REFUSED, what are my chances to appeal against with this??

[JhonnyECU]

Hi dear members,

I am gathering crucial evidence to write a concise, uk equivalent and fact-proofed honest letter to hsmp team explaining my very strange and particular case to have my application reviewed and hopefully aproved!

please, take a few minutes to read this BRIEF review of all my appeal ideas based on what i found in an official UK website. I would like you to provide your honest and most accurate feedback as people who are NOT familiar with this field, same as any caseworker, for me to assemble my evidence in the best way:

A. Yesterday, i happily found the www.skillset.org (Council for the UK Audio Visual industries, which compromise broadcast, film, video, interactive media and photo imaging). i quote this UK council website in these 8 items and present to you my appeal ideas:

1. "skillset's work is to make sure that the UK Audio visual industries have the right people, with the right skills, in the right place, at the right time, so that the industries remain competitive".

so, if i get to prove that i have the necessary skills and knowledge according to this UK council, would that count for the hsmp?

2. "To work in television is not like being a lawyer or an architect, where there is a set and known training carrer path. Work in television is not like being a Doctor, where without the training and the qualification you will not be trusted with the work. The one overriding rule on Careers in Television is: there is no absolute rule. If you can do the job well, you will often get to do the job, no matter your background or training".

having worked in diverse productions in 10 countries should proof that i can do my job well, right?

3. The main employers in Television are: BBC and ITV (Granada media). TV production is concentrated in London.

among some replies from tv companies in london, I have a "job interview invitation email" from BBC and another positive email from the "Staff Scheduling Manager" from "Granada Entertainment ", stating that "they will keep my details on file and would contact me again if htere any vacancies". Both emails provide the persons full name, email adress and london telephone numbers

4.The uk tv industry contributes around 12 billon GBP to the UK economy, with exports approaching 500 millon GBP. Most experts agree that there is major potential for future growth.

Damn, it is am important indursty, not just glamour!!

5. this industry is hard to break into as the work is exciting, glamorous, reasonably well paid, and with prospects for advancement. Entry through being well qualified, highly skilled and committed.

I managed to study a BA of film and tv production in the UNIV, a master in documentary filmmaking. the problem is that MY reference letters NEVER state the word "graduate" since it is NOT mandatory in the field. however, the ones who have this academic background, do have an advantage over the other candidates.

6. People from all kinds of educational and cultural background work in television.

well, since we all come from OUTSIDE the EU, this could benefit these industries with our cultural backgrounds and diversity, right?

7. Reputation really counts. "You are only as good as your last job" is a common saying, and there is much truth in that. This is a small industry, and word goes round - fast!

my last assigment was in Munich. i had to speak, english, spanish and german there. i worked in 2 big tv productions in Germany and other 4 countries. once again, my letters explain my capacity to do 3 positions in the same project but NOTHING is said about grad experience. however, this performance is almost like "senior level, kind of experience, if you were to make an equivalent with other fields"! OF course, i am only claiming plain and simple graduate experience.

8. Key skills for television are generally listed as:

Creative skills
Communication skills
Problem-solving abilities
Team skills
A flexible approach to life
Tenacity
The ability to sell your skills to potential employers
An awareness of the current, and possible applications of technology.

if you read ANY of my former employers letters you would find these skills quite often. unfotunately, they never said "graduate experience" because that would NOT be neither real or proofable!


B. NOW, lets imagin you folks are all caseworkers,WHAT would you think after reading SUCH an explanation from one of the applicants??

all feedback is gold to me

thanks a lot for your time and help

much appreciated,

jhonny

[JhonnyECU]

hi folks,

i forgot to include my case info:

applied on Oct 27, 2004
faxed job offer on Dec 21, 2004
urgent treatment on Jan 6, 2005
application refused on Feb 22, 2005

field: tv and film
country: ecuador

points claimed

Age 5
Master in documentary filmmaking, Barcelona University 25
almost 3 years of tv and film GRAD level experience 25
won an ecuadorian young directors film festival in 2000 15

total 70 points

the caseworker gave me 25 education and 5 age...

please moderators and seniors, advise for me to appeal in the best way!

much appreciated,

jhonny

[deborahCO]

I think the problem lies with the jobs you undertake not normally requiring a graduate degree to be hired, even though you do have the degree. From what you've quoted, it clearly appears that a degree is NOT required for the positions, and that experience rather than education is the emphasis.

