What about a Belleek Agreement?

[John]

Yes, you have heard of the Schengen Agreement. The place of Schengen, yes it exists, is in the country of Luxembourg, very close to the borders with France and Germany! A good place to sign such an important agreement. Map of Schengen

Now do we need a Belleek Agreement? It a village that straddles the border of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Map of Belleek

Why? The UK Government has started a consultation of the Common Travel Area. Have a look at this webpage to read more.

In particular :-

On routes from outside the CTA to the UK and the Republic of Ireland, we will explore with the Irish Government a common (short stay visit) visa or mutual recognition of two national visas issued to the same standards.

-: which to me sounds very much like the Schengen area in concept terms, but just limited to the UK and ROI.

[ca.funke]

The UK and the RoI are not doing themselves a favor.

By NOT joining Schengen, they show the rest of Europe that they think they are something better.

Personally, I wish them all the best of luck with their CTA-endavours, but at the same time I would like to see these states leave the EU.

They do not want to fully participate in the EU, so why be a member?

BTW: Joining Schengen could even include the channel-islands and the IOM. Norway and Iceland are part of Schengen, while not being in the EU. The same will soon be true for Switzerland and Liechtenstein. The Vatican is not officially a member, but there are still no border-controls on entry/exit. (OK, that's a special case and doesn't really count)

So I'm sure there could be a viable Schengen-integration, but as long as the UK / the RoI don't want that it is of course impossible.

[John]

Totally agree, it would be helpful if the UK, and Ireland, would joint the Schengen area, but being realistic there is no prospect at all the UK doing that in the foreseeable future.

At least a "Belleek Area" is a step in the right direction.

[mktsoi]

The UK and the RoI are not doing themselves a favor.

By NOT joining Schengen, they show the rest of Europe that they think they are something better.

Personally, I wish them all the best of luck with their CTA-endavours, but at the same time I would like to see these states leave the EU.

They do not want to fully participate in the EU, so why be a member?

BTW: Joining Schengen could even include the channel-islands and the IOM. Norway and Iceland are part of Schengen, while not being in the EU. The same will soon be true for Switzerland and Liechtenstein. The Vatican is not officially a member, but there are still no border-controls on entry/exit. (OK, that's a special case and doesn't really count)

So I'm sure there could be a viable Schengen-integration, but as long as the UK / the RoI don't want that it is of course impossible.

Schengen? if uk and ireland join it, yes, it will make life easier for the foreigners, may be, but is that going to do the uk and ireland are any good? i am non eu national but the passport i have that it granted me visa free travel to all the Schengen countries without a visa. every time when i travel between Schengen countries. they still check my passport like i need a visa. if you are eu national, doesnt matter uk and ireland join Schengen or not, it doesnt affect you at all, but it does if you are non eu national. the british government clearly saying that they will not give up the right on diplomacy, tax and immigration rights to eu. it has been like this for years. would the brits suddenly change their mind on Schengen because it is easier for the foreigners to travel? everyone knows that, not unless uk join Schengen, otherwise the irish gov wont do anything and certainly the irish wont join Schengen by themself without the brits.

dont forget, like someone you mentioned such as norway. they are a Schengen member, but they are not even a full EU member. they are just EEA member. just like some of the brits saying that they should join euro because it is easier for them to travel in europe. if you are the british government. would you give that up too to join euro just because the euro is stronger then used to be and easier for people to travel? the ECB would love the British and Norwegian to join the euro because the brits and norwegian will have to change all their money into euro and lose their economic decision making power to the ECB as well. the british economy was doing very good for past decade. if it wasnt because they spent all their money in the war. they still have one of the strongest economy in whole eu. at least it was better than germany and france anyway for past decade.

if you guys are saying the brits and irish are not fully participate in the EU. i guess you guys should ask the polish, czech and lithuanian not to let the americans put missiles in their countries.

