Urgent help required, spousal visa rejected

zionkitten · Post by **zionkitten** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:27 am

Hi

Today, my husbands settlement visa was refused and this is the worst day of our life! My husband came to the UK in 2003 on a student visa, however, he was stopped at the airport and told by immigration officals that the visa was false and he would need to apply for asylum. My husband, at the time was very young and from a country (Moldova) where they were no opportunites. He did not understand that the visa was false, having little knowledge of such rules, and he did not speak any english to understand the word 'asylum'. He was dumped in manchester and left basically to fend for himself, which he did. We met in January 2004, fell in love and moved in together (by this time he had learnt english) however, he recieved a deportation order. We were so young and in love that we didn't want to be parted so i regret to say that he stayed. we made a good life for ourselves. We got married in a church in 2007 and we decided he should return back to Moldova and apply for settlement so that we could begin a normal life together. We did not seek advice but was told we would need to show sufficent funds to support ourselves. At the time, i was studying for a masters degree and working at the same time, i was also a host parent for a foreign student (to earn extra money for our case) so could not visit my husband in the 9 months we were apart (in this age of MSN and SKYPE we have actually seen each other every day) When we managed to save up enough money we applied thinking 'of course it will be granted, we're married!) we also summitted all the requested documents. My husband was subjected to a vicious interegation at the embassy (is this normal?). Then today, he was called to the embassy and given his refusal document. His application was refused under section 320 (7a, 7b) HC 395 as he had overstayed in the UK previously and section 281 (iv), (v) and (vi) HC 395 as the HCO did not believe we would be able to live without recource to public funds (we have a lot of money saved, much more than required and i have a good job as a teacher) did not believe there would be adequate accomadation available (I sent tenancy agreement showing i am sole tenant) the letter also suggests that our marriage is not real (letter could not dispute the marriage legality but said it was strange i did not visit my husband in the time we have been apart) My husband had explained why i could go and also because of the danger i would be putting myself in (i am 4th gen UK but family heritage from Jamaica) Moldova is a dearly beloved country and my husband did not want me subjected to any negativity.
the letter ends by saying that

'after careful consideration of your rights under Article 8 on the European convention on human rights. i remind my self that this is a qualified right and although there may be perceived interference with your right to family life such interference is justified for the purpose of maintaining an effective immigration control, is proportionate to that aim and does not therefore breach your convention rights. i also remind myself that there is nothing in Moldovan or English law that prevents your wife from travelling to Moldova to enjoy family life.'

We are quite frankly shell shocked. There is no life for us in Moldova. Do i have rights as a british citizen to live here with my culture and husband, certainly that is a breach of my human rights? Does anyone know of any conncessions? my husband has been banned for 10 years! we want to appeal and are research immigration lawyers but do you think there will be a case as he had overstayed? can i plead my case of needing to stay here and needing my husband to join me? If not, is there anywhere else we can immigrate to together where i could still work and enjoy economic well being? we have both worked so hard and have never and would never claim government benefits. do they usually overturn these decisions and what is the time limit?
Sorry for the lengthy email but am very upset and desperate to be with my husband.
any advice will be gratefully accepted

chibage · Post by **chibage** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:44 pm

Hi, im confused as to why your husband was refused under 3207a - thought that this was for deception in the current application ??? Did he lie in the interview ?? If they are refusing on the previous deception then he should be refused under 3207b or am i wrong?? I think you need proffessional legal advice. Good luck.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:54 pm

You can go to live in another EEA state - work there for a bit, apply for ur husband as someone exercising a treaty right, live there for a bit, and return to UK under Surinder Singh ruling, although having spent some time in Germany, I wouldn't come back here....

In this scenario EEA rules *should* override UK ones but whichever way be prepared for a long hard battle.

marita25 · Post by **marita25** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:41 pm

I read your post and can imagine what you are going through as my husband's visa was also initially refused then granted. Firstly Appeal the decision I think its 28days to appeal and at the same time you will have to request for a review from the Entry Clearance Manager by sending via DHL all the upto date documents and addressing to the ECM.In the review you are allowed to submit new evidence to counter what the original ECO refused you on. This will include points he/she stated on Finance - updated bankstatements and payslips
Accomodation - request your landlord write a letter to state he/she will allow or is already aware your husband will reside in the property once he settles in the UK, you may have to provide a 'fresher' tenancy agreement with upto 3 - 6 months left which shows accomodation is available
Relationship - provide upto date evidence of communication e.g emails, phone cards,phone bills and letter(s ) from your parents, sisters/brothers to state the character of your husband and how they have seen you become depressed from the time he left etc. Also include a letter from your doc if at all your separation has resulted in you being depressed etc.