Is there a way you can show that you supervised staff, led the direction of the company/film/project, or in any way made senior-level management decisions? That might help.

As much as I love the tv/film industry (worked in it for awhile myself), it simply doesn't require a graduate degree for a production assistant, which is my understanding of what your experience mainly consists of. The HSMP requirements clearly state that the job must normally require a graduate degree, so you'll have to figure out a way around that. Given that your job is so unusual, you may have to rely on some previous employers to write more detailed letters as to why they hired you with your degrees, rather than someone else, and the ways your education enhanced the job post/resposibilities.

You're obviously very talented and creative - just think of it as designing a film and figure out what you want to educate your audience about and plan accordingly! Best of luck!

[zeke]

JhonnyECU,

I agree wholeheartedly with deborahCO.

Here are my thoughts:

The objective third-party explanation of the work you do in your industry(ie., the website) looks like an excellent resource for you.

All of the quotes from the website and the explanations you made to them belong, I think, in your new HSMP application.

Write a good strong cover letter to your application that explains that you have an excellent academic background in your field and that you have proven success in it (your film award). You wish to bring your talents and track record of success to the UK. Give some examples of projects you hope to work on. Mention the job offer from BBC.

You now have two problems:

1. Your jobs have not required the skills of someone with a degree.

2. You still don’t have a clear idea about why you were not given credit for your film award.

However. …

You have now the list from this website of the kinds of skills that are valued on your industry. Can you generate a list of skills and knowledge that you did gain in your degree? Can you link these skills and knowledge areas to things you have done in your work positions? Can you give examples of instances in which your graduate level abilities were key to solving certain problems in your work situation? Can you get verification of these things from former employers and/or your university professors and/or the organization that you found on the Internet?

The HSMP caseworker will be asking herself, “Why, if a degree is not required for this industry, would a university offer a master degree, and why would someone undertake the master degree? What is the advantage of having a degree in a field in which a degree is not needed?” Address these kinds of concerns in your application. Again, letters from others in your field (as I have listed above) may be helpful. It may be very helpful indeed for your former employers and/or the BBC to write a letter explaining why they would prefer to hire someone with the degree. Are there any aspects of those jobs which someone without a degree could not perform competently? Give examples.

As for why you did not score points for your film award, I am of the opinion that you must communicate with the caseworker who evaluated your application so that you will know more about how to address this issue in your new application….

Ultimately, you may have to accept the fact that you do not qualify for HSMP because your job experience does not require graduate level abilities. Rules are rules. Obviously, you have a history of great success and you will continue to have success even if you do not get approved for HSMP. HSMP is not the only opportunity in existence, and new opportunities for creating new success will surely emerge in the future. My guess is that you yourself are good at creating opportunities for yourself. I think that it is important to keep these things in perspective as one approaches the HSMP application.

But, you have nothing to lose (except some money ) by re-applying. Our friend deborahCO is correct that you can approach this as if you were planning a film...

Would your potential employer at BBC be willing to brainstorm some ideas with you? Is it a hard and fast rule for them that they don’t interface with the work permit system?

Keep us posted on your progress!

[JhonnyECU]

dear deborahCO, zeke and all members,

thank you zeke and deborah for your insightful replies!!

after reading your suggestions, i have spent some time today trying to write an interesting, easy to read email to some people at BBC Recruitment. basically, i asked them if they would help me with a letter or email which explains the reasons for them to prefer to hire someone with a degree or not.

we will see what the reply.

deborah, i have done few production assistant work. i ahve also been assitant director, unit manager and props assistant...to name a few. the problem is that there is nothing like an international equivalent chart.

like many successful members of this forum, i could write these letters again and have my former employers sign them...but i am just trying to go to the root of all this. i just dont want to write something which is not true. those things come back to get you later on in your career!

zeke, your idea of making a list of skills learned from my academic studies and applied into my professional duties is EXCELENT!!

the only problem is that in my university, i learned lots LOTS of technical and non technical aspects of tv and film production. ie (camera operator, directing, producing, etc)
it has been 5 years since i left school, so i will have to think HARD to remember which things i picked up in the classrooms and which in the professional world...
i was always involved in "real" productions in some indie companies in ecuador and was shadowing older guys in my tv and film department...

