British & Irish passport holder + Sth African Fiance..He

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:44 am

Hi everyone, firstly Thanks in advance for any replies - Its much appreciated. I have searched this site and the internet for information but cannot find the specific answers I need and I seem to get a lot of contradicting info too...!

I met my fiance in July 2006 while he was on a working holidaymakers visa. This expired in November 2007 so we went to stay in South Africa for 3 months - I came home early on Christmas day (great day for travelling eh?!) and he is following me in a couple of days time from now on 31st Jan.

Background info:
I have both British and Irish Passports (Born in England but did foreign birth registration for Ireland)
I own 2 houses (mortgaged - 1 is a rental property)
I am starting new full time employment on 4th Feb (left previous job to go to South Africa)
Dont have any savings at the moment (Can probably arrange temporary funds transfer from family if it helped!)

He is worried that he will not be allowed entry on the 31st as he does not have a return ticket (Better for us to buy one this end in Â£'s than in Rand in S.A as I will have been working for a few months to save up for ticket)
Q1: Are there any particular rules regarding refusal of entry due to not having return ticket?

Q2: We want to get married so we can settle in either country, probably UK to start with. I heard recently that EEA citizens do not need Certificate of approval to marry in the UK - is this true?

Q3: I understand usually that a foreign spouse has to apply for spouse visa.. As I am Irish citizen, apparently I can exersize my treaty rights which means we do not have to apply for this visa as I have the right for my partner to join me in any EU country, including the UK - can anyone confirm this?

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Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:12 pm

1. It's always advisable to have return ticket when on a visit visa (or waiver), the IO won't know/believe any stories about EEA permits etc and if the keywords 'girlfriend' 'marriage' or even 'work' are mentioned, he'll be turned back to SA, with the assumption of 'attempting to settle' - big no-no on a visit visa.

2. You don't need a CoA, EEA or not, your fiance does though.

3. Yes, spouse or partner in a durable relationship (currently meaning 2 years provable living together).

I don't know if you can switch from visit visa to EEA FP in country (reading back you don't have the 2 years anyway), but my main concern for you both would be making sure your fiance shows intent to return on his visit visa. Remember at this stage he is entering the UK on his own merits, not with any help from your status, and if the IO gets wind of anything like that, he'll be most likely denied entry.

All IMHO....

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:07 pm

Thanks a lot for your reply.

Am feeling a bit nervous now as theres no way we can buy a return flight b4 tomorrow!! Oh well, see what happens. I just hope they will believe him! The only reason he doesnt have a return flight is because he is comng here on the return leg of an existing flight booked. I hope he can stress this to them.

Post by **JAJ** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:09 pm

Chunkofpunk wrote: Q3: I understand usually that a foreign spouse has to apply for spouse visa.. As I am Irish citizen, apparently I can exersize my treaty rights which means we do not have to apply for this visa as I have the right for my partner to join me in any EU country, including the UK - can anyone confirm this?

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Are you aware it will be a longer wait for British citizenship if you choose the EEA route?

mirnat · Post by **mirnat** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:38 pm

It may be longer, but it is a lot cheaper! (see my post of today regarding fees for spouses of British citizens!)

Post by **JAJ** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:38 am

mirnat wrote:It may be longer, but it is a lot cheaper! (see my post of today regarding fees for spouses of British citizens!)

Not everyone can afford the "cheap option." And incidentally, on the EEA track you do still need to pay for naturalisation (plus Life in the UK Test).

A delay of 2 years in obtaining British citizenship may be a huge deal for some people.

And it's not just the delay in getting citizenship - it's also the delay in getting permanent resident status (3 years).

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:05 pm

JAJ wrote:
Chunkofpunk wrote: Q3: I understand usually that a foreign spouse has to apply for spouse visa.. As I am Irish citizen, apparently I can exersize my treaty rights which means we do not have to apply for this visa as I have the right for my partner to join me in any EU country, including the UK - can anyone confirm this?

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Are you aware it will be a longer wait for British citizenship if you choose the EEA route?

