trying to find out whether i'm british or not

[tevel3]

so this is gonna be pretty long i guess...
this is the case.

my grandfather was born in the uk around 1914 (the year doesn't really matter i guess).
in 1951 my dad was born in israel and was registered as british by my grandfather even though he has an automatically calim for citizenship - therefore he is british by descent.
around 1975 my dad married my mom and in 1981 my mom has been
registered as british (before the all law has been changed in 1983).

in 1990 (this day i am 18 years old) i was born in israel to a british dad by descent and a mother who was registered as british by a marrying a british dad by descent (sorry i repeat my self, just so it aall be clear).

in 1991 i was taken by my mom and my brother and sister to the uk
have lived there for 3 years
and was never registered while my brother and sister were registered as british.
meanwhile i was registered in my mom's passport (there is even a scan if needed) and was not registered as british in any other way, since my mom has been told that i have a automatic claim for citizenship.

*i do not have any documents proving i've lived in the uk for 3 years, maybe there's an info about me in a clinic i was in...

1994 was returned with my family to israel and after
few years later (1997\1998) when my mom tried to issue a new passport for herself and for me,
she has been told by the embessy that i cannot have a passport since i am not british and being registered in her passport was a mistake.

now i have called the home office or the enquiries but they are not sure whether i'm british or not since my mom was registered as british and have not gained her citizenship by her self and was natruliezed as british.
so they have told me to send her registration certificate so they can have a close look at the document and to determine if she can pass on her citizenship.

the deal is... i was in her british passport!
how can i not be british?
and i have provided all the info in may 2007 and an agent told me i am british (provided him all the documents)
but the embessy saying i'm not

so a mom who was registered as british through a marriage to a british citizen by descent can pass on her citizenship?

tnx and sorry if my english is not good enough

[paulp]

Did your mother gain her British citizenship by registration or naturalisation?

[tevel3]

like i said before she has gained it by regeistration
even thogh ive been told by one of the agents to send a copy of the documents cuz she was registered in 81
and there is probably something cuz it was before the law has changed.

[tevel3]

have more info about my case...

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ornabroad/

it says: "In exceptional circumstances, we may exercise our discretion to allow applications made within six years of the child's birth. We would normally grant applications if:

* the parents received incorrect advice from an official source, a solicitor or other recognised advisory agency. For example, they had been told the child was already a British citizen; or"

this is my case
but i am not 5/6 years old i am 18
and been told for many many years that i am not british even thought i could have been registered as one

so is there something i can do?
can i go to england and ask for a lawyer to represent me?

[paulp]

JAJ, another member of the board, is an expert on old citizenship laws.

Is there any document proving that you have received bad advice?

[brownbonno]

You must be registered to be included in your mums passport.By default you are a british citizen.

[tevel3]

You must be registered to be included in your mums passport.By default you are a british citizen.

i have no document proving i was registered, only my name in my mother's passport.
i dont have document that i can go to the embessy with, no document that says: "you shall give this citizen a british passport".
since all the info ive given them saying i'm not and the name in the passport saying i am one,
for them is a mistake (that my name is in the passport)

what should i do?

btw, what does it mean "By default you are a british citizen"?

JAJ, i have no document proving she has recived bad advicing

[John]

my mom has been registered as british

Are you absolutely sure of that? It sounds to me that your British father moved the family to the UK for 3 years .... long enough for your mother to make an application for Naturalisation. Your mother is stiil around? If so can you ask her to dig out her certificate? Does it say Registration or Naturalisation?

My Moderator colleague JAJ is much more of an expert on these matters than me, particularly on the historical aspects, but certainly if she was Naturalised she would, I think, be British otherwise than by descent. But you were born before she moved to the UK, so I think you would not automatically become British on her getting British Nationality, but could have been included in the application and been registered. Are you absolutely certain that did not happen?

Do you know the exact date your mother became British? Have you asked UKBA here in the UK to check their records, to see if your were registered as British?

[tevel3]

my mom has been registered as british

Are you absolutely sure of that? It sounds to me that your British father moved the family to the UK for 3 years .... long enough for your mother to make an application for Naturalisation. Your mother is stiil around? If so can you ask her to dig out her certificate? Does it say Registration or Naturalisation?

