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Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

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Midnightly
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Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:17 am

Good morning all,

In short, my partner has recently had a visa application refused on the following grounds:

Eligibility relationship requirement - Lack of proof of a genuine and subsisting relationship: We declared we communicate every day using a software, we did not give any evidence other than a written declaration.

Eligibility financial requirement - Lack of proof of salary going specifically into my bank account: I provided all manners of proof except printed bank statements to supplement my payslips. They said they didn't request the missing bank statements due to other parts of the eligibility criteria not being met.

Eligibility English Language Requirement: She's Russian and hasn't taken a test. We didn't realise this was a requirement as we followed the downloaded checklist and this isn't mentioned as a requirement here, it probably is elsewhere and we were a bit naive.

So, our question is, if we can provide chat logs (in excess of over 100,000 messages and 400 voice calls over a year and half), pictures together, obtain my bank statements proving income into my account and get her to pass an English language test, is it recommended to simply bite the monetary option and reapply or take the option of appealing which I read can potentially take over a year?

Are there any negative consequences of having a refusal if we address the reasons for refusal in a subsequent application as well as updating the evidence we had already provided?

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by CR001 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:28 am

Eligibility relationship requirement - Lack of proof of a genuine and subsisting relationship: We declared we communicate every day using a software, we did not give any evidence other than a written declaration.
It is mandatory to submit evidence of subsisting relationship and communication. A simple declaration saying you communicate is irrelevant and would be ignored.
Eligibility financial requirement - Lack of proof of salary going specifically into my bank account: I provided all manners of proof except printed bank statements to supplement my payslips. They said they didn't request the missing bank statements due to other parts of the eligibility criteria not being met.
Appendix 1.7 and the HO official website states very clearly that bank statements are mandatory. You should always read the guidance and not only follow checklists, which are often not 100% accurate.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... -ext_1.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/proof-income
What proof you need to give
You’ll need to provide proof of your income with your application. If you or your partner are employed, you could include:

bank statements showing you or your partner’s income
6 months of payslips
a letter from an employer, dated and on headed paper
Eligibility English Language Requirement: She's Russian and hasn't taken a test. We didn't realise this was a requirement as we followed the downloaded checklist and this isn't mentioned as a requirement here, it probably is elsewhere and we were a bit naive.
Also a mandatory requirement unless under 18 or over 65 or from an exempt country. Russia is not an exempt country.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 4.0ext.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/knowledge-of-english
Knowledge of English
You may need to prove your knowledge of the English language when you apply.

You can prove it with an academic qualification, or by taking a test.

You do not need to prove it if you’re applying as a:

child
adult coming to be cared for by a relative
Academic qualifications
You can prove your knowledge of English if both:

you have a degree or academic qualification that was taught or researched in English
your qualification is recognised by UK NARIC as being equivalent to a UK bachelor’s degree or higher
You’ll need to provide a certificate from UK NARIC confirming this when you apply.

Take an approved English language test
You can prove your knowledge of English by passing an approved English language test with at least a CEFR level A1 in speaking and listening.
So, our question is, if we can provide chat logs (in excess of over 100,000 messages and 400 voice calls over a year and half), pictures together, obtain my bank statements proving income into my account and get her to pass an English language test, is it recommended to simply bite the monetary option and reapply or take the option of appealing which I read can potentially take over a year?
An appeal is unlikely to succeed as the application failed on 3 of the mandatory factors. It is unclear how you missed these requirements when you would have had to apply from the link I posted above. Reapplying with all the correct paperwork will likely be the better option.
Are there any negative consequences of having a refusal if we address the reasons for refusal in a subsequent application as well as updating the evidence we had already provided?
No issue re a refusal.

Have you and your partner met in person??
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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:40 am

Good morning and many thanks for your time in replying, I can feel your anguish when you say it is unclear how we missed the requirements, I felt stunned and frankly, stupid when we saw the letter!

I think we were over-confident, naive and assumed that we did enough or that other factors (such as my name on every payslip) would cover it and upon reading the letter, We have no arguments with the decision, we acknowledge we didn't do enough.