[mktsoi]

by the way, i cant rememeber where did i read this. it could be somewhere in the home office website. if you are already within uk mainland, when you fly between uk and ireland. you dont really need a passport anyway. have you guys realize that, when you fly from ireland to uk. they only have police in the gate to check the boarding pass when you landed in uk instead of checking your passport? i read it somewhere this is a law. it could have been changed by now but certainly not couple of years ago. it just the irish immigration insist they have to check people passport if they flew in from outside ireland, which is including uk. but i certainly read it somewhere that the irish government has signed something with home office about people flying wihtin uk wont need a passport. it didnt surprise me when i read that gnib made up something is illegal. it just like the DOJ screwed up in the EU1 application big time like many people in this forum spoke about already.

[John]

mktsoi, you need to read the UK's consultation document, as linked to in the opening post in this topic. That is, changes might well happen to the current arrangements.

[ca.funke]

...every time when i travel between Schengen countries. they still check my passport like i need a visa.

Did you want to say "when you are flying between Schengen-countries"? In this case the airline will establish your identity on departure. On arrival there is no further check at all, you can leave the airport - and that's it.

You will not see any immigration-officers, not on departure, not on arrival.

I know folks who live in Belgium, 500 meters away from the (land)border to Germany.

They cross every day, from home to work and back, sometimes additionally for shopping or simply for a walk out in the green.

You will have a hard time trying to be checked at the crossing, as there is simply no guard to be seen anywhere. The border there is mainly forests and lawns, you will find some stones marking the border.

This is of course the same for all Schengen-land-borders.

If you are lucky you can show your passport to a grazing cow. I don't know if it would be very interested though...

It's like crossing from co. Tipperary to co. Limerick.



Here, the UK and RoI don't even trust each other... The "CTA"-agreement, already practically doesn't exist anymore. This ensures lenghty checks everyone will have to endure when coming back from practically anywhere. Or why not enjoy the soon-to-be introduced checks between Ireland and "the North", when going for a tea just 2 k's away with the grandma on the "other" side...



Oh - and as paranoid politicians seem to be unable to think clearly, try flying from Dublin to Cork (or the other way). This should be clearly domestic.

On arrival you will find that you have to pass... immigration because there is simply no separate channel for domestic flights.

[Christophe]

if you are the british government. would you give that up too to join euro just because the euro is stronger then used to be and easier for people to travel?

Well, there might be advantages for the UK in joining the Euro, but a mild increase in convenience for the travelling public is really not a good reason to give up one's national currency (as I think you are indeed saying...).

[ca.funke]

I'm trying to understand all the details you mentioned...

...but i certainly read it somewhere that the irish government has signed something with home office about people flying wihtin uk wont need a passport...

...could you fill me in what the Irish government has to do with domestic UK-flights?

...the british government clearly saying that they will not give up the right on diplomacy, tax and immigration rights to eu...

..could you also fill me in about what Schengen has to do with any of the above? (diplomacy, tax and immigration)

[Christophe]

..could you also fill me in about what Schengen has to do with any of the above? (diplomacy, tax and immigration)

Well, it does touch on immigration, in the full sense of that word, since countries in the Schengen area don't necessarily have any say on who can enter the country as a short-term visitor; they also have much less say on which nationalities can visit visa-free than they would if they were not in the Schengen area.

[ca.funke]

Well, it does touch on immigration, in the full sense of that word, since countries in the Schengen area don't necessarily have any say on who can enter the country as a short-term visitor; they also have much less say on which nationalities can visit visa-free than they would if they were not in the Schengen area.

It touches on immigration - it defines who can visit visa free.

Nothing more.

Long-term-residency / work permits for 3rd-country nationals are still fully at the discretion of member-states.

Comparing the current "visa-free" nationalities between the UK and Schengen, interestingly, are pretty much the same.

My personal opinion is, that the hassle incurred for NOT being a member of Schengen is just so much bigger, than the disadvantages of joining could ever be.