Acknowledge the fact he broke immigration rules and apologise. I think that should be the first in your paragraph.
The main thing is to provide upto date evidence to counter the reasons for refusal.

Please also read my post I was exactly in the same boat only a few months ago so my heart goes out to you but you will have to be strong. This is my post , any questions please post reply.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... highlight=

zionkitten · Post by **zionkitten** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:36 pm

thank you so much for your advice. My husband did not lie in his interview, he was asked if he has ever been deported or asked to leave the UK and he thought that he had not, however, turns out when he was asked to claim asylum and it was refused and a letter was issued asking him to leave, by this time he had moved in with me out of the house he was placed in so we never got any letters from home office. We were advised by an expert that my husband needed to return to home country and apply which he did in april 08, however, we were advised to say that he had returned much earlier so that we would not aggravate the officals, i have since learnt from reading these helpful posts that there are concessions! Problem is now, if we tell the truth about when he left uk the home office could reject for deception, we can't 'win' i feel. How long did our husbands appeal take?

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:29 am

You can appeal to your hearts content he will not be allowed entry into the UK on a UKvisa for another ten years. He has not got a hope at appeal either.

From your posts it is obvious that he did try to deceive as you state you can not disclose the actual date he left the UK to UKBA. This means a false date was given in the application. UKBA probably either knew when he actually entered Moldova or better still made enquires to verify the information supplied. Soon as a false date was noted he was finished.

The other point you state in the original post that he /you were aware of the removal notice and decided to ignore it, being so very much in love. So he is lying about not knowing about the removal notice and also he did have the paperwork that you said he did not have in the second post! So you are lying too!

The whole situation looks to be fully deserving of the 10 year deception ban.

As for the Article 8 claim â€“ yeah right! You married a known illegal by using the church marriage route, avoiding the need to go for COA, thus avoiding disclosing the whereabouts of your partner to immigration. You do not have the right to enjoy life in the UK with your husband as you married knowing he had no immigration status in the UK.

So your choice is simple - if you want to be with your husband leave the UK!

Nothing you have said is deserving of any sympathy as it obvious from your posts and his behavior you have set out to deceive from the outset.

zionkitten · Post by **zionkitten** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:05 am

Thank you for your kind words frontier, talk about kicking someone when they are down. I think that is the problem with this country, upstanding UK citizens like myself have got no rights. My husband paid tax in this country for years, i didn't see the govenment opposing that though! That is why hundreds of thousands UK citizens are fleeing the Uk every year and with attitudes like yours i can see why.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:43 am

What's the story with the false visa - surely he must have known about that?

chibage · Post by **chibage** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:10 pm

zioncat, perhaps if your husband had come clean about his past with his bogus visa and told them the truth the ECO may have used discretion and issued him the visa. ITs probably the fact that he had a bad history then used deception in his new application that made him get refused??? Perhaps you may have to use Wanderers suggestion about settling in a different EU country?? Have you seeked legal advice. Frontier mole is probably right and he may sound harsh but sometimes its good to hear the truth.

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:12 pm

Up standing -

You harboured a known immigration offender, colluded in deception and expect to have the use of the law in the UK to gain rights for a person that certainly does not follow said law.

And the UK is to be grateful as he paid a bit of tax - yippee. I doubt he has even covered the costs of the immigration appeal never mind anything else. It is funny how what we do in the UK as an everyday event is somehow to be appreciated when an illegal does it. "He paid tax you know!"

I will point out to any immigration offender the blunt reality of what they have done. As for kicking while you are down, that is just fine and dandy, glad you got the message. Better still it sends out the message to others, use deception - pay the penalty.

Well I wish you luck and hope your relationship remains strong when your only option is to live in Moldova - wonderful eastern block country through and through!

I have stated on this forum before and will continue to do so - I believe in the rule of UK law. I will not put up with up with the "woe is me I / we got caught" people like you always bleat.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:37 am

zionkitten,

I'm not sure how this ban rule works, especially if you decide to appeal and take things further, but if you decide to leave the UK (i.e. when your appeals have been exhausted and there's no other options), you can consider moving to another EU/EEA country and your husband can join you there.

I think firstly, though, you should try appealing and see what the outcome is. Marita25's post is good advice, so do that first. You can even re-apply with more documentation, if you wanted.