Yes we have met in person and have spent approximately 17 weeks together in person over 18 months.

Many thanks in confirming a reapplication shouldn't be negatively influenced by a refusal, provided we actually supply evidence. Sometimes the internet is very unclear..

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by CR001 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:44 am

Also note that you will need to provide some evidence of wedding plans for the fiance visa in addition to the other issues.

You should also include evidence of the time spent together physically, ie. photos which are dated, your air tickets etc.
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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:50 am

We were thinking of getting the 2 people who we'd plan to be our witnesses to write a statement. They have also met her. This coupled with our proof of discussions on the subject matter that I can find in our chat logs should hopefully be enough, or would something more official be needed?

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by CR001 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:53 am

We were thinking of getting the 2 people who we'd plan to be our witnesses to write a statement.
Not sufficient and will likely also be ignored. Remember that anyone can write anything for whatever reason. You need evidence of venue enquiries, Registry Office enquiries, receipt for engagement ring etc etc.
This coupled with our proof of discussions on the subject matter that I can find in our chat logs should hopefully be enough, or would something more official be needed?
See above. Remember you are applying for a visa that will allow her to marry in the UK once you have the approval from HO after giving notice at the Registry office and then switch to a spouse visa. To prove you are intending to marry, you need to provide evidence.
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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:05 am

CR001 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:53 am
We were thinking of getting the 2 people who we'd plan to be our witnesses to write a statement.
Not sufficient and will likely also be ignored. Remember that anyone can write anything for whatever reason. You need evidence of venue enquiries, Registry Office enquiries, receipt for engagement ring etc etc.
This coupled with our proof of discussions on the subject matter that I can find in our chat logs should hopefully be enough, or would something more official be needed?
See above. Remember you are applying for a visa that will allow her to marry in the UK once you have the approval from HO after giving notice at the Registry office and then switch to a spouse visa. To prove you are intending to marry, you need to provide evidence.
Okay, we have time on our side as she is only doing an IELTS this afternoon and not expecting results until late next week as well as waiting for her passport to be returned. Seems a bit convoluted in enquiring to a registry office when we can't exactly get a date due to a visa wait and she's not in the country, unless I can do this bit on my own, but we will look into it and get everything we can this time around!

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:12 am

Midnightly wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:05 am
CR001 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:53 am
We were thinking of getting the 2 people who we'd plan to be our witnesses to write a statement.
Not sufficient and will likely also be ignored. Remember that anyone can write anything for whatever reason. You need evidence of venue enquiries, Registry Office enquiries, receipt for engagement ring etc etc.
This coupled with our proof of discussions on the subject matter that I can find in our chat logs should hopefully be enough, or would something more official be needed?
See above. Remember you are applying for a visa that will allow her to marry in the UK once you have the approval from HO after giving notice at the Registry office and then switch to a spouse visa. To prove you are intending to marry, you need to provide evidence.
Okay, we have time on our side as she is only doing an IELTS this afternoon and not expecting results until late next week as well as waiting for her passport to be returned. Seems a bit convoluted in enquiring to a registry office when we can't exactly get a date due to a visa wait and she's not in the country, unless I can do this bit on my own, but we will look into it and get everything we can this time around!
Guess I follow this one.

https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-part ... ive-notice

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by CR001 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:29 am

You cannot give notice, but you can make email enquiries etc and include the emails as evidence.
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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:34 am

CR001 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:29 am
You cannot give notice, but you can make email enquiries etc and include the emails as evidence.
Thank you, yes I came to this conclusion as well.

I think I know where I stand now and will pursue everything above, you have been a wonderful and clear help, thank you again for your time in clearing up my concerns and questions.

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by CR001 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:53 am

You're welcome and feel free to continue asking any questions in this topic if you have any while you plan and go through the process again.
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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by verbina » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:54 pm

I am from Russia myself, so feel free to ask if you have any further questions.

There is no point in appealing- you screwed up, so put it to experience. Your refusal won't matter at all in your new application!