An interesting, albeit not very scientific, point is the following: In most Schengen-countries, terminals are separated for intra-Schengen and extra-Schengen flights.

As a result, it is quite common to see:

Schengen:
Malta
Stockholm
Berlin
Paris
Rome
Madrid...

non Schengen:
Lagos
London
Colombo
Beirut
Dublin
Bogota
Caracas...

It's a matter of who you want to be associated with

And, last but not least, Schengen did not open floodgates or cause any major problems, from the North-Cape to North Africa, from Lisbon to Terespol.

Would it cause any problems in the UK/Eire? I doubt it.

[Christophe]

It touches on immigration - it defines who can visit visa free.

Nothing more.

Well, a little more than that, in that because there are no border controls within Schengen, a person who has been issued with a Schengen visa will be able, in practical terms, to visit any Schengen country – even a country that might have chosen not to issue the visa to that person in the first place if it was running its own immigration system and policy. Then there's the further question of people who are illegally in the Schengen area, who can now travel round with relative ease inside that area...

An interesting, albeit not very scientific, point is the following: In most Schengen-countries, terminals are separated for intra-Schengen and extra-Schengen flights.

As a result, it is quite common to see:

Schengen:
Malta
Stockholm
Berlin
Paris
Rome
Madrid...

non Schengen:
Lagos
London
Colombo
Beirut
Dublin
Bogota
Caracas...

It's a matter of who you want to be associated with

A somewhat selective list, one must say.

What about Sydney, Auckland, Montreal, Chicago, Edinburgh, Galway... I might quite reasonably much prefer to be "associated with" any of those places rather than with the places on your Schengen list.

And, last but not least, Schengen did not open floodgates or cause any major problems, from the North-Cape to North Africa, from Lisbon to Terespol.

Would it cause any problems in the UK/Eire? I doubt it.

No, but I sometimes wonder if the EU is at risk of being in the process of scoring a massive "own goal" as a result of its imposition of immigration policies on member states. I'm not saying that an "own goal" will be the result, but time will tell.

I agree that if the British government had not apparently lost control of the UK's borders then the reasons for the UK staying outside the Schengen area for now would be easier for the British authorities to propound. But I don't think it's unreasonable for the UK to want to retain control of who enters and stays in the country as much as it can. As with the currency issue referred to above, the inconvenience of the travelling public is not really a good reason for the UK to give up that control.

Indeed, citizens of EU/EEA countries and Switzerland are barely inconvenienced at all. It is true, sadly, that some of those who require a visa to enter the Schengen area countries and/or the UK and Ireland can be significantly inconvenienced, including people living in Europe, but with a little imagination and thinking outside the box, a lot of that inconvenience could be avoided, to be honest.

[John]

I don't think anyone has picked up on this aspect. Geographically Schengen was a great place to sign that agreement. In Luxembourg, but about 100 metres across the river to Germany, And a bit down the river, say 300 metres, and you are in France!

So if there is to be something like mutual recognition of Irish and UK visas, is Belleek a good place? Or are there other candidates on the border which might qualify?

As regards the Schengen area :-

You will not see any immigration-officers, not on departure, not on arrival.

Indeed so. In the past we have flown from Spain to Denmark. On checking in at Barcelona, airport passports were shown at the check-in desk, but no further checks either in Barcelona or in Copenhagen.

Even stranger, flying from Copenhagen, Denmark to Olso, Norway, no immigration-style checks, but having got airside, ability to buy duty-free, because Norway is outside the EU. Very strange! Same when flying from Norway to Sweden.

[Christophe]

I don't think anyone has picked up on this aspect. Geographically Schengen was a great place to sign that agreement. In Luxembourg, but about 100 metres across the river to Germany, And a bit down the river, say 300 metres, and you are in France!

So if there is to be something like mutual recognition of Irish and UK visas, is Belleek a good place? Or are there other candidates on the border which might qualify?

I don't know, but I notice that just up the road from Belleek is a place called Barr of Balousty More. It'd be cool to have a "Barr of Balousty More Treaty" and if the Common Travel Area became the "Barr of Balousty More Area".

