Eurostar, travelling to France without Schengen visa

[Hexy]

The french also have exit checks at the Eurostar terminal in Paris. So even if you get in, there may be problems when you leave.

Isn't it the UK check on exit from country? I tend to remember that when I took Eurostar I had the UK on the French side and the French on the UK side. Same for when I flew in and out of Canada to US. Of course I could be mistaken... wouldnt be a first time.

[Christophe]

The french also have exit checks at the Eurostar terminal in Paris. So even if you get in, there may be problems when you leave.

Isn't it the UK check on exit from country? I tend to remember that when I took Eurostar I had the UK on the French side and the French on the UK side. Same for when I flew in and out of Canada to US. Of course I could be mistaken... wouldnt be a first time.

There are generally no passport checks when getting off the Eurostar train. All checks happen before boarding. So, the sequence for a trip from, say, London to Paris is:

UK exit passport check (if the desks are staffed) at St Pancras — Schengen entry passport check at St Pancras — Board train at St Pancras — Leave train at Gare du Nord.

Coming back, it's:

Schengen exit passport check at Gare du Nord — UK entry passport check at Gare du Nord — Board train at Gare du Nord — Leave train at St Pancras.

[mym]

Basically, the Dutch will no longer issue any Schengen visa to non-EU family members with residence permits when travelling with their EU spouse or family member. I think it's a smart thing, because of all the time they're saving. If only other countries could realise the savings in workload.

Warning to any casual reader: REMEMBER spouses/children of British nationals who do not hold a Residence Card 'as a Family Member of an EEA National' will need a visa. IE everyone with FLR or ILR.

As the embassy website says: "EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC".

[86ti]

Basically, the Dutch will no longer issue any Schengen visa to non-EU family members with residence permits when travelling with their EU spouse or family member. I think it's a smart thing, because of all the time they're saving. If only other countries could realise the savings in workload.

Warning to any casual reader: REMEMBER spouses/children of British nationals who do not hold a Residence Card 'as a Family Member of an EEA National' will need a visa. IE everyone with FLR or ILR.

As the embassy website says: "EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC".

This is similar to what other embassy web sites say. British nationals not exercising EU treaty rights unfortunately lose out here. But they are still Union citizens despite what the author of the Dutch embassy's page thinks.

[stmellon]

Warning to any casual reader: REMEMBER spouses/children of British nationals who do not hold a Residence Card 'as a Family Member of an EEA National' will need a visa. IE everyone with FLR or ILR.

I don't understand this. What is the difference between ILR and a Residence Card?

As the embassy website says: "EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC".

Utter rubbish!

[86ti]

Warning to any casual reader: REMEMBER spouses/children of British nationals who do not hold a Residence Card 'as a Family Member of an EEA National' will need a visa. IE everyone with FLR or ILR.

I don't understand this. What is the difference between ILR and a Residence Card?

From what I understand British law=ILR, EU law=PR and Residence Card.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

A Residence Card is a very specific type of thing issued to family members of EU citizens. It is issued at no cost and is typically valid for 5 years. Residence Cards are issued by each member state in the EU.

ILR is one of many kinds of UK-issued residence permits. You must pay for it (amoung other things).

When is the Eurostar booking for? I would urge you to go for the train. If you travel with your marriage certificate, go early, and are firm, they are very unlikely to turn you away. I would tend to ignore what the french embassy says as they do not know much and their job is to issue as many visas as possible, but they have no responsibility for letting you in. See also the Schengen Handbook at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/other-schengen/

[mym]

I don't understand this. What is the difference between ILR and a Residence Card?

UK law and EU Law (or rather the UK implementation of the Directive).

As the embassy website says: "EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC".

Utter rubbish!

Yes the "not considered Union citizens" bit is rubbish, but what they meant is "not considered Union citizens for the purposes of the Directive." Which is not rubbish, it's the truth. That's why UK citizens with non-EU family members cannot get a Residence card, and why the FLR/ILR they have to pay through the nose to get does not count as a Residence Card.

[stmellon]

Yes the "not considered Union citizens" bit is rubbish, but what they meant is "not considered Union citizens for the purposes of the Directive." Which is not rubbish, it's the truth. That's why UK citizens with non-EU family members cannot get a Residence card, and why the FLR/ILR they have to pay through the nose to get does not count as a Residence Card.

So freedom of movement only applies to those already using it?
A Spaniard living in France would have more EU rights than a fellow Spaniard who had lived all his life in Spain? Why/ how would that be the case?

[mym]

So freedom of movement only applies to those already using it?

The rights in the Directive apply to those exercising treaty rights in regard to moving between member states, you are not (by definition) exercising those treaty rights if you are living in your own state (unless you move back to it, having been established in another) - so your own national laws apply.

[stmellon]

... what they meant is "not considered Union citizens for the purposes of the Directive." Which is not rubbish, it's the truth.

Is that a fact?

