Suing the State over EU1 / EU-4-Fam

[ca.funke]

Dear all,

I am currently contemplating suing the State.

In this regard, I would be happy to collect all thoughts anyone may have.

The actual case is rather simple:

• I am German, my wife is non-EU (Lebanese)
• Applied for EU 1 // EU-4-Fam on January 31st (according to acknowledgement-letter)
• The acknowledgement-letter was the only thing I ever received back
• according to 2004/38/EC (Article 10, Paragraph 1) AND
• according to S.I. No. 656 of 2006 (Article 7(2))
• The residence-card should have at least be "caused to be issued" on July 31st at the latest
• However, nothing happened
• The aim is to have EU-4-Fam issued immediately

Calling GNIB/DoJ/INIS gives no information at all, they just say "this may take up to another three months or so", which is clearly illegal?

I rang a solicitor today, who told me that usually this should be an easy win, however:

• As this is against the state, it will go to the high-court immediately
• Even though the case looks obvious, it's after all people making a decision

Any ideas welcome.

One thing I wonder in specific: I never moved, my address did not change. How can I prove that I never received a reply? They could eliminate my efforts in its tracks by issuing the card upon hearing that this is ongoing, claiming they wanted to do so a while ago but couldn't because I didn't respond...

Can I ring the department again, asking for an update and having my address confirmed over the phone, and recording this, maybe with a reporter and the solicitor as witnesses, or sthg similar?

[ashimashi]

fair play to you for that.

I suggest you sent a REGISTERED (final) LETTER to them, in which you state that they are over limit and demand to get a reply (And your card) within -say 2 weeks or 1 months - and say that if you do not receive a reply you will sue them (and that you've spoken to a solicitor and have prepared your documents already). This way they can't say they didn't receive it / they didn't know.

[ca.funke]

...I suggest you sent a REGISTERED (final) LETTER to them, in which you state that they are over limit...

already done

They do not respond to threat - suing has to be done, or not. Threatening them doesn't work. However, like I said, I already sent this (final) letter. Albeit not registered, as it has no legal relevance. Over the limit = over the limit.

Thanks for that - much appreciated :)

[ashimashi]

...I suggest you sent a REGISTERED (final) LETTER to them, in which you state that they are over limit...

already done

They do not respond to threat - suing has to be done, or not. Threatening them doesn't work. However, like I said, I already sent this (final) letter. Albeit not registered, as it has no legal relevance. Over the limit = over the limit.

Yes, but they can come up with many excuses - like :
- we sent you a letter, didn't you get it?
- we received nothing from you
- we recieved no queries from you

etc etc.

Sending a Registered letter eliminates it. As far as I know it's always a good practice to specify a (reasonable) time frame for replying as well, so that you can say you gave them every chance.

Good luck with it. If it's a certain case you should be able to find a no-win no-fee solicitor for it?

[Christophe]

One thing I wonder in specific: I never moved, my address did not change. How can I prove that I never received a reply? They could eliminate my efforts in its tracks by issuing the card upon hearing that this is ongoing, claiming they wanted to do so a while ago but couldn't because I didn't respond...?

But if they had tried to contact you by post, wouldn't that be on your file? It should be fairly easy to determine whether it's there or not, and perhaps it ought to be determined before any further legal action is taken. If there's no record of that on your file, I think you can safely assume that they didn't try to contact you and that they can't subsequently claim that they did.

Can your solicitor advise about this?

[ca.funke]

But if they had tried to contact you by post, wouldn't that be on your file? It should be fairly easy to determine whether it's there or not, and perhaps it ought to be determined before any further legal action is taken. If there's no record of that on your file, I think you can safely assume that they didn't try to contact you and that they can't subsequently claim that they did.

Can your solicitor advise about this?

The department refuses to reply to anything in writing. All I can say is that since the acknowledgement I did not receive anything. This is the truth, but I do not expect them to play fair.

Thus, whatever "they" may have on file won't help me at all, as they could manipulate it to their liking.

That's why I'm contemplating a phone-call, to which they reply. If during this call I get confirmation about my address that is registered with them, as well as the statement they made before, that this will "take another three months", then this should be all I need?

I don't know if it's allowed to record a call in Ireland, and use it as legal proof?

[yankeegirl]

Try searching through some of Archigabe's posts. He went through a solicitor and not only got the 5 year residence, but also his fees covered, IIRC. The DOJ wanted him to agree to a confidentiality clause as well, which he declined. In one of the older threads, there was also a link to an article one of the Irish papers ran about his case.

[Christophe]

The department refuses to reply to anything in writing. All I can say is that since the acknowledgement I did not receive anything. This is the truth, but I do not expect them to play fair.

Thus, whatever "they" may have on file won't help me at all, as they could manipulate it to their liking.

That's why I'm contemplating a phone-call, to which they reply. If during this call I get confirmation about my address that is registered with them, as well as the statement they made before, that this will "take another three months", then this should be all I need?

I don't know if it's allowed to record a call in Ireland, and use it as legal proof?

I'd seek legal advice about all of that. If you present to your lawyer the concern and the issues around that you have here, your lawyer will presumably be able to advise.

Unfortunately, short of a "raid" on the premises where you file is held (which obviously isn't going to happen), it's never going to be completely possible to prevent tampering with the file. But a lawyer's letter might prompt a response, and if it is along the lines of "a decision will be made/permit issued as quickly as possible", then the obvious inference is that it hasn't got lost in the post.

Once again, I do suggest you raise all of these things with your solicitor (who presumably has an interest in this sort of thing)?

[ca.funke]

I will go ahead with this and actually sue the Minister of Justice.