[iamwhoever]

There's the good and the bad with everything. It is impossible to satisfy everyone.

Talking about the good and bad: while the visa is all inclusive and allows immigration free travel between these countries, it gives one a very limited time of 3 months (in a 6 months period) for travel. I grew up wanting to spend about a year backpacking Europe. It isn't possible any more. The most you can do know is a summer. For a visa that covers so much of Europe, you would think the visitors visa would be at least 6 months. The UK and the US will issue a visitor visa for up to 6 months, and the UK isn't all that big.

It's all good. I think there are a lot of good things that have happened with the EU, and I'm sure there are more things that could be done. But, while this may be an issue, there are many more that are more important.

As for making travel and settling easier for non-EU nationals who are already working in a member state: Who knows, maybe the EU will introduce the Blue Card, though I wouldn't be surprised in Ireland and the UK opt-out of it, but they would have good reason to.

About the currency: Why would the UK want to switch over? I wouldn't. Convenience isn't a reason. The British Pound is still showing strong against the Euro, though the gap has narrowed. It would be stupid to while the GBP is still the stronger currency. Plus, there are places that except the Euro in the UK, most notably in NI. It's really up to the company. That is where there would be the biggest need. IKEA, in Belfast, at one point said they wouldn't except the Euro, but they eventually gave as many people travel across the border for it.

This debate could go on forever. If all of the EU or EEA area wants to join in for one visitor visa, so be it, if that is what is best for them. I think there will always be a limitation on how much the EU will come together. I think it's great, how strong it has become. It's really great for Europe. However, countries will want to maintain some sense of nationality. It's only natural, and it is their right.

As for this new agreement, if it suites both countries, so be it. If people feel like Ireland and the UK separate themselves from the rest of the EU, oh well. Like I said, you will never make everyone happy. Just give it time and let it play out.

[ca.funke]

...Then there's the further question of people who are illegally in the Schengen area, who can now travel round with relative ease inside that area...

If such people are checked anywhere inside the Schengen-Area, they are sent back. It is hard to remain illegally inside the Schengen-Area, especially in the long-term, as everybody needs medical-treatment at some stage, or has to avail of other public services. At this stage their illegal stay comes to an end.

...But I don't think it's unreasonable for the UK to want to retain control of who enters and stays in the country as much as it can...

How do they not retain this control? All EU-nationals can enter the UK anyway. All 3rd-country nationals living anywhere inside the EU, who could then enter the UK for a visit without additional visas, are centrally registered. So the UK has a much broader database at their disposal. (This is the "Schengen-Information-System", or SIS, to which they currently have only restricted access for not being members.)

...As with the currency issue referred to above, the inconvenience of the travelling public is not really a good reason for the UK to give up that control...

Schengen has nothing to do with the currency, these topics shouldn't be mixed into one. I am aware that you are aware of this, Christophe, but I would just like to stress this fact.

Indeed, citizens of EU/EEA countries and Switzerland are barely inconvenienced at all. It is true, sadly, that some of those who require a visa to enter the Schengen area countries and/or the UK and Ireland can be significantly inconvenienced, including people living in Europe, but with a little imagination and thinking outside the box, a lot of that inconvenience could be avoided, to be honest.

Inside the box - there is full Schengen-membership.

Outside the box, I could imagine a Schengen-membership, with the exception that UK/Eire are allowed to check Passports on entry. This would allow them to retain their desired "check" as to who enters, while accepting and issuing Schengen-Visas.

[mktsoi]

...every time when i travel between Schengen countries. they still check my passport like i need a visa.

Did you want to say "when you are flying between Schengen-countries"? In this case the airline will establish your identity on departure. On arrival there is no further check at all, you can leave the airport - and that's it.

You will not see any immigration-officers, not on departure, not on arrival.

I know folks who live in Belgium, 500 meters away from the (land)border to Germany.

