Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

[markem]

Surely, on average, to make 'some' progress on say half-a-dozen applications a day per person working, so that's 30 per week, given say 20% staff on holiday at any one time (that leaves 49), it wouldn't be unreasonable for 'some' progress to be made on fifteen hundred or so applications per week in total? That's over 6k applications a month.

How many applications are there in the system, 16k according to this article. And that's primarily due to the missing ceremony last week, usually it's 12.5k in the system. So they easily should be able to cycle at least once through all the applications every quarter and have a nice life at the same time.

You're trying to calculate their capacity to get through applications. I've calculated based on actual productivity last year.

In 2018 there were 10,158 decisions (accepted + refused made). That's 166 decisions for each of the 61 staff. Or lets say 80% of the team are decision makers (the rest are managers or administrators) then its 195 each per year.

Lets say 200 active work days in a year (once you take out public holidays, annual leave, a few days of sick leave, and training).

So a decision takes, on average, around 7 or 8 hours. Does that sound reasonable? Forget waiting time, this is just active time reading the application and supporting documents, ticking boxes, running checks, writing letters, and entering information into their systems. Looking at the process from the outside, I would guess there is 20% to 30% of waste in the system - and I'd also guess there has been zero improvement in productivity in the last 10 years.

[Stanina]

...How many applications are there in the system, 16k according to this article. And that's primarily due to the missing ceremony last week, usually it's 12.5k in the system. So they easily should be able to cycle at least once through all the applications every quarter and have a nice life at the same time.

...
So a decision takes, on average, around 7 or 8 hours. Does that sound reasonable? Forget waiting time, this is just active time reading the application and supporting documents, ticking boxes, running checks, writing letters, and entering information into their systems. Looking at the process from the outside, I would guess there is 20% to 30% of waste in the system - and I'd also guess there has been zero improvement in productivity in the last 10 years.

It looks like they are hiring +90 people for Passport office at least
Why same can't be done for citizenship applications

[saleamcrown]

What the next
Because the minister is relax and dont do nothing and all TDs silent

[Bealtaine]

Sorry in advance if this creates a topic within a topic, but it is still related to the ruling:

There were three arguments presented at today's Court of Appeal hearing. To paraphrase:

1. Jones (appellant): Spent 100 days out of Ireland in the year before he applied, thinks this is reasonable, and that the Minister should apply discretion and give him citizenship.
2. Minister: Has been applying discretion to time out of Ireland (6 weeks or 42 days), wants to continue doing this, and thinks Jones' 100 days is too long.
3. High Court Judge: Doesn't think the law allows the Minister any discretion and that continuous residence means no time out of Ireland at all.

I disagree with Jones. 100 days just seems to long to me. UK, as an example, allows up to 90 days.

I therefore agree with the Minister that 100 days is too long. However, rather than discretion, I'd prefer to see a clear policy or regulation so it's more black and white.

I think the Judge was pedantic and narrow in defining continuous. However, in comparison to other countries' citizenship policies and processes, Ireland is so opaque and vague that it needs an overhaul and for these type of requirements to be written down. It would make it a lot easier for applicants if there were clear definitions of processes and requirements (... and I think it would make it easier for INIS as well). However, I would have preferred this debate didn't happen in the middle of my application!

My sentiments exactly! He knew what the requirements were and could’ve/should’ve minimised the travelling to 6 weeks! He applied through solicitors I’m guessing (unsure if they represented him after his rejection)- if this is the case, should they not have advised him of the same?
Of course, it could’ve happened before/after but heck.. it’s happening now!

[quote=Duquesne post_id=<a href="tel:1834664">1834664</a> time=<a href="tel:1570544269">1570544269</a> user_id=207812]
Surely, on average, to make 'some' progress on say half-a-dozen applications a day per person working, so that's 30 per week, given say 20% staff on holiday at any one time (that leaves 49), it wouldn't be unreasonable for 'some' progress to be made on fifteen hundred or so applications per week in total? That's over 6k applications a month.

How many applications are there in the system, 16k according to this article. And that's primarily due to the missing ceremony last week, usually it's 12.5k in the system. So they easily should be able to cycle at least once through all the applications every quarter and have a nice life at the same time.

You're trying to calculate their capacity to get through applications. I've calculated based on actual productivity last year.

In 2018 there were 10,158 decisions (accepted + refused made). That's 166 decisions for each of the 61 staff. Or lets say 80% of the team are decision makers (the rest are managers or administrators) then its 195 each per year.

Lets say 200 active work days in a year (once you take out public holidays, annual leave, a few days of sick leave, and training).

So a decision takes, on average, around 7 or 8 hours. Does that sound reasonable? Forget waiting time, this is just active time reading the application and supporting documents, ticking boxes, running checks, writing letters, and entering information into their systems. Looking at the process from the outside, I would guess there is 20% to 30% of waste in the system - and I'd also guess there has been zero improvement in productivity in the last 10 years.
[/quote]

My goodness! This is one of the reasons as to why I always look forward to your posts! True, that!