Article 2 - Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive:
1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 048:EN:PDF

I think that you may be confusing freedom of movement with freedom of residence

[mym]

... what they meant is "not considered Union citizens for the purposes of the Directive." Which is not rubbish, it's the truth.

Is that a fact?

Article 2 - Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive:
1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State

I think that you may be confusing freedom of movement with freedom of residence

Not really. Read a bit further.

Article 2 - Definitions

3) "Host Member State" means the Member State to which a Union citizen moves in order to exercise his/her right of free movement and residence.

Article 3
Beneficiaries
1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members... who accompany or join them.

The Directive does NOT apply to Union citizens who reside in the Member State of which they are a national - in other words they are effectively not considered Union citizens for the purposes of the Directive.

Which is why we have to put up with legal niceties like Regulation 9 of the UK's implementation of the Directive [The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006] and the whole business of Surinder Singh cases.

[bdb303]

Update. I have received the following from Solvit regarding the 2004/38/EC directive and whether France allows entry without Schengen visas for spouses of EU citizens. Unfortunately it does not help much as they won't give written confirmation...

Our French colleague has now finally been able to reach the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to ask the person responsable for Embassy-regulations about your case. Apparently, they have told him that France applies the directive you mentioned (2004/38/EC) for spouses of EU citizens without visa. This means your wife would not need a visa at all to travel with you to France. Our colleague has unfortunately not received a written statement hereof and has so far not been able to reach the Embassy.

I am not sure if this message entirely solves your problem, because we have not received a written statement. It is now your decision whether you want to travel to France without a visa or wait for a decision on your visa request. As the Solvit-system depends on informal mediation, I am afraid we cannot do much more for you at the moment.

[stmellon]

Article 3
Beneficiaries
1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members... who accompany or join them.[/i]

The Directive does NOT apply to Union citizens who reside in the Member State of which they are a national - in other words they are effectively not considered Union citizens for the purposes of the Directive.

How did you reach that conclusion? It states move to OR reside in, so if a citizen - even one residing in their birth country all their life - moves to France then the Directive should be applied. As far as I can make out, "move to" means "cross the border in to" and "reside in" means to remain in the country for at least one night.

[charles4u]

I think this is the Issue abt this discussion.

First any EU citizen as the right to visit and work freely in any EU country as an EU citizen and same applies to there family members.

When it comes to staying more than 3 months then u have to follow the country's rules which are now a bit different from EU law, First if staying beyong 3 months then u have to get a residence and after-on if u wanna do anything u have to get the necessary papers from the country the Union is residing.

We all know every country as his own power mostly mostly UK who thinks they r much better or above laws. I heard they now issue a FAMILY RESIDENCE CARD for a non-eu family member residing in UK.
well I also heard Spain rejected the victim visiting with that CARD.

I guess its the same reason ..UK dont accept other EU FAMILY RESIDENCE CARD as visa-free.....so why should any other EU accept theirs as visa-free.
I have seen that almost all the EU countries visa regulations and rules saying they now accept a FAMILY RESIDENCE CARD as equivalent to visa if issued from any EU country BUT not UK.


Even in the EU law says they dont allow UK RESIDENCE CARD as visa-free and also the UK citizens cant travel with there IDs to any EU country becuase UK is not fully parcitipating in the EU LAW

[mym]

How did you reach that conclusion? It states move to OR reside in, so if a citizen - even one residing in their birth country all their life - moves to France then the Directive should be applied.

You are confused. We are talking about why the non EEA family members of UK citizens do not get a Residence Card under the EU Directive.

The Border Force Operations Manual sets out the reasons for this in concise terms.

"A British national cannot exercise a Treaty right in the UK because by definition a Treaty right is something that is exercised by an EU national when in another Member State. A British national, and his third country national family members, can only benefit from free movement rights under the precedent set in the ECJ case of Surinder Singh."

[willsk22]

Just to add- not a boast....

when my wife 1st came to UK on 2yr spouse visa from russia, i planned a surprise trip to Paris. didn`t even research about Schengen and only heard from a mate at work about it! By this time there was no time for visa app and just chanced it on the friday evening.

french ferry port workers were on strike and ferries were getting cancelled etc (heard on radio on way to Dover!) pressed on and presented my UK passport and her Russian (with UK spouse visa) to customs lady @ Dover. with t5ickets etc (P& O) ....as we were checking in (with NO probs) our ferry was cancelled and were offered to change to seafrance said, yes.... drove out of port and back into arrivals (seafrance) through UK customs. Queued at departures/customs handed over docs NO problems again onto ferry, off at calais, and off to Paris collecting lots of Brownie points from the wife on route!!

The only thing i can think is that BOTH customs people didn`t know requirements or didn`t care as the french would get us on the other side OR because i was in uniform (British soldier- just finished duty before mad dash to port....)

make of that what you will- it ain`t over til the fat lady sings... or says NO!!!!