Naturalisation eligibility to be increased to ILR+2 years???

[tobiashomer]

Emma84, I am iin exactly the same case as you. I asked an immigration advisor the same question, and she said we will not know anything even tentatively until the draft legislation comes out (in May?), and under the fastest case it is not likely to become law before the end of the year (2008). So you and I will be holding our breath: we will either just squeak in without probationary periods and community mickeymouse, or not. So far (4-to-5, points for HSMP, now this new uncertainty) everything has turned out worse than I could have imagined.

It certainly takes the shine off the whole experience, being mucked about like this. But what can we do, leave? that unfortunately is just what Mr Byrne and his cohorts would like, some nice statistics saying that the numbers getting ILR and citizenship are falling on his watch. Because it is all about spin and politics and short-term courting the vote of the Great Unwashed. Just like the res-non-dom fiasco where they are killing the City of London to please the tabloids: do they think high-flying entrepreneurs and executives and global players come here for the weather? the food? the low cost of living?

so we have gone from: "an Englishman's word is his bond" to indefinitely moveable goalposts, confirmed in the highest courts of the land. Had I suspected any of all this was conceivable, I never would have come; but have no choice now, house, mortgage, kids in school, the full catastrophe. Some day when I don't have to fear reprisals (being either naturalised or gone), I will write it all up to show New Labour's betrayal of British values.

[thirdwave]

Emma84, I am iin exactly the same case as you. I asked an immigration advisor the same question, and she said we will not know anything even tentatively until the draft legislation comes out (in May?), and under the fastest case it is not likely to become law before the end of the year (2008). So you and I will be holding our breath: we will either just squeak in without probationary periods and community mickeymouse, or not. So far (4-to-5, points for HSMP, now this new uncertainty) everything has turned out worse than I could have imagined.

It certainly takes the shine off the whole experience, being mucked about like this. But what can we do, leave? that unfortunately is just what Mr Byrne and his cohorts would like, some nice statistics saying that the numbers getting ILR and citizenship are falling on his watch. Because it is all about spin and politics and short-term courting the vote of the Great Unwashed. Just like the res-non-dom fiasco where they are killing the City of London to please the tabloids: do they think high-flying entrepreneurs and executives and global players come here for the weather? the food? the low cost of living?

so we have gone from: "an Englishman's word is his bond" to indefinitely moveable goalposts, confirmed in the highest courts of the land. Had I suspected any of all this was conceivable, I never would have come; but have no choice now, house, mortgage, kids in school, the full catastrophe. Some day when I don't have to fear reprisals (being either naturalised or gone), I will write it all up to show New Labour's betrayal of British values.

I think Mr Byrne and Cos twisted logic has finally started making sense to me now..What they are proposing is in effect extending the period on FLR beyond the initial 5 year period by dressing it up as 'probationary ctizenship'. I thought it a bit odd that citizenship would be apparently easier to obtain than ILR, with a shorter probation period but I`ve now realised that its just part of a bigger plan to keep people on FLR for longer so they would have no access to public funds or full access to the labour market (jobs needing SC etc). Under the proposals, one can certainly apply for Citizenship after the 1st year on probation but there is every likelyhood that one would have to wait up to 3-5 years for ILR or Citizenship, depending on how well you prove your 'worth' to the HO (and filling its coffers in the process), with naturalisaton in a year's time presumably being harder to qualify for than ILR in three years time..The changes essentially remove the clear pathway to residency that exists at present and replaces it instead with an opaque system that can be manipulated at will..One can only hope that these changes are primarily aimed at low skilled non EU immigrants and that they would consider the case of highly skilled migrants more favourably..

[thsths]

Under the proposals, one can certainly apply for Citizenship after the 1st year on probation but there is every likelyhood that one would have to wait up to 3-5 years for ILR or Citizenship, depending on how well you prove your 'worth' to the HO (and filling its coffers in the process), with naturalisaton in a year's time presumably being harder to qualify for than ILR in three years time. The changes essentially remove the clear pathway to residency that exists at present and replaces it instead with an opaque system that can be manipulated at will.

Indeed. And probationary citizenship is limited to 5 years, so unlike now, time is working against you. I wonder what happens if the Home Office takes 5 years to process your citizenship application. Do you have to leave because the probationary citizenship expired? And I guess this would cancel the application for citizenship? It is all very strange indeed.

I think it would help significantly if they also presented a few "what if" scenarios. Tell people what they want to know, instead of defining lots of new categories and vague concepts. Maybe we could actually do that ourselves. Of course based on the sketchy information given so far, this would involve a certain amount of guesswork to complete the picture.