Write a good strong cover letter to your application that explains that you have an excellent academic background in your field and that you have proven success in it (your film award). You wish to bring your talents and track record of success to the UK. Give some examples of projects you hope to work on. Mention the job offer from BBC.

i will definitely write a spectacular, concise, ULTRA-explanatory cover letter when i apply again...and will have it proofread by two native speakers friends of mine! zeke, well, i only have a job inteview invitation email form the BBC, i wish it was a job offer thouhgh!


guys, i think i can prove that SOME positions require a degree. if the BBC helps me clarifying this "not very typical explanation to give in tv" i will have an incredible support to prove my 25 points of graduate experience.

one of the things that people in the industry say is "film school is not necessary, but it provides a very stong solid basis to build on".

i think tv recruiters DO care about degrees, they just dont say it. nobody has ever told me "your degree doesnt make a difference in this production" but like i said before in my case, people can TELL sometimes when someone has gone to filmschool or not...plus, it has been a dense mix between univ knowledge and hands-on training...

i couldnt do the work i do now, excluding one of these from the equation!


it has been a LONG day, sorry if i am not that bright in my writting.

love for all

jhonny

[deborahCO]

It sounds like you're getting together a well-developed plan for your reapplication. I agree with Zeke - his suggestions were excellent.

Re: your academic skills applied to real life - try looking at the school's current curriculum for the coursework required for your degree. It wil often describe in great detail the skills the student is expected to develop during the course. You can then take those descriptions (I'd send them with the HSMP application) and write a summary of how you use those skills in your many positions in the industry. You could also print out job adverts for the types of posts you've held (or will be applying for) showing that those particular skills are what is required in a successful job applicant. In doing these things, you will give the HSMP caseworker a more full picture of why a degree is preferred and how your degree has played a role in your work.

Again, best of luck!

[zeke]

JhonnyECU,

Many members of this board have found it helpful to post their employer letters here for us to see -- sometimes we can see a point or two in the letters which should be expanded upon, thereby making the letter stronger...

Why don't you do the same and take advantage of the combined brainpower on this board? (You can XXX out the places that give away your identity...) I myself feel that my own rapidly emerging HSMP application (finally!!) is really the product of a team effort, taking place right on this board...

By the way, what have you been able to find out about why your achievement of the film award was not given points in your original HSMP application?

Keep us posted!

[zeke]

I made a quick visit to www.skillset.org, and it looks to me like this is an organization very concerned about standardizing the kind and amount of skill utilized by workers in the audio visual media, and advocating for an increase of professionalism (formal skill sets) for this industry. see:



http://www.skillset.org/skillset/role/s ... 2833_1.asp

as well as other parts of the website.

JhonnyECU, could it be said that, because you have not only a proven track record of success and an excellent academic background, that what you have have done in your past jobs is cutting edge because you have brought a formal academic background to jobs and roles that have been not so formalized in the past? You may be able to argue in your HSMP application that you have already done what Skillset is advocating for in the UK (and has been asked by the UK government to research further) -- you may be an example of what they are talking about here! I might certainly imagine that Skillset would be very interested in your problem with HSMP and may be able to help you to make your case to HSMP -- Skillset may really understand the issues related to your dilemmma of having a sophisticated degree for an industry that does not fully integrate (yet) the degree credentials into its job expectations, but thinks that they should be integrated/formally recognized.

Does this sound plausible to you? Am I reading the Skillset website correctly?

[JhonnyECU]

Dear Zeke, Lynn132, DeborahCO and Rella,

frankly, i dont know HOW i would have done this without your great help and advice...you are all genius, THANK you for your useful tips!!

sometimes, my head is about to collapse from all the time pressure, stress and TOO much information to digest in such a short period of time that when reading ALL those web pages doesnt make sense anymore. definitely, you guys and the WHOLE forum think better than my not-too-bright-at-the-time head!

the WAY Zeke wrote HOW my situation could be presented is JUST very powerful...