[quote=markem post_id=<a href="tel:1834792">1834792</a> time=<a href="tel:1570566198">1570566198</a> user_id=193455]
[quote=Duquesne post_id=<a href="tel:1834664">1834664</a> time=<a href="tel:1570544269">1570544269</a> user_id=207812]
...How many applications are there in the system, 16k according to this article. And that's primarily due to the missing ceremony last week, usually it's 12.5k in the system. So they easily should be able to cycle at least once through all the applications every quarter and have a nice life at the same time.

...
So a decision takes, on average, around 7 or 8 hours. Does that sound reasonable? Forget waiting time, this is just active time reading the application and supporting documents, ticking boxes, running checks, writing letters, and entering information into their systems. Looking at the process from the outside, I would guess there is 20% to 30% of waste in the system - and I'd also guess there has been zero improvement in productivity in the last 10 years.
[/quote]

It looks like they are hiring +90 people for Passport office at least
Why same can't be done for citizenship applications
[/quote]

Thank you for sharing that link. It does state though that they are looking for people to handle the citizenship/foreign births register application from start to the issue of the passport too.

What the next
Because the minister is relax and dont do nothing and all TDs silent

Legislature has to start regardless of anything- yes the judges can overrule the initial judgement re ‘continuous’ residence. Only continuous was defined and not residence- it was seen as a word vs a phrase.
They do need to go ahead and get that bill in and change the legislature regardless as there needs to be clarity! Our forms that we filled asked if we were out of the state for 6 weeks- not if we had travelled for a day at all. I don’t see how this can therefore be interpreted the way it was but there should be no loopholes/ambiguity anymore. Can’t believe this is happening in a first world country and no, it isn’t ‘grand’.

[Keggers]

My sentiments exactly! He knew what the requirements were and could’ve/should’ve minimised the travelling to 6 weeks! He applied through solicitors I’m guessing (unsure if they represented him after his rejection)- if this is the case, should they not have advised him of the same?
Of course, it could’ve happened before/after but heck.. it’s happening now!

The six weeks doesn't work in the modern business world, in which international business travel is expected and required, and is an everyday part of working. If you take 2 weeks off the 6 for a summer holiday, you are left with four weeks, or 28 days. I work in an Irish HQ'd business with operations around Europe, and am regularly required to travel on business, and can easily pass this figure just to do my job. This isn't holidays, or visiting family, or anything that I have a choice about. And me being in Germany or London for meetings doesn't in anyway make Ireland not my home and place of residence. I've been here 15 years, but for me its a matter of luck on my need for business travel in any particular year as to whether I will ever be able to apply for citizenship as long as the 6 week rule stays in place. Unless the policy is that Ireland only wants immigrants to work in 100% domestically focused businesses, or people with no jobs and no need for business travel, then the six week rule needs to be changed (or adjusted to account for business travel).

[Bealtaine]

I appreciate where you’re coming from and thus the discretion of the minister for cases where one travels for business.
This guy travelled for 3 days out of 100 days for business.
The Judge mentioned that the minister does not have discretionary powers but on what basis was that said? Where does it mention in the law that s/he doesn’t? When one reads ‘the written word’, one has to apply context and understanding in that you cannot break up part of a sentence/phrase - everything has to fit together in unison and harmony.

[Keggers]

Fair point - had for some reason thought that he had been travelling primarily on business, same as myself, but at 97 days holidays then I see your point. I do still think a clearer distinction / exception needs to be made for reasonable business travel though. Even a clear, black and white rule on what counts as a day outside the country would be of help (eg. is the day you leave counted, the day you get back,etc. - from reading on here this all depends on which team processes your application and their mood on the day).

[markem]

... a clear, black and white rule on what counts as a day outside the country would be of help (eg. is the day you leave counted, the day you get back,etc... )

It is unbelievable that simple things like this are not written down on the application form or their website. If just 1% of applicants need to ask them this question that's 100+ phone calls or emails per year that could be avoided.

This is exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said...

...I would guess there is 20% to 30% of waste in the system.

[zaza7625]

I wonder what will be next for those people who already awaiting approvals after second stage letter. Will they be all refused or other decision will be reached. Even those application who are straightforward and does not need plenty checks. For example kids application or applications which has have been stepped over second stage?

[markem]

I wonder what will be next for those people who already awaiting approvals after second stage letter. Will they be all refused or other decision will be reached. Even those application who are straightforward and does not need plenty checks. For example kids application or applications which has have been stepped over second stage?

Section 16 of the Act gives the Minister power to dispense with conditions of naturalisation in certain cases (e.g. Irish associations). It is possible that they could go ahead with those cases. I don't think they will though, as it would be messy to organise and exercising discretion is part of the issue in the first place and could create an industry of appeals.

My guess is that everything will continue to be on hold until either:
a) the Court of Appeal will agree with the High Court, the Minister will get the law changed, and we'll be back to business as usual; or
b) the Court of Appeal will disagree with the High Court, and we'll be back to business as usual.

[markem]

The Judge mentioned that the minister does not have discretionary powers but on what basis was that said? Where does it mention in the law that s/he doesn’t?

Careful reading of Section 15...

