Senator wants new migrants to speak English

[esharknz]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 60198.html

There is some reference to the english language test that will be taken in the future with citizenship as well.

It will be interesting to see if the english language test will be a blanket test of all non-EU nationals or not. The UK, for example, has done this in the past (I recall the old HSMP required, at a time, that people from countries that had english as their native tongue proved they could speak it). Others may have already shown it in other ways as well. I don't actually recall meeting ANY immigrant in this country who couldn't speak english.

[ca.funke]

Under 2004/38/EC, language tests for EU-citizens and their family-members are ILLEGAL.

(Germany tried to introduce the same and had to back off, at least for the above mentioned group)

I have to say that personally I think that language is important and should be tested, but under very reasonable conditions. (most certainly NOT at the airport or port...)

It is somehow telling, that Irish is an official language both here and in the European Union, and (although a bit theoretical) competency in this language isn't even mentioned...

[ashimashi]

While in theory it might be a good idea, from the point of view of government one has to look at the cost/benefit balance here. The benefit is weeding out those who do not speak enough English from permanent residence / citizenship, but it will only be a very small percentage of people that won't pass such test and whether the benefits justify the cost of developing, administrating and developing such tests is highly doubted. It will only add more headache and bureaucracy...

Also there will be 2 more issue in such daft proposals:

1. What about EU Migrant? They have an absolute right to settle here regardless of their English language abilities. Are they going to be exempt? Then people can complain about discrimination and constitutional issues.
2. What about a non-EU family member or parent of an Irish citizen? This again will conflict with their other rights.

All in all I think it's a daft and stupid suggestion by some senator from one of the more fascist constituencies harping on people's xenophobic fears.

[porkpie]

In a fashion you can see the logic of people needing to speak English - even if it is basic stuff - that's part of the concept of fitting in with the community you wish to join; what would you do in an emergency if a loved one was sick or some other situation.....?

However, it seems that the Irish government really has no concept of the law they're operating under (EU).

PP

[86ti]

1. What about EU Migrant?
2. What about a non-EU family member?

If Christian is right then these two groups wouldn't need proof of language abilities to come and reside int the country. I think he is correct.

But if one wants to obtain citizenship then this person is subject to national law.

[Christophe]

Under 2004/38/EC, language tests for EU-citizens and their family-members are ILLEGAL.

Although not necessarily for naturalisation applications, I think.

But back to immigration, one way around the English—Gaelic issue would be to say that a satisfactory knowledge of Gaelic was acceptable: the number of people who would successfully "pass" on that basis would be tiny, and the number of people who would know sufficient Gaelic but not sufficient English would (I predict) be zero.

When people in the UK apply for indefinite leave to remain now, they have to demonstrate a knowledge of English by one of a number of means, and for low-level speakers an improvement in ability it what is sought. I think what the British government was trying to avoid was the situation where people (mostly women, but not entirely) lived in the UK for years and years but spoke no English at all. And of course, people applying for indefinite leave to remain have already been in the UK for some years. A knowledge of Welsh or Scottish Gaelic is also acceptable.

I agree that testing, whenever it is carried out, has to be done under reasonable conditions, as noted above — not, for example, at an airport after a 12-hour flight with three tired and fractious children in tow! (Having said that of course, a native or highly competent English speaker might be happy enough to be examined at the airport, if an examination was a requirement, in order to "get it out of the way".)

It also needs to be realistic. In order to naturalise as Danish, for example (note naturalise again, not move to Denmark as an immigrant) a person has to speak Danish "in a natural accent"; depending how rigourously this is applied, it could effectively bar almost everyone who is not a very gifted linguist or who didn't learn the language at a fairly young age, since the acquisition of a fully natural accent in a foreign language that has learned in adulthood is notoriously difficult. Possibly that is in part the intention, I don't know. Presumably the testing envisaged here would be more realistic than that...

[ca.funke]

But if one wants to obtain citizenship then this person is subject to national law.

Although not necessarily for naturalisation applications, I think.

Sorry - what I was writing wasn't clear.

Relocating to (or visiting) a country per 2004/38/EC cannot be made subject to any conditions for EU-citizens and their family-members, except those outlined in or referred to in the directive.

Naturalisation is totally unrelated and may be made subject to eating Irish Stew, for all I know.