If the decision is negative then your only other option would be to move to another EU/EEA state and use the European directive for him to join you (but you wouldn't have to move to Moldova anyway).

zionkitten · Post by **zionkitten** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:42 pm

Thank you Sakura and Marita25 for your advice. I have been in touch with an immigration lawyer today who has ran through our options. We will be together regardless if we get stay here or not so...On hindsight, we really should have consulted a lawyer before (it was a CAB advisor we told us to lie initally anyway! great advice!) but we were too young, immature and thought we're married, we love each other, we're good people, anyone can see that! but you live and learn. I am a true optimist so whatever happens, we will have a great life together! x

Twin · Post by **Twin** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:50 pm

zionkitten wrote:Thank you Sakura and Marita25 for your advice. I have been in touch with an immigration lawyer today who has ran through our options. We will be together regardless if we get stay here or not so...On hindsight, we really should have consulted a lawyer before (it was a CAB advisor we told us to lie initally anyway! great advice!) but we were too young, immature and thought we're married, we love each other, we're good people, anyone can see that! but you live and learn. I am a true optimist so whatever happens, we will have a great life together! x

Personally, I wouldn't take Frontier Mole's advise as gospel. This deception rule only came into force in April and hasn't had a fair run at the AIT. There are not many reported cases if any at all on the case of deception and the incredible 10 years ban. Although Frontier Mole is a pessimist, I fail to see it as all gloom and doom just as he has posted.

By the way, what did you lawyer say?

Yes, I would say you should appeal and tell the whole truth in court. I would rumage through the AIT and see of cases that befit yours and report accordingly. There really is no harm in appealing. I have heard of worst cases so please do not despair. Yes, it was wrong to have lied but tell me who is spotless! Even the holier than thou Frontier has some specks i'm sure.

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:26 am

Twin,

There you go again with your unrealistic sugar coated view of immigration. This individual has not got a hope, you are encouraging someone to waste their resources and time in trying to win something that can not be won. By their own admission they accepted they have lied / deceived in an attempt to get a visa.

I would be interested to find out even if you know what differentiates an AIT determination that can be relied on in court from ones that can't?? Rummaging, as you put it, for a case isnâ€™t going to help if it can not be submitted in court.

Zionkitten

Any immigration practitioner worth their salt knows this case and any further appeal is dead in the water. As for Twins little insight of the 10 year rule not being tested - well here is the difference between an immigration professional and some casual observer. The 10 year ban can not be tested by the AIT. The ban is a statutory imposition and is not within the AIT remit to question or mitigate. The only point that can be tested by the AIT is whither or not the correct immigration decision was made? In your case with the deception evidenced for the court it will not take much for them to say the decision was correct. The court does not then go on to consider was the 10 year ban reasonable. The ban is imposed as a secondary consequence of the use of deception.

Yes you have every right to appeal, however that is not the same as every appeal is right.

What did the lawyer say, let me guess - "It is an interesting case, UKBA have not actually specified the deception employed. Erm, perhaps this is something we can look at, hmm. Give me Â£XXX up front and I will see what I can do".
I hope that really was not the case, I hope they actually pointed out the lack of merit in the case and advised you to consider another option.

By all means carry on with the appeal. What the lawyer can do is file an appeal, examine / gather evidence, prepare an impressive court bundle, attend at court and manfully put your case across. It will not achieve the outcome you want, the case will still be dismissed. The whole endevour is nothing more than an elaborate piece of theater to give you some interim false hope and ensure his kids can still attend private school.

If you had any chance I would say so, no amount of appealing or letters to UKBA will achieve anything. Save your money and if you truly want to be together get a job in another EEA state and exercise your treaty rights to bring him into that country. Thereafter have a look at a case called "Surinder Singh" on how to bring him to the UK.

Link http://webdb.lse.ac.uk/gender/Casefinal ... 8&pageno=7

Twin · Post by **Twin** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:17 pm

Frontier Mole wrote:Twin,

There you go again with your unrealistic sugar coated view of immigration. This individual has not got a hope, you are encouraging someone to waste their resources and time in trying to win something that can not be won. By their own admission they accepted they have lied / deceived in an attempt to get a visa.

I would be interested to find out even if you know what differentiates an AIT determination that can be relied on in court from ones that can't?? Rummaging, as you put it, for a case isnâ€™t going to help if it can not be submitted in court.

Zionkitten

Any immigration practitioner worth their salt knows this case and any further appeal is dead in the water. As for Twins little insight of the 10 year rule not being tested - well here is the difference between an immigration professional and some casual observer. The 10 year ban can not be tested by the AIT. The ban is a statutory imposition and is not within the AIT remit to question or mitigate. The only point that can be tested by the AIT is whither or not the correct immigration decision was made? In your case with the deception evidenced for the court it will not take much for them to say the decision was correct. The court does not then go on to consider was the 10 year ban reasonable. The ban is imposed as a secondary consequence of the use of deception.