I found a solicitor who will handle the case.

It sounds promising, first meeting will happen Friday morning at 09h00 a.m.

I will keep this forum posted.

[mendo]

@ca.funke

I admire you, I hope you'll succeed as Archigabe did!

I am waiting for my wife's LTR and if she is refused I will have to apply for EUFAM4 stamp for her, now that the EC ruled against Ireland.

All the best,

Mendo
________
Bmw 600

[ca.funke]

@ca.funke

I admire you, I hope you'll succeed as Archigabe did!

I am waiting for my wife's LTR and if she is refused I will have to apply for EUFAM4 stamp for her, now that the EC ruled against Ireland.

All the best,

Mendo

While I hope so too, I think there is nothing to admire

But thanks for the encouragement anyway !

[ca.funke]

It works as follows:

The solicitor sends a letter to GNIB/DoJ/INIS, telling them that as a last grace-period they have two weeks to reply. (This seems to be ignored 100% of the time but is necessary)

After this has elapsed he will apply in the high-court to get permission to sue the state. (This is apparently necessary to filter totally unsubstantiated claims, a formality, and takes around 5 minutes)

The high-court then issues the permission to sue the state. The court notifies the state of this fact.

In MOST cases they back down at this stage to avoid a lawsuit, as they know that they will loose, and issue whatever you are legally entitled to. (In my case all I want is an EU4Fam card which they just didn't issue so far because they are understaffed, overworked, whatever...) In this case the matter ends here.

In SOME cases they still don't fulfill their obligations. (negligence? boredom? couldn't-care-less attitude? laziness?)

If they don't comply to their legal obligations at this stage, the case will go to the high-court, where it is dealt with in a matter of a few minutes. (The cases are just too simple)

The court will then order to have the card issued, and the matter ends here.

NOTE: This is how I understood it as of today. I think there are some little details which are still incorrect - I will update them as I learn better about them

[ca.funke]

eerrgghh,

although I cannot update the above procedure yet, I can say that GNIB/DoJ reacted today.

GNIB/DoJ/INIS called the solicitor and said that the card will be issued within 2 weeks from now.

Although I don't believe it before it happened, so far i guess that's not the worst sign

Anyone any thoughts?

[ginger4pluck]

I'm EU (German/Belgian), my wife (Lebanon) joined me in Ireland on a join-spouse visa after marrying in Cyprus, without prior residence elsewhere in the Union.

When she arrived we were told to apply for EU1, and the same day/minute we got stamp 4, and she started a new job 1 week after arriving.

The whole "system" is not a system but a mess.

Sorry... you sent this message in a thread I opened, I misunderstood... did your wife got the Stamp 4 at the same day she applied? In Ireland?

[ca.funke]

I'm EU (German/Belgian), my wife (Lebanon) joined me in Ireland on a join-spouse visa after marrying in Cyprus, without prior residence elsewhere in the Union.

When she arrived we were told to apply for EU1, and the same day/minute we got stamp 4, and she started a new job 1 week after arriving.

The whole "system" is not a system but a mess.

Sorry... you sent this message in a thread I opened, I misunderstood... did your wife got the Stamp 4 at the same day she applied? In Ireland?

Yes - the same day.

We went to GNIB/DoJ, where on one occasion we were told that we have to apply for EU1 / StampEU4Fam. I asked how long this would take, they told me "up to 6 months", which I didn't believe.

So we just returned the next day, hoping we'd be served by someone else. As a result we got Stamp4 immediately.

Only after this we applied for EU4Fam.

[ca.funke]

Hi all,

next to contacting a solicitor, I also contacted the Irish Solvit-network.

After the German Solvit wasn't much of a help I did not put much hope into this, however I can say the Irish Solvit is of great help and really fast!

I received an email from them today, which said that they have been informed as of today that EU4Fam was granted, and the corresponding confirmation-letter should be in the post.

To contact solvit, simply send an email to solvit@entemp.ie and describe in detail what your situation is.

I will update this thread of course, as to weather we will actually receive EU4Fam at some stage.

Rgds, Christian

[Christophe]

Well done (so far anyway — pending the arrival of the EU4Fam, of course)!

The fact that your permit might be granted doesn't set any sort of precedent though, nor does it mean that other people's will be granted more expeditiously. I guess that one way to make a lasting change is for lots and lots of people to pursue complaints....

[ca.funke]

After

• 6 months and 14 days
• 5 visits to GNIB (endless waiting each time)
• countless telephone calls to GNIB (can't recommend them, 100% pointless)
• countless emails to the European Commission
• some emails to Irish solvit
• involvement of a lawyer
• roughly 100 emails in total
• 175 loosely related posts in this forum
• knowing 2004/38/EC inside out
• significant loss of nerves
• all of this in rather bad weather

we are now proud bearers of an EU4Fam card for my wife.

[mendo]

Super , super , super!

Well done!
________
Caribbean recipes

[zuz]

Congratulations to you and your wife Christian!
I am interested how long would you be waiting for without your effort.

Hello there, is there anybody who sorted out EU1 with help from Solvit?
We sent them paperwork this morning..

[Christophe]

After

• ...
• all of this in rather bad weather

we are now proud bearers of an EU4Fam card for my wife.

Such a pity about the weather ...



Seriously, well done!

[scrudu]

Congrats! Glad it's finally sorted for you

[dan72]

my self and my family send u Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! best of luck...

[ca.funke]

Thanks everyone for the good wishes

Now entering the next task: Ensuring visa-free-travel via 2004/38/EC.

Please see this thread.

Thanks again! The support from this forum is invaluable