[ashimashi]

Guys, I've posted an article about this proposal on my website: http://www.persianpaddy.com/

It would be greatly appreciated if you could have a read of it and leave me your comments there, too.

[iamwhoever]

There are several countries that require language tests for naturalisation, and I don't see an issue with it. I mean, if one wants to become a citizen of a country, I think one should show that one has assimilated to the culture, this includes language. One shouldn't just take another citizenship for convenience, there should be loyalty to that country. I don't see how anyone could have loyalty for a country they don't know.

I believe EU-nationals are irrelevant since the test will only be required for those persons wishing to become naturalised as a citizen. I don't see an EU-national wanting to become a citizen of another EU country. I don't really see the point since there is free movement, with the exception of voting rights. However, there are countries like the Netherlands who don't allow dual citizenship, except through marriage.

Being from the US, a country that has no official language and doesn't require a language test, though you must be able to take the citizenship test, which I believe is offered in both English and Spanish, there needs to be something to make immigration work.

Just a thought. Personally, I love language, and I hope to learn more languages.

[ashimashi]

There are several countries that require language tests for naturalisation, and I don't see an issue with it. I mean, if one wants to become a citizen of a country, I think one should show that one has assimilated to the culture, this includes language. One shouldn't just take another citizenship for convenience, there should be loyalty to that country. I don't see how anyone could have loyalty for a country they don't know.

I believe EU-nationals are irrelevant since the test will only be required for those persons wishing to become naturalised as a citizen. I don't see an EU-national wanting to become a citizen of another EU country. I don't really see the point since there is free movement, with the exception of voting rights. However, there are countries like the Netherlands who don't allow dual citizenship, except through marriage.

Being from the US, a country that has no official language and doesn't require a language test, though you must be able to take the citizenship test, which I believe is offered in both English and Spanish, there needs to be something to make immigration work.

Just a thought. Personally, I love language, and I hope to learn more languages.

Ofcourse, what you say makes perfect sense, and I'd go further than that, even for permanent residence a basic language test won't do any harm.

However this is not what she said. She didn't mention citizenship or any of what you said, she just threw in some sound bites and snippets in order to jump on the band wagon and gain herself some publicity in a subject that she has no clue about...

[mktsoi]

Under 2004/38/EC, language tests for EU-citizens and their family-members are ILLEGAL.

Although not necessarily for naturalisation applications, I think.

But back to immigration, one way around the English—Gaelic issue would be to say that a satisfactory knowledge of Gaelic was acceptable: the number of people who would successfully "pass" on that basis would be tiny, and the number of people who would know sufficient Gaelic but not sufficient English would (I predict) be zero.

When people in the UK apply for indefinite leave to remain now, they have to demonstrate a knowledge of English by one of a number of means, and for low-level speakers an improvement in ability it what is sought. I think what the British government was trying to avoid was the situation where people (mostly women, but not entirely) lived in the UK for years and years but spoke no English at all. And of course, people applying for indefinite leave to remain have already been in the UK for some years. A knowledge of Welsh or Scottish Gaelic is also acceptable.

I agree that testing, whenever it is carried out, has to be done under reasonable conditions, as noted above — not, for example, at an airport after a 12-hour flight with three tired and fractious children in tow! (Having said that of course, a native or highly competent English speaker might be happy enough to be examined at the airport, if an examination was a requirement, in order to "get it out of the way".)

It also needs to be realistic. In order to naturalise as Danish, for example (note naturalise again, not move to Denmark as an immigrant) a person has to speak Danish "in a natural accent"; depending how rigourously this is applied, it could effectively bar almost everyone who is not a very gifted linguist or who didn't learn the language at a fairly young age, since the acquisition of a fully natural accent in a foreign language that has learned in adulthood is notoriously difficult. Possibly that is in part the intention, I don't know. Presumably the testing envisaged here would be more realistic than that...

i have no problem about testing or anything in languages, but like some of the post in this topic. is this legal according to the EU directive? or this is just another talk to up like the irish government imposed to the legal migrants like they screwed up in the EU1. the other thing i have concerned in the language test is the legality in the irish law itself. sounds like the irish government is going to impose to everyone instead of the new applicants! it means they will ask everyone to do the language test even you submitted you application before they changed the citizenship requirement. now now, this is very wrong, isnt it?