Tom

[tobiashomer]

so what would your guess be for the likes of Emma84 and me (1 year ILR in january 09)? will we be able to apply for naturalisation or will we be caught in the swampy new system?

[alientrader]

so what would your guess be for the likes of Emma84 and me (1 year ILR in january 09)? will we be able to apply for naturalisation or will we be caught in the swampy new system?

not to be pessimistic, but seeing how things have gone, from 4-5 years rule to HSMP FLR changes which were all retrospective, I would say expect the very worst scenario.

[Siggi]

Guys as I have said before if you have ILR now, there is no ways that the new laws will effect you.

Remember as it stands now people with ILR are all but British, as far as rights go.

The only the right they don't have is that of nationality and that they can not take away from you.

Unfortunately people who will be effected by the changes are those who don't have ILR yet.

[tobiashomer]

Siggi, I would like to think like you do about this. However I remember when the 4-to-5 thing first surffaced; I thought "well, that is tough for new arrivals but SURELY they will never apply it retrospectively." But they did. The point is that to get the statistics they need in the short term, they must attack those who are already well advanced in the process; otherwise nothing will really change for several years. and that is after the next general election; Mr Byrne might find himself in charge of a canine hospice in Milton Keynes. Cynicism, thy name is New Labour!

[Siggi]

Tobias,
I too remember the 4-5 year change and it effected me too, but I think you miss the point a bit here.
The point is that with ILR you are no longer under immigration controll, where as before you where subject to immigration controll.
Dispite my hate and deep mistrust of Labour I don't think they cut the ILR conidates out.
Saying all that has been said I guess we will just have to wait and see.

[thirdwave]

Tobias,
I too remember the 4-5 year change and it effected me too, but I think you miss the point a bit here.
The point is that with ILR you are no longer under immigration controll, where as before you where subject to immigration controll.
Dispite my hate and deep mistrust of Labour I don't think they cut the ILR conidates out.
Saying all that has been said I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Well, that might be the case(although one could argue that ILR holders are still subject to a degree of immigration control) but individuals currently on ILR might find that their applications for naturalisation are delayed as a result of the proposed changes. I agree that it`ll be difficult for the HO to revoke the status of existing ILR holders and some transitional arrangement would have to be put in place for them under the new rules..Like Thobias said, the whole process would end up leaving a bad taste in the mouth of many migrants who would quite justifiably feel humiliated by the the requirements placed on them and consequently undermine the very integration and cohesion these changes are supposed to acheive..

[dnicky]

I reckon HO would put in place some sort of transitional arrangements for migrants on ILR and due to apply for citizenship when, and if, the new rules get implemented. There is no clear indication of suchcircumstances in the green paper. Will have to wait till the consultation period is over to get a more clear picture !

[SYH]

I reckon HO would put in place some sort of transitional arrangements for migrants on ILR and due to apply for citizenship when, and if, the new rules get implemented. There is no clear indication of suchcircumstances in the green paper. Will have to wait till the consultation period is over to get a more clear picture !

there is no need for transitional arrangments. ILR, then naturalization. That's that even in their new order

[dnicky]

The proposed changes do not allow direct transition from ILR to citizenship as is the case now. As I understand the new credit score that the migrant would require to gather by doing extra stuff such as community service to be eligible to apply for naturalization would also apply.
Alternatively, a migrant could stay permanantly on ILR if he/she opts for.

[SYH]

The proposed changes do not allow direct transition from ILR to citizenship as is the case now. As I understand the new credit score that the migrant would require to gather by doing extra stuff such as community service to be eligible to apply for naturalization would also apply.
Alternatively, a migrant could stay permanantly on ILR if he/she opts for.

Yes it does. You haven't looked at it correctly
If you already have ILR, you are safe.

[Emma84]

The proposed changes do not allow direct transition from ILR to citizenship as is the case now. As I understand the new credit score that the migrant would require to gather by doing extra stuff such as community service to be eligible to apply for naturalization would also apply.
Alternatively, a migrant could stay permanantly on ILR if he/she opts for.

Yes it does. You haven't looked at it correctly
If you already have ILR, you are safe.

Are you sure about that? Or is it just speculation?

Is it possible for someone to call on the Home Office to make an official statement on how they plan on dealing with people in my situation? The fact that they've ignored an entire group of us with ILR shows to me that they haven't really thought this out at all.

[thesaint]

Guys as I have said before if you have ILR now, there is no ways that the new laws will effect you.

.

