Ban for 'overstayers'.

[DarkMaelstorm]

Yes, I realise that this particular horse has been flogged to death beyond its umpteenth reincarnation. However, I need some feedback on my situation.

I was here as a student. I had no real desire to stay. On this very MA, which I began in the fall of 2006, I met the hot-goddess that would become my wife. Things were great, with the exception of the fact that her parents were really ill. Her father has a history with cancer and was due to undergo another round of radiotherapy for prostate cancer. He was already very weak and his condition had us strained.

We wanted to get married, but Home Office had this COA regulation in place. Furthermore, being a sincere couple who were busy looking after family and keeping our relationship going, we didn't really look into any of these rules - our biggest mistake. Sorry, but we just didn't get the time to jump hoops for a 'system' that should be making life easier rather than feeding more complications. In the summer, even her mother ended up with a melanoma in her right eye (cancer) and we were all hit pretty hard. Even she had to undergo surgery in October. Now, I don't mean to make excuses per se, but we just weren't in the mood to tackle Home Office. I still had a visa that was valid until January 31st, 2008. After the operation was done, we decided to take an active role and sent out our application for a Certificate of Approval from Home Office (around mid October, I think).

Many weeks into the application, we were sent a letter asking for certain documents--including affidavits--that would establish the sincere nature of the relationship. We jumped the hoops and did whatever they told us to do; we had a wealth of information to offer. So we wait, and we wait, and we wait. I receive my COA just six-f'n'-days before my visa was set to expire. WTF, MATE?! I didn't pay and apply for COA simply so it would have no use! And it would've been flying pigs over London the day any registrar would just take in COA anytime a person walked into the office. It takes bloody weeks just to get appointment to give notice. Hell, we would've been married in the summer if it wasn't for all these hoops that Home Office expects foreigners to jump before getting the basic right to pursue family.

We called Home Office immediately and explained the situation and our desire to use the COA. Home Office told me that this can be accomplished, and that I need to fill out the FLR(0) form. Three more weeks pass, and on Valentine's Day, I am refused - OUCH! My visa has expired, and they tell me that I have a limited right of appeal as the FLR(0) only applies to my situation if i wanted to extend my STUDENT visa under the premise of wanting to pursue further studies. Thank you, HO; perhaps I can help these guys find their own @$$ one of these days.

At the same time, we had finally gotten a booking from the registrar to give notice. The earliest date we got for marriage was 31st of March. Neither of us wanted to throw this opportunity away either. I could've taken her with me and avoided this whole fiasco, but she's agnostic and I'm staunchly atheist (don't start, please), so I didn't want to go to a country where we'd be forced to have some kind of religious figure--sanctioned by law of country--sitting in when we solemnise our marriage on paper. (Yeah, okay. Beggers can't be choosers.)

This wasn't the only reason. Truth be told, my wife's parents--my in-laws--are not in good health. We've pretty much been taking care of them from the start of our relationship. They're both old age pensioners in this country, and suffer from severe health problems. It's already hard enough keeping her mother-in-law's diabetes under control. Gist of the rant being that I wasn't just being lazy for the kicks - I was preoccupied.

During the course of the next month, we were jerked around by an immigration lawyer who kept scaring the life out of me, and insisted that I enrol onto a University course. He basically wanted me to justify the FLR(0) application so he could use the limited right of appeal. I just didn't see how this could be pulled off in such short time. Not to mention, Home Office knew of my intentions full well. It was also during this time that we suspected that my wife was pregnant with our first child - she was! We did manage to solemnise our marriage on paper here in UK on the 31st of March.

We also began work on an FLR-M application, which we backed with our circumstances. Even our family GP wrote a letter for the Home Office, explaining the medical problems that plague my in-laws and how they depend on us for physical and moral support. The letter also verified my wife's pregnancy.

Once again: Application was refused! Reason: Because it was outside the date of my entry clearance. Okay, fair enough. Additional note: This decision doesn't breach Article 8 under the Human Rights Act. My thoughts: Utter BS! This is complete disprespect for my right to a family life. It not only violates my rights, but also those of my English wife and her parents who have contribuetd to this country.

The letter stated that I don't have a right to appeal and that I should leave on my own accord, as soon as possible. They added that my documents were forwarded to the local enforcement office; I wasn't given an address, but just a phone number. I was told to contact them and discuss my plans for leaving before I make any firm plans to leave (okay?).

Now my question for the seasoned and the well-informed:
Should we leave? My wife insists on remaining with me. We are very 'into' each other and I don't mind taking her along. However, my in-laws is the source of concern for the both of us. Is there a chance that we could fight this from here, in the country?

Secondly, if we do leave, willingly, self-funded: Am I gonna' get this nasty little ban? I thought spouses and people under such circumstances are entitled to a family permit from the country where the passport was issued? I heard that this also applies to overstayers. We are married by english law. My wife is even undergoing her medical appointments regarding the pregnancy.

Thirdly, if we were to fight this issue from here, would that be comrpomising our chances? I have read that sometimes when they say there's no right to appeal, there's still the chance that AIT will consider a case if genuine humanitarian grounds exist.