They cross every day, from home to work and back, sometimes additionally for shopping or simply for a walk out in the green.

You will have a hard time trying to be checked at the crossing, as there is simply no guard to be seen anywhere. The border there is mainly forests and lawns, you will find some stones marking the border.

This is of course the same for all Schengen-land-borders.

If you are lucky you can show your passport to a grazing cow. I don't know if it would be very interested though...

It's like crossing from co. Tipperary to co. Limerick.



Here, the UK and RoI don't even trust each other... The "CTA"-agreement, already practically doesn't exist anymore. This ensures lenghty checks everyone will have to endure when coming back from practically anywhere. Or why not enjoy the soon-to-be introduced checks between Ireland and "the North", when going for a tea just 2 k's away with the grandma on the "other" side...



Oh - and as paranoid politicians seem to be unable to think clearly, try flying from Dublin to Cork (or the other way). This should be clearly domestic.

On arrival you will find that you have to pass... immigration because there is simply no separate channel for domestic flights.

did you ever have your passport check in UK when you fly from ireland? they only have one channel in cork because they just being cheap skat about this. the irish immigration control not suppose to check your passport because of the common travel area agreement.

years ago when i was in uk. my visa just about to expire. i phoned the home office and asked them if i leave uk and go to any european country and fly back to uk instead of go to do the paper work in croydon. the home office told me that i can go anywhere in europe other than republic of ireland. if they knew i went to ireland after my visa expired and reenter uk. they will make sure i will never enter uk again. thats what i have been told in year 2001. just like i mentioned before. has anyone has their passport checked by the uk immigration when fly from ireland to uk after they checked in the irish airport?

[mktsoi]

...Then there's the further question of people who are illegally in the Schengen area, who can now travel round with relative ease inside that area...

If such people are checked anywhere inside the Schengen-Area, they are sent back. It is hard to remain illegally inside the Schengen-Area, especially in the long-term, as everybody needs medical-treatment at some stage, or has to avail of other public services. At this stage their illegal stay comes to an end.

do you know one of the new reqirement to apply for Schengen Visa is medical insurance? actually, i dont think it is new anymore. it has been there for few years already. for a non eu national to enter Schengen must have medical cover for the duration the trip. the Schegen countries(ecspecially country like Germany) has good health care system. if you fall sick in germany and need to stay in hospital and you dont have any health insurance. they will have to fix you up regardless what happened. and they cannot deport you even you are illegal. those Schengen countries dont want to pay out big amount of money because of people trying to scam them. also, if you are staying illegally, most likely they will not deport you unless the eu country you residing illegally in EU has agreement with you home country to take you back. if they deported you back to your home country and your government refused to take you back for whatever reason. that EU country has to let you stay by international law. unless you already committed an offence in that eu country, you will be going to JAIL instead of for them to deport you.

they have been talking about the first point of entry in EU for asylum seekers or illegal immgirants. i think they might worked out a deal by now. trust me. the irish government would love to do this if they could. the deal was about to send back the failed asylum seekers or illegal immigrants in uk to their first point of entry in whole EU. unless the illegal immigrant or asylum seeker flew straight to UK from outside EU

[ca.funke]

did you ever have your passport check in UK when you fly from ireland?

Last time I arrived in Stanstead, there was one Q for immigration (passport-check), and one for arrivals from Ireland/Channel-islands (you have to show your boarding-pass to qualify for this line, which is not checked against a passport).

As a sidenote: The system in place is open to fraud, as all arrival-passengers mix: I (EU-citizen, arriving from Ireland) could meet a third-country-national in arrivals (arriving from anywhere), give him my boarding-pass to allow him through the Ireland/Channel-islands-Q, while clearing through immigration with my EU-passport myself.

they only have one channel in cork because they just being cheap skat about this. the irish immigration control not suppose to check your passport because of the common travel area agreement.

When arriving in Cork from Dublin, this has nothing to do with the CTA. It is Irish-domestic.