You have to go above and beyond with your evidence!!! As many photographs together and screenshots of your chats and calls- absolutely! Even if you think it's superfluous, still submit it!

Bank statements and Language test- make sure its the latest 6 consecutive months statements officially printed out by your bank or stamped at your branch! Printed copies from internet banking won't be valid.

English language test has expiry date (not sure how long, but worth checking). Also, it has to be taken at a UKVI approved centre to be recognised.

Evidence of you intending to marry or otherwise live together ever after.

Rememeber as much of evidence on everything! My application was about a kg of screenshots from chats and social media interactions.

Good luck!!
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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by AmazonianX » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:12 pm

Midnightly wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:05 am
CR001 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:53 am
We were thinking of getting the 2 people who we'd plan to be our witnesses to write a statement.
Not sufficient and will likely also be ignored. Remember that anyone can write anything for whatever reason. You need evidence of venue enquiries, Registry Office enquiries, receipt for engagement ring etc etc.
This coupled with our proof of discussions on the subject matter that I can find in our chat logs should hopefully be enough, or would something more official be needed?
See above. Remember you are applying for a visa that will allow her to marry in the UK once you have the approval from HO after giving notice at the Registry office and then switch to a spouse visa. To prove you are intending to marry, you need to provide evidence.
Okay, we have time on our side as she is only doing an IELTS this afternoon and not expecting results until late next week as well as waiting for her passport to be returned. Seems a bit convoluted in enquiring to a registry office when we can't exactly get a date due to a visa wait and she's not in the country, unless I can do this bit on my own, but we will look into it and get everything we can this time around!
Confirm its UKVI English Test of 2years validity and the certificate that will bear a Unique Electronic number for HO's check.

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:24 am

One last one, would it be advisable to get a fresh tuberculosis test done as the last one was 3-4 months ago now?

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Zerubbabel » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:07 am

Midnightly wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:24 am
One last one, would it be advisable to get a fresh tuberculosis test done as the last one was 3-4 months ago now?
The certificate for TB is good for 6 months from the date of x-ray.

If you think it will be expired by the time your new application is ready, then do a new one. If you are going to apply in the next few days, no need for a new test.

https://www.gov.uk/tb-test-visa

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by AmazonianX » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:24 am

TB test certificate has a validity of 6months. So depends on how soon you interested to submit application, if the previous TB certificate will be valid at the time of application submission you don't necessarily have to get a new one done.

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:29 am

Thank you both, I just don't want the HO to return and say the TB certificate expiring between application and decision results in another refusal

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Zerubbabel » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:45 am

Midnightly wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:29 am
Thank you both, I just don't want the HO to return and say the TB certificate expiring between application and decision results in another refusal
You have to submit valid documents to the Home Office. They must be valid at the date of their submission. The Home Office can take months to give a decision but this won't affect the validity for your documents.

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by fiancespousequeries » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:27 pm

Midnightly wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:34 am
CR001 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:29 am
You cannot give notice, but you can make email enquiries etc and include the emails as evidence.
Thank you, yes I came to this conclusion as well.

I think I know where I stand now and will pursue everything above, you have been a wonderful and clear help, thank you again for your time in clearing up my concerns and questions.
Hi.
I just emailed my local registry office saying I wanted to enquire about arranging a ceremony, and advised that we are in the process of a fiancé visa application, which requires evidence of intent to marry in the UK.
The registry office responded with a generic email advising of costs etc.
We applied for my fiances visa under the guidance of an immigration solicitor and she advised that this email from the registry office satisfied the intent to marry requirement.
We only submitted the application ~20 working days go, so are still waiting to hear back.

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by seagul » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:52 pm

fiancespousequeries wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:27 pm
.
We applied for my fiances visa under the guidance of an immigration solicitor and she advised that this email from the registry office satisfied the intent to marry requirement.
.
An email alone will be insufficient. There should be more evidences as previously suggested by CR001
The opinion expressed as above is neither a professional advice nor contesting/competing to other member's opinion/advice.