Information and input would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[eliasuk4u]

First of all sorry to hear about your situation.
Can you tell us which country are you from? you said that you have tons of evidence of you living with your wife and clearly document that this marriage is geniune and not the marriage of convenience then I would recommend you to leave the country as soon as possible with a good required evidence folder and apply for entry clearance from your home country. This is the quickest option available to you. Bear in mind that there is a concession for overstayer (what ever your excuses are) until October 2008. There is an automatic ban after this date. If you apply in country, you have to wait for very long time often years and at the end HO will simply refuse your case and by that time the overstaying ban might have activated. So quickest way is to apply for entry clearance from outside the country. Goodluck.

[DarkMaelstorm]

Eliasuk4u,
Thanks much for the information and the gesture of sympathy.

As for my details. Well, my passport is of Pakistan origin. I don't go for the whole 'from' idea anyway; humans aren't plants in my view. Besides, even on that front, I was born and raised in Stockholm, Sweden, and then Spain. Simply put, I'm 'from' a diplomatic life; my father worked for Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I have hardly spent much time in there aside from the occasional visit and trips for passport renewals. However, holding an official document from that country for nearly two-decades by virtue of my parents' career, my next passport as an adult was bound to be from there as well. (Sorry about droning on.)

With regards to our case, I don't mean ground-breaking evidence where doubt might be a problem. We are in a sincere relationship. She was on my very course; we graduated with the same degrees. We were married here, at a local registrar's where we acquired a marriage certificate. The ceremony was cosy, small, just as we wanted, with our basic family and a couple of friends (we have pictures of the whole thing as my girl's crazy about photos). She's also pregnant with our first child. Aren't these strong elements? She's even accompanying me on this trip so she can support me when I apply from the other end. Her father's always supported us and even offered his support as our financial sponsor. He also provides us with accommodation at their family house. Don’t these elements imply a sincere relationship? (I just don’t see the point of more proof when we were scrutinised and had to acquire a COA just to get married. I thought the whole point of a COA was to weed out the sincere cases from the frauds.)

And what’s this concession about? I think I missed out on the actual details. Although I have read a few comments on this board about people having a lighter view of their situation as overstayers. Even the local MP’s office told me that I should try to go back and reapply ASAP as things would get very tight after October 2008.

Thanks again.

[Frontier Mole]

The easiest and fastest way is to return home and apply for entry on a spouse visa. Trying to fight it out in the UK court will get you no where, will take several months before you get a hearing and more to the point will leave you in much worse position.

The current concession gives you the opportunity to return to PAK prior to 1st October 2008 and apply for entry without a mandatory overstayer refusal. You will still have to meet the requirements for the spouse visa; accommodation and maintenance are the biggest issues. I think this might be the real issue here. If your wife is not working or has minimal income you can not rely on third party funding / sponsorship even from your wifes family. They can help / supply accomodation as that is fine as long as the house is of a suitable size. But fiscal support is not allowed under the rules. The question will be has she an income that can support you both, failing that or in addition does she have saving that allow her to support you both.

No one in UKBA is in the least bit interested in your history up to the grant of COA or your married life in the UK after the civil marriage. They are only interested in your overstayer status. It is accepted that you have a real marriage unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise. If that had been the case this would have resulted in a refusal of the COA.

You have a zero / minimal Article 8 claim as the marriage was in the full knowledge that your immigration status in the UK was as an overstayer. The pregnancy is of no value either. UKBA will say you can return to with your wife to PAK and exercise your right to family life there. There are no insurmountable obstacles to you or your wife in doing that and that will be the view from the AIT as well.

Focus on going home armed to the teeth with all the documents required for gaining a spouse visa and put in the application. The main problem will be the time scale for the decision to be made. It will take a good few weeks.

[eliasuk4u]

I agree with Frontier Mole.

She's also pregnant with our first child. Aren't these strong elements?

Not really, you need to document everything you say on paper. Documentation is very important. Ofcourse your child's birth certificate will have your name on it as a father which is a plus but that alone will not get you a visa.

She's even accompanying me on this trip so she can support me when I apply from the other end.

Good that you ARE going to apply from Pak. Again you have better chance from there rather than applying in country which often end with refusal.

I thought the whole point of a COA was to weed out the sincere cases from the frauds.

You are wrong, its not just to weed out the sincere cases from the frauds as you described. Its also to stop people getting married while they are here illegally or with a short stays which is not issued for the purpose of marrying or settling.

Even the local MP’s office told me that I should try to go back and reapply ASAP as things would get very tight after October 2008.

That's 100% correct. You have until October 2008 to leave the country. If you leave after that, you will be subject to automatic ban from 12 months to upto 10years depending on the immigration offence. (Not scaring you but telling you the truth)

[DarkMaelstorm]

The easiest and fastest way is to return home and apply for entry on a spouse visa. Trying to fight it out in the UK court will get you no where, will take several months before you get a hearing and more to the point will leave you in much worse position.