When arriving from the UK it is CTA.

In both cases they are "not supposed" to check your passport, but do.

I love how this state sticks to its own rules/laws. (As EU1 / EU-4-Fam shows, laws don't count so much here)


The more I think about it, the more I hijacked this threat. Really sorry about this. I'll refrain from interfering in here now, and just sit back, relax, and observe "your" Schengen develop... All the best with it.
(Maybe you'll remember me next time you arrive anywhere on the continent, or back home, or when crossing from RoI to "the North" )

[Christophe]

The more I think about it, the more I hijacked this threat. Really sorry about this.

Huh? What do you mean, you hijacked the thread? It's always interesting to hear what you have to say, and it's good to have discussions around these things; at least, I think it is.

[ca.funke]

...it's good to have discussions around these things...

I'm not bitter in any way, I guess we know each other well enough for that.

My hijacking-thought comes from the idea that this thread was designed to develop a potential "Belleek Agreement", while I started my usual attempt to draw UK/Eire into my beloved Schengen-area. And that's of course off-topic.

[Christophe]

My hijacking-thought comes from the idea that this thread was designed to develop a potential "Belleek Agreement", while I started my usual attempt to draw UK/Eire into my beloved Schengen-area. And that's of course off-topic.

Well, not really off-topic, since the two are related in concept at least. And of course, there is always the possibility of some sort of "Belleek Agreement" co-existing with Schengen, inside the Schengen are — think of the Nordic Passport Union, for example: the Nordic countries still have mutual agreements concerning each other's citizens that are nothing to do with Schengen or the EU or the EEA.

But the sticking point about the UK joining Schengen is likely to remain, for the foreseeable future, the question of loss of control of immigration. A "Belleek Agreement" by which British and Irish visas were mutually recognised (or even commonly issued in some cases) would make life easier for a lot of non-citizens living in the UK and Ireland.

That said, there is something of a history of control-free immigration not being deemed in the long run to work well: think of the largely free movement of Commonwealth citizens that continued well after the war, and the passport-free travel between Australia and New Zealand (though the citizens of those two countries are still easily able to enter and live in the other country). I guess the changes that are being proposed to the way that the Common Travel Area works could be another example of this long-term trend.

[ca.funke]

Today I finally realised what I don't like about the ideas Irish and UK politicians put into their CTA-thoughts: They are illegal

They keep repeating that CTA rules are valid for CTA-citizens only. However, EU-citizens may not be discriminated against compared to own citizens.

I lodged a complaint with the EU - let's see what happens:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:56 AM
Subject: Complaint against the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom
To: EU Commission - Complaints <sg-plaintes@ec.europa.eu>


Dear Madam or Sir,

the UK and Ireland operate the so called "Common Travel Area", which is an agreement that (mainly) allows checkpoint-free travel between these two states.

The implications of this are explained on the following Irish government's website:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... and_the_UK

The following sentence can be found.

...The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries...

This is clearly a discrimination against all other EU-citizens, travelling on the same routes as Irish or UK citizens.

For the UK, the following link contains a leaftlet by relevant ministers:
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2008/jul ... onsult.pdf

Here, the following sentences can be found.

• introduction of full immigration controls for non-CTA nationals of countries other than the UK, the Republic of Ireland and the Crown dependencies on all sea and air routes by 2014
• new measures to verify the identities of UK, Irish and Crown dependency nationals on the same air and sea routes
• the UK will consider increasing ad hoc immigration checks on vehicles in order to target non-CTA nationals on the Northern Ireland side of the land border
• Movement without immigration controls for nationals of the CTA has been an important component of the special relationship which exists between the peoples of these islands, and provides long established political, economic and social benefits
• ...many more examples can be found in the text...

Please investigate weather such a discriminatory regulation against "non-CTA" EU-citizens can be valid within the EU.

Regards, Christian

[Ben]

Great work, Christian, as always!

Can't wait to hear their response.