My Moderator colleague JAJ is much more of an expert on these matters than me, particularly on the historical aspects, but certainly if she was Naturalised she would, I think, be British otherwise than by descent. But you were born before she moved to the UK, so I think you would not automatically become British on her getting British Nationality, but could have been included in the application and been registered. Are you absolutely certain that did not happen?

Do you know the exact date your mother became British? Have you asked UKBA here in the UK to check their records, to see if your were registered as British?

in 80-82 both my mom and dad lived there for 2 years
with my brother and sister (before i was born)
but before she moved to the uk she was registered in israel at the embessy.
and she was registered under section 6(2).
and then in 80 after reciving the registration certificate she moved with my family to the uk (before i was born)

btw how can i prove she has lived there for 2 years? (in 80-82)
and how can i prove i lived in the uk for 3 years later on in 91-94

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2130/nuritab0vz5.jpg
*a picture of the scanned certificate.

my mom was regisitered way back before i was born so she didn't registered me under the same applaction.

in 90 i was born,
and in 91 my mom moved with me, my brother and sister without my father who have satyed in israel.
also we have stayed there for 3 years but it was registered in her british passport before the end of the 3 years (i was regisitered at the beging of our stay)

in 91 my mom went to register me, my brother and sister as british and was told that i do not need to be registered and only my brother and sister does, and told to go to the passport office,
there she gave the registration certificate that i uploaded and i was added to the passport:

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9779/nurit002qg9.jpg
*my name in her passport

she was registered as u can see in 1980 under section 6(2)
and was not Naturalised.

about the UKBA, ive called them and it seems like they do not save records so they won't have to give citizenship in case someone has lost his documents.
so they can't check out their records to see if i'm british,
only my documents can tell if i am one.

ive sent all the info with scanned documents (in high res)
to get conformation whether my mom can pass on her citizenship.

but still am i missing something?

i want to remind that my father is british by descent and was born in israel to a british father by birth.

*sorry if my english not fluent enough

[vinny]

It appears that your mother was British by descent (s.14(1)(b)(iv), unless she qualifies for an exception under s.14(2)).

[JAJ]

Facts of the case are:

- Father is a British citizen by descent
- Mother is a British citizen by descent
- Child (born in Israel) was included in mother's British passport in 1991

Child could not have been automatically a British citizen, however the inclusion of the child on a British passport suggests that the child has been registered with the Home Office.
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

------------

6. Children included in United Kingdom passports
6.1 Between June 1970 (for posts overseas) and July 1971 (for United Kingdom Passport Offices) and February 1972, the Passport Office and Foreign & Commonwealth Office posts overseas did not make any observation about the nationality status of a child who was not a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies if the child was included in the passport of a person other than the parent. It is therefore important that the inclusion of a child in a United Kingdom passport issued between these dates should not be regarded as conclusive evidence of the
child's nationality status.

6.2 In February 1972, Passport Office and posts abroad ceased, except in the most exceptional circumstances, to include in United Kingdom passports the particulars of children who were citizens of other Commonwealth countries, citizens of the Republic of Ireland or aliens. When these arose, posts were instructed to include the name of the child in the parent's passport with a note to the effect that the nationality status of the child had not been determined. To avoid future difficulties, and to encourage parents to get their children properly documented as soon as possible, the validity of the parent's passport was restricted (or cut back) to 6 months.

6.3 If a child's name has been added without observation it should not be assumed that the child's nationality status has necessarily been established by documentary evidence other than that needed to establish the parent/child relationship. Full supporting documents will need to be requested when an application is received for a child whose particulars have been included in a parent's passport by an overseas
post.

6.4 Passport offices investigated whether children were British citizens etc before including their particulars in a parent's passport, and records should indicate the derivation of the child's status where this was established. If an investigation could not be completed before the date of travel for lack of satisfactory evidence, for example, of legitimate descent or legitimation, children may, if there was every indication that they were British citizens etc, have been included in the parent's passport with a note to the effect that their nationality status had not been determined. The validity of the parent's passport was restricted and the index card noted.

---------

Or it is possible that a mistake has happened and the child was included on parent's passport because someone in the Passport Office did not know the law.