The current concession gives you the opportunity to return to PAK prior to 1st October 2008 and apply for entry without a mandatory overstayer refusal. You will still have to meet the requirements for the spouse visa; accommodation and maintenance are the biggest issues. I think this might be the real issue here. If your wife is not working or has minimal income you can not rely on third party funding / sponsorship even from your wifes family. They can help / supply accomodation as that is fine as long as the house is of a suitable size. But fiscal support is not allowed under the rules. The question will be has she an income that can support you both, failing that or in addition does she have saving that allow her to support you both.

No one in UKBA is in the least bit interested in your history up to the grant of COA or your married life in the UK after the civil marriage. They are only interested in your overstayer status. It is accepted that you have a real marriage unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise. If that had been the case this would have resulted in a refusal of the COA.

You have a zero / minimal Article 8 claim as the marriage was in the full knowledge that your immigration status in the UK was as an overstayer. The pregnancy is of no value either. UKBA will say you can return to with your wife to PAK and exercise your right to family life there. There are no insurmountable obstacles to you or your wife in doing that and that will be the view from the AIT as well.

Focus on going home armed to the teeth with all the documents required for gaining a spouse visa and put in the application. The main problem will be the time scale for the decision to be made. It will take a good few weeks.

Well, I am already in favour of applying from PK. However, I don't get how this isn't in breach of article 8. Regardless of the situation; other people are also being affected. What about the fact that we look after her parents who'd rather be looked after--physically--by their family rather than the state? Since you didn't comment, Frontier Mole, I am assuming you believe this factor doesn't even count.

Besides:

There are no insurmountable obstacles to you or your wife in doing that and that will be the view from the AIT as well.

And just how do they 'expect' a British Citizen to just get up and leave a place they've called home since birth to embrace a completely new country and climate as a new abode? Last time I checked, the articles of the ECHR weren't empirical measuring tools because of the subjective nature of what we all call 'human rights'. Well, that's enough nit-picking at philosophical contradictions for me, right now. I'll just get on. . .

Naturally my wife's just graduated and become pregnant. She only had a window of two-months in which she was finding work but ended up pregnant in that time so no job. We do have funds, however. The forms even ask if I receive money from other sources - relatives, this was also asked in the previous applications. I am supported by my family as well. One of our close family friends here has been managing my expenses. Even I get lumps of cash from my parents and their family resources. I don't understand why UKBA would constrict me from having funding from my own family, when it was perfectly acceptable for them while I was a student on an even longer stay of 3 years (this is referring to a prior course). Not to mention, my current--near 2-year--stay where I have had no financial problems, either. But. . .

No one in UKBA is in the least bit interested in your history up to the grant of COA or your married life in the UK after the civil marriage.

I guess that same attitude also applies to my ability to sustain myself while living here for nearly two years, I suppose. Having them consider this factor would mean that rational decretion took greater priority over bureaucracy and politics. (Sorry for coming off, bitter.) You folks are right on the money. Thanks.

[eliasuk4u]

I don't understand why UKBA would constrict me from having funding from my own family, when it was perfectly acceptable for them while I was a student on an even longer stay: 3 years (this is referring to a prior course)

You are no longer a student. The requirement for student is different from the requirements for spouse visa. Therefore its acceptable to get support of funds from family for student but when it comes to spouse, Your wife is a sponsorer so the weight is on her to support you financially with out recourse of public funds.

I am supported by my family as well. One of our close family friends here has been managing my expenses. Even I get lumps of cash from my parents and their family resources

As metioned earlier, The financial side of requirements must be met for spouse visa and it must be from your wife (Sponsor). ECO no longer accept financial support from family members.

[DarkMaelstorm]

Right.

What about funds that are strictly in my name? Can I not support myself?

Sorry about the late edit:
What about living expenses. If we're covered with accommodation; we actually get two rooms in the house. Then how much more do they expect us to show for living costs because that can vary depending on how a person choses to live.

[eliasuk4u]

What about funds that are strictly in my name? Can I not support myself?

You need to ask that exact question to entry clearance officer not me. As far as I know your wife's financial support is prime and ofcourse yours will be secondary support. May be other members can give more guidance in the mean time its have a look at this link which might be useful to you. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

[DarkMaelstorm]

What about funds that are strictly in my name? Can I not support myself?

You need to ask that exact question to entry clearance officer not me. As far as I know your wife's financial support is prime and ofcourse yours will be secondary support. May be other members can give more guidance in the mean time its have a look at this link which might be useful to you. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Thanks again for the link. I've had a read through. As for speaking with an entry clearance officer. This is going to sound ignorant of me, but how? If this means calling Home Office, then I am not too confident that I'll get much useful information (Ref: FLR(0)). I am really not familiar with any other way to get in touch with an entry clearance officer. Should I send this query to the person who handled my last application?

Now the following question might sound really stupid:
This October 1st deadline. I under that I must leave before this date. But what about applying for future visas. Do those have to be done before Oct 1st, 2008? Or will I--despite having left the country before the date--still suffer a penalty if I apply late.

[eliasuk4u]

But what about applying for future visas. Do those have to be done before Oct 1st, 2008? Or will I--despite having left the country before the date--still suffer a penalty if I apply late.

You can apply any time you want. The deadline is for any illegal entrant or overstayer to leave the United Kingdom. If you leave UK after this date you will be liable for the ban.