Upon receipt of an application for a certificate of naturalisation, the Minister may, in his absolute discretion, grant the application, if satisfied that the applicant...

... has had a period of one year's continuous residence in the State immediately before the date of the application and, during the eight years immediately preceding that period, has had a total residence in the State amounting to four years.

It's that little yellow "if"... he only has discretion if the applicant had a year's continuous residence. The judge defines continuous in very narrow sense... concluding that the Minister doesn't have discretion.

[botabo]

Sorry for being boring and annoying...
For those who are just waiting for letter of ceremony, when is the next date for a possible and hopeful update? Or there is no date at all, we keep just waiting?
Thank you.

[saleamcrown]

There’s nothing in their schedule next week about citizenship  . Do what will happen if the minister still sleep

[markem]

For those who are just waiting for letter of ceremony, when is the next date for a possible and hopeful update? Or there is no date at all, we keep just waiting?

We have to wait until there is a ruling from the Court of Appeal. That could be a week, two weeks or a month... my guess is that the public attention will mean it will be out within a couple of weeks. What happens after that depends on the ruling...

My guess is that everything will continue to be on hold until either:
a) the Court of Appeal will agree with the High Court, the Minister will get the law changed, and we'll be back to business as usual; or
b) the Court of Appeal will disagree with the High Court, and we'll be back to business as usual.

Scenario a) will take at least a couple of weeks longer for a ceremony than scenario b).

[markem]

There’s nothing in their schedule next week about citizenship  . Do what will happen if the minister still sleep

What schedule? If you're talking about the Court of Appeal their ruling could be issued in writing. If you're talking about the Oireachtas then they won't schedule anything until the ruling. It needs to be resolved in the courts before the law can be changed.

[Ali112]

Will all the minor (children) their cases would be put on hold ?? As they are excempted from oath ceremony!
I love to know if this has impacted minor applications ?

[littlerr]

Will all the minor (children) their cases would be put on hold ?? As they are excempted from oath ceremony!
I love to know if this has impacted minor applications ?

The court ruling has nothing to do with the ceremony. The continuous residency requirement applies to all naturalisation applications. The minister cannot now legally grant any approval if the person is out of the state for 1 second.
And because it is virtually impossible for them to know who had been out, they will not send out any approval at all.

[Ali112]

Well it’s a joke ! And I can fully understand and feel the pain of many who are waiting !

In my case my son could get the Irish passport directly but I was just a month short on my 3 yrs stamp which make him no eligible for passport and his mother was literally may be days short (as EU citizen) but ow we both are naturalized 2016/17 and technically they should bring legislation to scrap this lengthy process if parents get Naturalisation and if child is born here they should automatically give them passport.

I work in a well known global company and my colleague laugh at how the law in one of the developed country is !!

Any way I hope court have ruling as soon as possible and people should be out of limbo situation

[aneelrahim]

'It's like I'm in a prison': Fears citizenship applications are facing years-long backlogs

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-a ... 1-Oct2019/

[mrrobot]

'It's like I'm in a prison': Fears citizenship applications are facing years-long backlogs

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-a ... 1-Oct2019/

Saying that it’s like a prison is just so disrespectful to the whole country. Shame on this person. You live here voluntarily and no one owns you anything. Citizenship is just a great perk to have, that it.

[Alixlboy]

If they don't let you go anywhere one year prior to lodging the application, what else would you call it? You cannot let them own you and stop you from travelling around the world, just for the sake of citizenship. Even the people who have been waiting for a long time for this, have fears that they might miss a post even if they go to see their parents etc. Plus they cannot go for a longer period either, as they don't know what impact that might have on their already delayed approvals.
I agree with the person. Call it a sweet prison, but still it is a prison.
The whole system needs to be revamped.

[iceice304]

Totally disagreed.
Shame actually lies with this system. Making a decision to live and work in any country is person’s own choice. But that person needs to follow the rules of the newly adopted country. if there are any flaws in the rules or system the blame should not be on that person of leaving his/her own country and deciding to live here.
There is a major flaw in the current rules/system of citizenship department and this is very much evident. It’s totally bizarre to start blaming people of why are they living in this country rather than making efforts to rectify these problems/flaws.

[Obie]

I am not in favour of the delays or the system in general, however I do not agree with the prison statement.

That person is not in a prison. People who are in prison do not have the right to get out. He has the right to get out of the state if he or she wishes. The applicant's passport is mostly returned within weeks. rather than the duration of the application. Therefore he is not in a prison. He never came in to the state with an Irish passport, he certainly is not precluded from leaving without one.

[iceice304]

There is a place of idioms and non-categorical meaning in the English Language. We know the literal meaning of Prison but here the reference of prison was something else. Totally agreed with the article.

[Stanina]

'It's like I'm in a prison': Fears citizenship applications are facing years-long backlogs

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-a ... 1-Oct2019/

Saying that it’s like a prison is just so disrespectful to the whole country. Shame on this person. You live here voluntarily and no one owns you anything. Citizenship is just a great perk to have, that it.

I agree. There were already a lot of angry comments there.
I like that the issue receives coverage by the media though.