The Home Office has this to say about such cases:
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

---------

Construing passport etc applications as applications for citizenship
6.3.8 Cases sometimes come to light where, due to official error, people have been consularly registered while ineligible for such registration or wrongly issued with British passports or certificates of entitlement to the right of abode. As a result they might have lost age- or time-limited entitlements to citizenship. So that they are not disadvantaged by the official error we should be ready in such cases to construe the application as an undetermined application for citizenship and process it accordingly.

6.3.9 This policy will not normally cover the holders of British Visitors passports which have been issued in error. It is intended primarily to benefit people who had, but no longer have, an avenue to registration under the minor or other registration provisions of the British Nationality Act 1948 or the British Nationality Act 1981 and have been led to believe that they are British or have a UK right of abode. Although we should act reasonably in the circumstances of each individual case, the policy should not normally apply where:
• a realistic avenue to citizenship is still open, or
• at the time of the error, the person would clearly not have been eligible for the grant of citizenship (as would be the case, for instance, with an adult who was unable to meet the unwaivable requirements for naturalisation or registration)
but any discretion should normally be exercised in the person's favour.

6.3.10 The policy should not apply, either:
• where there is reason to believe that the passport, certificate of entitlement or consular birth registration was obtained by deception, or
• where the person could reasonably have known that no such claim existed.

6.3.11 It is important to note that if an application referred to in
10 paragraph 6.3.8 above is to be construed as a citizenship application, it must have been received by the authority specified in the appropriate nationality regulations. In this connection it should be noted that:
• the Passport Office did not form part of the Home Office until 1 April 1984
• an application for registration as a CUKC under s.6(2) or s.7(1) of the 1948 Act had to be made to the Home Secretary if the applicant was in a foreign country
• if a passport etc application is known to have been received but cannot now be traced and (if necessary) passed to the correct receiving authority, it will not be possible to treat it as a citizenship application.

-------

Next steps should be formal written requests to the Home Office and Passport Office for the information on their files in this case.

They are supposed to keep archives. Considering the grossly irresponsible attitude towards record keeping in many areas of British public administration, it is quite possible they may claim to have lost or destroyed everything but that should be challenged at the highest level.

A Subject Access request under the Data Protection Act will force them to apply.

If it does turn out that the child was included on parent's passport by mistake there may still be a problem as it was done when the child was 18 months old, beyond the normal 12 month time limit for section 3(2) registration.

[tevel3]

thank u very much JAJ.
even though my brother and sister were registered as british dispite they were older than 12 months, they were around 13\12 years old.
sounds weird that my sister and brother have been registered as british and i'm not eligible for british citizenship.
ive lived there for 3 years
and even though i was registered in my mom's passport after the noraml 12 months
i still lived in the uk for 3 years, so if she found out i'm not eligible on time she could have registered me as one cuz ive lived there for 3 years.
and in this cases i think i'm eligible to have citizenship if indeed i was living there for 3 years.
can't prove i lived there 3 years, maybe clinic records...
my brother and sister lived in the uk for 5 years total.

so what should i do?
i no longer know if i'm british or not, and seems like i am not according to the info ive given.
but if i am eligible after the wrong advice my mom recived, cuz i have lived there for 3 years, there must be thing she could have done in that time.
so what should i do?
what is the right thing to do?
i'm thinking to go to the uk to sorte things out, what am i suppose to do?
where should i go?

because i have contacted the home office the passport office and they dont keep records they are saying to me that i need to send them the certificates for conformation with the question whether my mom can pass on her british citizenship.

but even if they do answer me with a affirmative answer there is really nothing i can do about it cuz they already answer me with affirmative answer in may 2007, i sent my dad's brith certificate and my mom's registration certificate and the passport and all the thing

but i said that my mom was naturalized but if the agent seen the certificate he could have seen that my mom was registered and not naturalized, but still he said i have a calim for citizenship.

so it doesn't work, i can't go to the embessy and calim for citizenship cuz they are saying i'm not eligible.

so if i'm going to go to the uk what should i do cuz
if they see all the info in first hand i might get a conclusive answer
(since they will get all the right info with no mistake)

and tnx alot!