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by THO » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:34 pm

CR001 - You cannot do anything to prove you will marry and the HO are supposed to be aware of this, see this letter that the registry office provided to me. I have said this on this forum before a good number of times. This is the official letter you should get from the registry office. There is no point in booking a wedding venue or buying flight tickets or anything like that until you have the yes from the HO. Besides, a meeting set up with someone does not prove anything, and I told the HO this when I made a serious complaint to get my MVV refusal overturned, an argument they accepted.

On 9 May 2011 the law regarding foreign nationals marrying or forming a civil partnership in England and Wales was changed. The law now requires foreign nationals to give their notice of marriage/Civil Partnership at a designated register office at the same time as their partner.
Prior to the new laws coming into force we had been advised by UK Visas that Entry Clearance Officers (ECO) at British Embassies were not permitted to request evidence of pre booking of notices of marriage/Civil Partnership and this was detailed in DSP 13.9. The situation has changed and SET1.18 of the instructions used by Entry clearance officers indicates that they are aware of the need for both parties to be in the United Kingdom before arrangements can be made to give a notice of intention to marry. However, they may seek other evidence to satisfy application criteria.
The Registration Service of England and Wales will not provide any written confirmation that a notice of intention to marry or intention to form a civil partnership or a ceremony is booked, as it is not with in the statutory duties of the Superintendent Registrar to do so. If the Embassy insists on this evidence, please ask them to contact our office direct so that we can discuss the matter.
While we appreciate this response does not resolve this matter for you, we hope you can forward it to the appropriate person at the British Embassy so that they can contact this office to discuss the matter further.

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by CR001 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:38 pm

THO wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:34 pm
CR001 - You cannot do anything to prove you will marry and the HO are supposed to be aware of this, see this letter that the registry office provided to me. I have said this on this forum before a good number of times. This is the official letter you should get from the registry office. There is no point in booking a wedding venue or buying flight tickets or anything like that until you have the yes from the HO. Besides, a meeting set up with someone does not prove anything, and I told the HO this when I made a serious complaint to get my MVV refusal overturned, an argument they accepted.

On 9 May 2011 the law regarding foreign nationals marrying or forming a civil partnership in England and Wales was changed. The law now requires foreign nationals to give their notice of marriage/Civil Partnership at a designated register office at the same time as their partner.
Prior to the new laws coming into force we had been advised by UK Visas that Entry Clearance Officers (ECO) at British Embassies were not permitted to request evidence of pre booking of notices of marriage/Civil Partnership and this was detailed in DSP 13.9. The situation has changed and SET1.18 of the instructions used by Entry clearance officers indicates that they are aware of the need for both parties to be in the United Kingdom before arrangements can be made to give a notice of intention to marry. However, they may seek other evidence to satisfy application criteria.
The Registration Service of England and Wales will not provide any written confirmation that a notice of intention to marry or intention to form a civil partnership or a ceremony is booked, as it is not with in the statutory duties of the Superintendent Registrar to do so. If the Embassy insists on this evidence, please ask them to contact our office direct so that we can discuss the matter.
While we appreciate this response does not resolve this matter for you, we hope you can forward it to the appropriate person at the British Embassy so that they can contact this office to discuss the matter further.
You will note that I very clearly stated the word 'Enquiries'. Nowhere did I state it MUST be confirmed booking or bookings!!
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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by Midnightly » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 am

Just wanted to post an update to this story.

We reapplied not long after the thread started.
My partner took her English Language test and passed.
We provided over 5000 pages of conversation history with pictures.
We provided my bank statements.
We provided communications with a registrar.
We updated everything we had already sent with more recent versions (as there were 4 months between applications)

A combination of any/all of the above and we both traveled back from St Petersburg yesterday with a granted visa.

A big thank you to the people of the forum who offered a place to discuss where things went wrong and solutions, this thread can now be closed :)

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Re: Refused a fiance visa on multiple grounds

Post by THO » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:14 pm

Well done, you must be chuffed to bits.

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