Absolutely right because with the new proposals the end of the journey either a citizenship or ILR

so people with ILR already reached the end of the journey

[SunBlue]

So what happens to dependent of EU citizens?
They get Permanent Residence in 5 years. So that means that in the EU law they have advantage and get to the end of the journey faster?

I am wondering if the new citizenship law will say that people can apply for citizenship at any time after getting Permanent Residence, so depedent of EU citizens would be able to apply immediately after getting Permanent status.

[Siggi]

Glauco,
EU citizens are the winners all round with the new Green paper, to the disadvantagee of non EU citizens!

But weather or not EU citizens will be able to apply for citizenship any earlier five years, I doubt it!

[thsths]

So that means that in the EU law they have advantage and get to the end of the journey faster?

Faster than family members of non-EEA citizens, but not as fast as spouses of UK citizens. At least that is what I read into it, and I think this would be by design. With the extension of the EU, the proposed rules are really about restricting immigration from non-EEA countries.

I am wondering if the new citizenship law will say that people can apply for citizenship at any time after getting Permanent Residence, so depedent of EU citizens would be able to apply immediately after getting Permanent status.

That is possible, but the interaction between national law and EU law has always been a bit fuzzy. Chances are that we will not know the details until the first few cases have been to the ECJ

Tom

[aboudi]

Eu citizens get permanent residence after 5 years but their non-EU family members get a 10 year endorsement in their passport, rather than indefinite or permanent residence permit. Wonder how they would fit in the new rules....

[SunBlue]

Aboudi,

Non-EU family members get Permanent Residence status after 5 years too, however the card itself is renewable automatically every 10 years, so they place a 10 year endorsement, but it's still a permanent residence status.

[munhumutapa]

When are the new rules likely to happen?

Since it's a white paper - it'll only be published to test the water before the rules are introduced...

[ddjj1978]

anyboydy knows any news about the ILR rule changing back to 4 years for work permit holder and HSMP granted before the change.

[William Blake]

I think all immigrants should be made to do 18 months community service cleaning my car. It's really filthy at the moment.

It's only a matter of time...

You can tell a man by his car.

[William Blake]

Just heard on the today programme on radio 4 that new levy will be introduced which the immigrants have to pay for the use of public services such as schools and hospitals.

All this is doing my head in. It's just the persistence of this government to stick it to the people who are their easiest targets in this matter that just p*sses me off. Ugh. I'm going to stop there and wait until I actually see this hallowed "green paper" before I start writing what I really think.

Again, if you haven't checked out the Citizenship Review website, DO IT NOW.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/reviews/citizenship.htm

Read the attached publications. Write within the next few days to the Review Team with your feedback. Today's announcement may not be officially linked with the review, but I would suspect that similar minds will have access to both processes.

Yeah so what are we going to do about it? We are all so unhappy by this kind of treatment, any ideas what we can do about it?

Surely all this bad treatment will only make alienated and disenfranchised citizens at the end of it all. Its hard to put trust in an administration that refuses to speak for you. They oppose us from the first day we set foot here. Even ten, 14 years later they still oppose you and at the end of it all if you do get that citizenship they expect you to say you are proud to be British. Yeah well maybe so but whenever does this administration say it is proud to have us here. Modern day slavery is what this is. They milk us till they cant take anymore and then disown you when your time comes.

They want us to have an obligation to this country but they want to have no obligation to us. I think its time we took a stand collectively as immigrants in this country. Immigrants who built this country and in many cases immigrants of forefathers who bulit this country. Good on the hsmp forum folks for taking a stand. I wish we had an ascertive body that spoke for all immigrants in this country - something like the joint council for the welfare of immigrants but more robust.

[thirdwave]

Well, the govt's plans in this respect were broadly outlined in Gordon Broon's 'Queens speech' earlier this month..

Follow the link to read about the proposals on Citizenship and Immigration..Open the PDF file and jump to page 57

http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/do ... 2/7372.asp

I think its fairly clear that the 10 and 14 year rule may be a first casualties in the shake up. Its also ominous the way they talk about wanting to change '10 seperate pieces of immigration law and replacing it with a single act of parliament' and providing for 'sharper and more consistent immigration rules that can be quickly adjusted (read 'changed at the drop of a hat') in response to changing circumstances'.

I think the qualifying period for ILR may be extended to 5 years for all categories (including spouses, pre 2006 HSMPians etc) and the Citizenship rules might be further tightened. The questions in the Citizenship consultation revealed some of HO's thinking in this regard-for instance, one question related to extending the qualifying period for naturalisation to 3 years post ILR.

My feeling is that the HO has been very slow to respond to the JR judgement on HSMP as they are expecting primary legislation to trump the verdict in November..