Zeke wrote:

you have not only a proven track record of success and an excellent academic background, that what you have have done in your past jobs is cutting edge because you have brought a formal academic background to jobs and roles that have been not so formalized in the past? You may be able to argue in your HSMP application that you have already done what Skillset is advocating for in the UK (and has been asked by the UK government to research further) -- you may be an example of what they are talking about here!

I will try calling someone in the Skillset and talk to someone directly. You are right Zeke, they might be very interested in defending my case.

Basically, proving something like what i have achieved so far, will be the "minimun expected average of education and skills for the media workers in the future". it is also anothe possitve thing that the UK Government supports the Skillset research on this regard. if i get some from Skillset support my application is going to be so heavy that it might break the caseworker's desk! HE HE HE


thanks for your fantastic advice lynn and rella, i think i will have to ask you all to proofread my cover letter before sending it.

good news!! i just got an email from one of the BBC Recruiters answering to my queries. She is willing to "discuss my issue over the phone" so she gave me her office number and i am suppossed to call her tomorrow in the afternoon.



ANY ideas of WHAT i should ask her...if i play my cards intelligently and honestly, i might get the BBC on MY side as well!!

i will definitely have to make a documentary or a fiction story about this whole HSMP complicated application process!

thanks once more to all the help provided.

zeke once said "the forum is my lifesaver" i agree with that 100%!!

gracias

jhonny

[zeke]

Congratulations on assembling new members of your team which will (hopefully) lend their support to your framing of your HSMP application!

Keep us posted on your progress!

[JhonnyECU]

hi dear forum members!

today has been a very productive day...

i have to prepare my questions for my BBC phone "interview" tomorrow. i will be basically trying to get information about their recruitment philosophy.

these are some "example" questions i might ask her tomorrow...

does it help for an applicant to have a graduate degree in tv?

what is the difference between one that has and doesnt have a degree?

are there jobs not recommended to someone without a degree?

i am jsut writing a draft list here...

however, ALL the ideas are more than welcome!

thanks

good night

jhonny

[JhonnyECU]

hi all members,

it has been a great week so far.

hope to get BETTER letters and news to share in the following days...

wish you all lots of sucess!

jhonny

[deborahCO]

Jhonny:

I would ask the BBC recruiter if she could supply you with a written job description which includes the reference to a graduate degree being preferred if possible. It sounds like they are willing to work with you as you're obviously quite talented.

Please keep us posted on your progress!

Deborah

[JhonnyECU]

hi folks,

i just spoke 27 minutes with a very nice person from bbc.

although this bbc recruiter would not be authorized to write any letter to any job applicant supporting any work permit related subject (there is nothing like a rule that says "we bbc hire people ONLY with a degree" this is very relative, it depends of the position, the experience, motivation, etc.) she took a long time to give me extensive advice of how i could prove that the skills i have gotten from the uni ARE applied to my field, bbc job description matching my skills , etc, etc!

it was actually a good "insider" view of the bbc recruitment considerations. i thanked her and told her i woud keep her updated with my progress. she said "we will be happy to receive your application!"
of coure, she meant to say "ONCE you get your bloody work permit, mate!" he he

as suggested by some great people here, I am just working on getting as many ideas as possible for me to PROVE my "graduate experience" in my former employers' "experience letters" by showing HOW i applied, what i learned from my degrees, efficiently to the productions in which i have worked so far.

it works like a charm! now the letters will look and SOUND much better, well, lets hope my caseworker has a good ear!!

I am getting some FANTASTIC help from some dear members of this forum in many ways. THANK you all members who take the time and effort to push my case forward! if we all make it to london, which i TRULY hope, the beers are ON me!!!!


by the way, i just learned today that the current processing time for FRESH applications goes SOOOO fast...they literally go "straight through!" hopefully, ours go directly to the "approved outgoing mail" room!!

oh, one thing, i read this post from a guy this morning, who had sent his application in early january, got it back a little over a month later!!!

wow, miracles DO happen!!

will keep updating my progress...stay tunned!

lots of warm light to all

jhonny

[bani]

For significant achievement - would you be able to get a letter from the film awarding body stating how competitive the festival was (number of entries), what were the criteria they based the award on, and why your film won? It would also help if you could get someone in the industry (another filmmaker for instance) write a good review of this film and your directing to send to the HSMP team.

