important for third country family members.