The wait isnt really that much of a problem... as daft and cheesy as it sounds as long as we can be together then the rest isnt a problem!!

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:07 pm

JAJ wrote:
mirnat wrote:It may be longer, but it is a lot cheaper! (see my post of today regarding fees for spouses of British citizens!)

Not everyone can afford the "cheap option." And incidentally, on the EEA track you do still need to pay for naturalisation (plus Life in the UK Test).

A delay of 2 years in obtaining British citizenship may be a huge deal for some people.

And it's not just the delay in getting citizenship - it's also the delay in getting permanent resident status (3 years).

He probably wouldnt want to do the nationalisation thing anyway, he is too proud of his country!! As many South Africans are.

Post by **JAJ** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:50 am

Chunkofpunk wrote:The wait isnt really that much of a problem... as daft and cheesy as it sounds as long as we can be together then the rest isnt a problem!!

I often hear people saying that. And it's easy to say when you're fixated on the short term, with respect.

But the cost/hassle of 2-3 extra years without a British passport (eg having to apply for tourist visas to travel, delays in renewing South African passport etc) may well override any "saving" made at the outset in opting for the EEA rules.

Many South Africans aren't concerned about keeping their citizenship upon becoming British, those for whom it is important can seek permission in advance.

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:22 am

Im not actually concerned about the financial side of things, I think it was someone else who mentioned costs.

I understand that to travel he wouldnt need tourist visa to travel as long as he is accompanying me and within Europe. We wont be travelling anywhere else apart from S.A anyway.

He would definately want to keep his S.A citizenship, I see that he needs to arrange this before / if applying for British Citizenship..

Post by **JAJ** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:02 am

Chunkofpunk wrote:Im not actually concerned about the financial side of things, I think it was someone else who mentioned costs.

I understand that to travel he wouldnt need tourist visa to travel as long as he is accompanying me and within Europe. We wont be travelling anywhere else apart from S.A anyway.

As long as you understand the consequences.

The problem is that the EEA family permit has acquired a "cult status" and is over-enthusiastically promoted by many who either don't understand or don't care about its one significant downside.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:47 am

Chunkofpunk wrote: I understand that to travel he wouldnt need tourist visa to travel as long as he is accompanying me and within Europe. We wont be travelling anywhere else apart from S.A anyway.

This is officially true but in practice.....

Imagine going on holiday without visa but with a ream of paperwork of printed EC Directives and explaining/arguing/stressing with every single official on the way. Some holiday.

You see although we might know the EC Directives, the IO's don't, the check in staff don't, so be prepared to be turned home at the first hurdle....

There's lots here in the forums on this, some have done it, some haven't...

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:41 pm

Just an update: He got passed immigration no problem. They asked him the normal (i presume) questions and then called me and confirmed this. He said they werent that concerned about him not having a return flight as he explained that we were buying it from this end. I wonder if the IO was just in a good mood on that day!?

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:21 am

Hi all. We have decided to marry in our local parish Anglican Church so no need for a COA apparently.

When we've married what is the next step to get his EEA family permit?
I think were going to go down the route of using my Irish Passport.

Thanks in advance. And Happy April Fools day! x

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:02 pm

you cannot get an eea fp from inside the uk. that is just an entry clearance to allow people inside the country.
apply with the eea1/eea2 forms instead and get a 5 year residence permit.

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:18 pm

Thanks.
I have just spoken with an immigration consultancy company based in London and the person I spoke to had no idea of what i was talking about in regards to using my Irish Citizenship without applying for a Spouse Visa...

Everytime i think i start to grasp this someone tells me conflicting information!!
So when we are married, what is the next step.
(Will he have to leave the country to apply for any sort of residency?)

Our situation will be : Me a British / Irish passport holder - Him South African. Married and me working full time with savings.

What will we have to do. The lady at the company i spoke to said the EEA1 / 2 does not apply to us as he is not a EEU member.

Where can I find a reliable and official source of information?

Post by **vinny** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:23 pm

Chunkofpunk wrote:Where can I find a reliable and official source of information?

Applying under European law and European Casework Instructions.

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:23 pm

Thanks, thats more like it!