Yes you have every right to appeal, however that is not the same as every appeal is right.

What did the lawyer say, let me guess - "It is an interesting case, UKBA have not actually specified the deception employed. Erm, perhaps this is something we can look at, hmm. Give me Â£XXX up front and I will see what I can do".
I hope that really was not the case, I hope they actually pointed out the lack of merit in the case and advised you to consider another option.

By all means carry on with the appeal. What the lawyer can do is file an appeal, examine / gather evidence, prepare an impressive court bundle, attend at court and manfully put your case across. It will not achieve the outcome you want, the case will still be dismissed. The whole endevour is nothing more than an elaborate piece of theater to give you some interim false hope and ensure his kids can still attend private school.

If you had any chance I would say so, no amount of appealing or letters to UKBA will achieve anything. Save your money and if you truly want to be together get a job in another EEA state and exercise your treaty rights to bring him into that country. Thereafter have a look at a case called "Surinder Singh" on how to bring him to the UK.

Link http://webdb.lse.ac.uk/gender/Casefinal ... 8&pageno=7

There you go again taking your usual condescending seat, but then, we know it wouldn't be you if you didn't do that.

Anyway, the little observer in me is well aware that a 10 year ban decision cannot be overuled but provided the appellant can convince the judge that this was an error and explain the reasons and evidence for doing so, the judge might see things differently and put in good words. This might then enable the appellant to re-apply and the ECO would reconsider based on the judge's findings.

Personally, I wouldn't take Frontier Mole's so called "pragmatic" advise. There really is no harm in appealing. If the 10 years ban cannot be overuled, then there is still a chance on article 8 grounds(however dim some people choose to see it, I believe it's worth a try).

If you believe you can argue your case, then i'd say go for it and stop listening to some so called practitioner on here whom are yet to be verified, anyway.

Anyway, there are practitioners and there are lawyers.

chibage · Post by **chibage** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:46 pm

zionkitten perhaps you should try putting in a fresh application as the rules are changing effective 30 June so perhaps the ECO will issue based on discretion if your hubby comes clean .good luck.

Spark · Post by **Spark** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:21 am

Frontier Mole wrote:Up standing -
You harboured a known immigration offender, colluded in deception and expect to have the use of the law in the UK to gain rights for a person that certainly does not follow said law.

And the UK is to be grateful as he paid a bit of tax - yippee. I doubt he has even covered the costs of the immigration appeal never mind anything else. It is funny how what we do in the UK as an everyday event is somehow to be appreciated when an illegal does it. "He paid tax you know!"

I will point out to any immigration offender the blunt reality of what they have done. As for kicking while you are down, that is just fine and dandy, glad you got the message. Better still it sends out the message to others, use deception - pay the penalty.

Well I wish you luck and hope your relationship remains strong when your only option is to live in Moldova - wonderful eastern block country through and through!

I have stated on this forum before and will continue to do so - I believe in the rule of UK law. I will not put up with up with the "woe is me I / we got caught" people like you always bleat.

I completely agree, people like this ruin it for the majority who go through the legal means, making the procedures even more complicated and expensive.

In many ways, I back the government on this one, somebody who marries an illegal alien should not get an easy ride.

zionkitten · Post by **zionkitten** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:23 am

Well am sorry for 'ruining it for everyone else' as you say, but you can't help who you fall in love with now can you...I have an excellent lawyer who has been honest with us. Our case is not clear cut, we have a small chance of winning however, today i have been offered a great job abroad so off i go! My husband will join me asap and we can be together. simple. That is all we wanted in the first place. Thank you all for your advice.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:01 pm

zionkitten wrote:Well am sorry for 'ruining it for everyone else' as you say, but you can't help who you fall in love with now can you...I have an excellent lawyer who has been honest with us. Our case is not clear cut, we have a small chance of winning however, today i have been offered a great job abroad so off i go! My husband will join me asap and we can be together. simple. That is all we wanted in the first place. Thank you all for your advice.

Congrats on the job - which country is it? Do you know about the immigration process there? (If not and it is an EU/EEA country, you can try searching for related posts under the other European countries link).

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:28 pm

Be interesting to know where the convenient new job is, hopefully for the OP one of the Eastern States, more amenable to their neighbours countrymen.

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Urgent help required, spousal visa rejected

Urgent help required, spousal visa rejected

Spousal Visa Initial Refusal