We are in different fields but I also claimed points in this category and the additional letters my caseworker asked of me are along those lines.

Good luck!

[JhonnyECU]

Thank you for your suggestions, Bani.

I am VERY concentrated in generating outstanding written ideas for me to show HOW i applied my degrees knowledge into the projects i worked on during the last years.

this is taking an AWFUL amount of time...oh boy!

as for your queries about the award...i have made a list of some documents which i didnt have access to before, but now that i am back in my good old sunny ecuador, i can take advantage of these. i.e. famous film directors, original newspaper page about the film festival...

i will let you know when i get more evidence in my hands.

thanks for the tips!!

bani, can you tell us a bit more about your case, timeline, status..?

cheers

jhonny

[zeke]

Great ideas from our friend Bani!

JhonnyECU, I have a thought about "graduate level" work activity...

The film for which you won the award -- how long did you work on it? In what context did you work on it? In other words, was it part of a school project, or was it part of a paid job, or was it something you did on your own?

Methinks that you might be able to claim that the work you did to create the film demonstrated graduate level skill, and claim the work you did on the film towards your points for graduate level for HSMP. After all, if you wrote and directed and conceived of the concept of the film, you most certainly used skill, knowledge, techniques, theoretical ideas, etc etc that you learned at University, yes? And the University-gained knowledge was absolutely neccessary to the successful execution of your film concept, yes?

You could write a letter explaining these -- with examples that show relationship to University-learned ideas-- then you could get one or two third-party endorsements of what you wrote in your letter, from others respected in your field and who are familiar with your film.

In this case, if you worked on the film independently, you were in the position of independent, self-employed filmmaker!

Even if you worked on the film part time for a year or two, this could help you in case some of your more formal work settings were not 100% graduate level in nature. (For example, in my application, I give myself half-credit for part-time work. If I worked a year in a part time graduate level position, I count that as 6 months towards the 10 years I am required to show in my over 28 HSMP application.)

By the way, I am also of the opinion that you could do the same kind of calculations for your formal job settings if they do contain graduate level activity, but may not be 100% graduate level -- give yourself partial credit for the job/s, and explain in the application how and why you are doing that.

[JhonnyECU]

dear zeke,

you are one-piece-of-an-idea-generating-machine, buddy!!

you scare me sometimes

thank you for your interesting ideas about SA and "half-scoring"...

is that allowed by the hsmp?

if i was to get creative with this half scoring, no offense intended zeke, i would get all my job interview invitations and make it pass as ONE job offer...he he

or make my 6 months of work in a Warner Bros. feature film pass as one year of senior position level!!


well, back to serious hsmp conversation, for the ones who are really interested about this film award thang...

i made that shortfilm under the most professional requirements as an indie filmmaker (Low-no budget) back when i was 22. it was "for a class" at the uni but that was the excuse to get access to top-of-line equipment and editing facilities. i wrote the script in a record time and through contacts and friends managed to get access to a very posh cafe and a great actor, the main character. i operated the camera, directed and then edited this 3 minute comedy and now have it as my first indie film.

the national competition had 23 shortfilms from the most important cities in ecuador. the jury was headed by the most imoprtant filmmaker of all times here and the festival had tv and print media coverage.

and that would be it people, sorry to dissapoint you!

now i am getting every piece of evidence for the caseworker to give me this needed 15 points.

i dont think i can claim ANY "graduate level" of experience for this film...however, i have an example of waht i have done professionally:

Prioritizing the director’s needs and goals to work efficiently:

For this duty, Mr. provided a specialized support to the directors. He used his knowledge from degree courses like: field production, creative use of the camera, grammar of images, nature of microphones, shoot for editing and multi-camera directing, to make technical and non technical decisions: supervising that the crew was working according to the director’s ideas, following a logical shooting plan on every location to ease the editing, organizing the cast positions on the indoor and outdoor sets, ensuring that the director can achieve his production’s content goals to the last detail.

how is it with this half scoring thing?

cheers

jhonny

[zeke]

I don't know whether HSMP "allows" half-scoring for parttime positions. I am taking a risk here.
It is simply a solution I have come up with for the problem that some of my experience is parttime -- I am assuming that HSMP is interested in fulltime work.