Appreciated.

Christophe · Post by **Christophe** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:46 am

Chunkofpunk wrote:Im not actually concerned about the financial side of things, I think it was someone else who mentioned costs.

In that case, I should have thought that going down the spouse-of-a-British-citizen route would make much more sense than the EU/EEA route...

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:49 pm

Ok, is there a particular reason for that Christophe..?

thsths · Post by **thsths** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:59 pm

Chunkofpunk wrote:What will we have to do. The lady at the company i spoke to said the EEA1 / 2 does not apply to us as he is not a EEU member.

I hope they did not charge you for not being able to answer your question? Anyway, the evidence you need to supply is nearly identical to the spouse visa, but the form is different, and the EEA Family Permit is free.

Where can I find a reliable and official source of information?

That is a good question. Since the legal situation is disputed, and the information on the home page of the BIA is usually out of date and/or misleading, it is not easy. The European Casework Instructions are probably closest to the actual process.

Tom

Christophe · Post by **Christophe** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:52 pm

Chunkofpunk wrote:Ok, is there a particular reason for that Christophe..?

Only the timing issues, if gaining British citizenship is important; if it isn't (and it might not be), then no, there's no particular reason.

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:53 pm

The consultancy lady clearly didn't have a clue what she was talking about. the EEA2 application is SPECIFICALLY for people who are of non-EU nationality. Whereas the EEA1 is for EU citizens only!

Get the EEA2 form from the BIA website, read up on all the requirements and questions they ask, make sure you have all the paperwork ready for it, and make your spouse apply using your Irish passport.

I am not sure, since you also have UK citizenship, if the EEA1 application applies to you. Some more experienced forum members should advise you on that. (in either case you do not NEED it. it just might speed up the application process if you send both forms together with all the supporting documents)

Within a few weeks of the application being sent, you should receive a confirmation letter which clearly states that the application is under consideration and your spouse is ALLOWED TO WORK and live with you.
Then within 6 months the permit should be sent to you.

Chunkofpunk · Post by **Chunkofpunk** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:09 pm

Hi there, thanks for all your replies.
I contacted a company today to get some info over the phone and what she told me conflicted with prior advice again.

I am quite shocked at the level of knowledge and competency of supposedly qualified immigration advisors who are working for some companies at the moment.

The person i spoke to said that firstly, as he was on a visitor visa we would not be allowed to marry by the church. (We have provisionally booked a chuch marriage for June, they said all we need to do is get a common licence - which is underway).
Secondly, the fact that i have dual nationality would make no difference as "they" would view me as a British Citizen rather than an EU citizen living in the UK... Surely "they" cannot decide this is i hold both passports...

Does anyone have contact details including name for a specific solicitor who has handled this type of case before who is fully conversant & competent? Please PM me if so.

thsths · Post by **thsths** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:12 pm

Chunkofpunk wrote:I am quite shocked at the level of knowledge and competency of supposedly qualified immigration advisors who are working for some companies at the moment.

If you mean "lack of knowledge" and "incompetency", I completely agree.

The person i spoke to said that firstly, as he was on a visitor visa we would not be allowed to marry by the church. (We have provisionally booked a chuch marriage for June, they said all we need to do is get a common licence - which is underway).

I would double check that. The Church of England has slightly different rules, but generally non EU foreigners would need a CoA.

Secondly, the fact that i have dual nationality would make no difference as "they" would view me as a British Citizen rather than an EU citizen living in the UK... Surely "they" cannot decide this is i hold both passports...

Nobody can decide that, because there is nothing to decide. You are an Irish national, and as such covered by the European right of free movement. This interpretation is confirmed by the ECJ in http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/s ... l=guichett (case C-369/90, sorry for the long link), so there is absolutely no doubt about it.

Does anyone have contact details including name for a specific solicitor who has handled this type of case before who is fully conversant & competent? Please PM me if so.

You do not need a solicitor for the European law. And as you found out, very few have experience in this field.

Tom

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British & Irish passport holder + Sth African Fiance..He

British & Irish passport holder + Sth African Fiance..He

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