[JAJ]

thank u very much JAJ.
even though my brother and sister were registered as british dispite they were older than 12 months, they were around 13\12 years old.
sounds weird that my sister and brother have been registered as british and i'm not eligible for british citizenship.
ive lived there for 3 years

- When were your brother and sister born?
- How long did they live in the U.K.?
- Under what section of the British Nationality Act were they registered as British? Look at their certificates, if available.
- And how old were you at the time they became British?

[tevel3]

thank u very much JAJ.
even though my brother and sister were registered as british dispite they were older than 12 months, they were around 13\12 years old.
sounds weird that my sister and brother have been registered as british and i'm not eligible for british citizenship.
ive lived there for 3 years

- When were your brother and sister born?
- How long did they live in the U.K.?
- Under what section of the British Nationality Act were they registered as British? Look at their certificates, if available.
- And how old were you at the time they became British?

ok,
they were born 76-77
they lived 2 years between the years 80-82
and then 3 years with me between the years 91-94
and i was 1 and a half year old if i'm not wrong when they became british
i'm not sure yet under which section but i'll check soon
by the way they were around 12\13 years old when they became british

this mean that my mom have apply the applaction for the 3 of us (for the registration)
and they have been registered while they told my mom that i do not need to be registered cuz i am already british - just to go to the passport office.

[JAJ]

You need to find out the details on your siblings' citizenship certificates and report back once you have this information, if you want any more meaningful advice.

[tevel3]

not enough documents
and they are not saying anything from what i can see
there is not registration cetificate of my sibling
all these documents with the stamp
and i have another paper with an answer written in hand
and i cannot read it...

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5918/nurit003ha2.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2563/answerhb3.jpg

btw ive been thinking about it
in case i'm not british was never registered
accordding to these documents can i go to the home office and apply for residency?
cuz mistake has been made...
maybe i wasn't suppose to be in my mom's passport but i have been registered
my mom couldn't do anything to make things better like registered me as one cuz we've lived there for 3 years, my brother and sister went to a school over there ive had a medical card over there.
i had life there, it's not like i was leagl when i been there with my sibling...
can i apply for residency? to work and after 2 years apply for citizenship?

[JAJ]

The hand-written letter (dated 1991) mentions your name and refers to an application for British citizenship. There is a file number on all the documents (beginning with G) - this is your Home Office reference number.

The printed documents (dated 1991 and 1992) only mentions your siblings.

It appears that an application may have been made for you to become a British citizen at the time. You need to find out what happened to that.

You should contact the Home Office with that file number and ask them what happened to your application. They do have archives.

I'm going to hazard a guess here - the 1991 letters are from Croydon, the 1992 letter from Liverpool. Did something get lost when things were transferred?

If it turns out that the application was never decided, or they thought that you were already British (by mistake), it should be possible to complete the application now.

If you need an immigration lawyer to help you deal with the Home Office, you could contact Laura Devine: http://www.lauradevine.com

These documents are precious - DO NOT LOSE THEM.

[tevel3]

first of all
tnx for the answer!

yes, something was lost, dunno if on the way or not, but the other letter says i do not need to be registered cuz i am british and my mom need ti gi ti the passport office instad.
but these are all the documents i have (including documents of my birth certificate of my father and grand father if i'm not wrong, but no documents about my sibiling being registered, or these documents saying they were registered?)

anyway i'm really short with money, so calling them always resolve with the same speech: send an email to the following email with the regarding question and scans of your documents, they never tell me whether they have any info in the archive about me or any of the family.
so if i call them and ask them to check if theres an application for registration for me
will they answer me or i'm just gonna spend more money and nothing will come out of it?

anyway i'm going next week to the uk, can i sort things out over there?
will i get somekind of a status till every thing will be clear?

btw can i copy and print my documents and get a stamp at the embessy verifing the authentic of the documents?
i'm really afraid to travel with these documents, this is all i have and i really dont wanna lose them.
is it possible?
or i need to get there only with the real documents? or i can use the ref number?

tnx

[JAJ]

You should be admitted as a visitor with your Israeli passport.

A Subject Access request (for information held about you) to the Home Office costs GBP10 and they must respond within 40 days.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/navigation/foi/

Other than that I don't think a free forum can help you very much more. Where are your parents and brother and sister? Can they not help you a little?

[tevel3]

ok, tnx u for all the help!