Also, the Guidance Notes and WP website give very little detailed information -- I have had to "fill in the blanks" with ideas that are logical and which support my application...

Sometimes life demands that we think "out of the box", and proactively, at that. This idea of "half scoring" parttime work is an example. HSMP Guidance notes don't say that I can't do half scoring, does it? (But, then again, there are lots and lots of things that the Guidance Notes don't say!!) If anything, I think that the HSMP caseworker will see that I am aiming to be totally honest about my work experience and how I calculate and figure that I am eligible for HSMP.

Life is full of risks! Many wonderful adventures have come my way because I was willing to take risks, even ones that my dear family thought I was crazy to undertake...Applying to HSMP is a risk. Joining this board and applying the wonderful information I learn here is a risk, because I have never met any of you -- we are helping each other through the new and modern medium of the Internet; we on this board are pioneers in this regard! Think about it! A generation ago the Internet didn't even exist, and the next generation to come will take the Internet for granted -- and here we are, discussing and helping each other with a hideously complicated application process, all in an international context, without knowing each others' true names or genders or nationalities or professions!...

Going to the UK to live and to work is a risk. Getting my degree was a risk, and adopting my little cat, whose name is
Her Royal Highness The Princess Iota Scintilla of the Bubble Bath Banana
was a risk ( and now you see that consulting with small children about what to name an animal is a great risk, and a fun one at that!! )

Anyway, I digress. I apologize for getting a bit silly here.

Here is a link to an earlier post in which I describe my thoughts about what JhonnyECU calls half-scoring. What do you all think??

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... t=parttime

P.S. I call her "Iota" for short.

[JhonnyECU]

hi all!

i support what zeke does 100%.

that is called BEING human!!

why do we all have to PRETEND we are not suffering before getting accepted to this program?

we, as humans, have the right and NEED to express or feelings sometimes, either frustration, happiness and even anger!

zeke, dont worry as you being a bit silly, that gives me one more example that you are being honest here!

it is late, i have done lots of work today and tonight...i deserve some beer, i think


it will be funny to tell this story to my grandchildren. they would ask me "hey, grandpa, so you could NOT see and talk to the people who were helping you?"

however, i think that writing is a great medium to gather info, without getting distracted by body language, colors or shapes. it could just be terribly cold sometimes...if it wasnt for our infamous little things...




cheers dear forum...i will NEVER forget you!

good night!

j

[Saint]

I'll play the devil's advocate here:

I don't want to be discouraging and I (with all my heart) hope that you'll get half points with part time experience. However, apparently HO caseworkers are not allowed to make decisions in any other way than the one written on the guidelines, in which it is clearly indicated that an experience should be full-time.

Moreover, by definition, a part-time experience can be 1 hour/day or 7 hours per day. "Part" doesn't necessarily mean 50% in part-time and they unfortunately have no way to check this. So I wouldn't count on half points. Again, with all my heart, I hope that I'm wrong and Zeke if you do get half points please post it to the forum as this might change many applications.

I just wanted to write my conservative view on this in order to be helpful to others reading this post in the future. Hope it helps..

[JhonnyECU]

hey saint and al members,

saint, thank you for your perspective on this half point thing.

lets wait until ONE of us here in this forum replies to this very matter...

i would not make ANY comment on the way any caseworker considers ANY of our provided evidence...

also, would not be able to understand HOW this processing times work . it seems that all these britains have to get their clocks straight up in sheffield, for god's sakes!!

back to the main idea of this post...

i have good news today, in this rainny day in quito. i FINALLY recuperated my BA trancript. this is excellent news because i can use EVERY class i have applied into my many duties...

i had forgotten about the "names" of many of them already!!

for example, fundamentals of communications or principles of management. cinema techniques workshop....how do you like them apples, caseworkers??

another thing that is almost certain about HO is the amazing fast processing times nowadays!! go HO, go!!!

today shall be a LONG and productive re-writing-letters-of-experience day!!

havent heard anything from skillset yet!!

j

[JhonnyECU]

hi friends,

how specific your graduate level of experience supportive letters are supposed to be? i just dont want to be too specific

does anybody have any experience with NARIC UK?

how long does it take to have them check some degrees?

thanks

jhonny