Fingerprinting for Asylum Seekers only?

[esharknz]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 63150.html

I was under the impression that all non-EU nationals were to be fingerprinted, hence the increase in the registration fee?
I thought 1,500 going through Burgh Quay sounded like a usually weekly volume of all non-EU nationals being processed.

[ashimashi]

I think it's a case of the idiot editor not knowing the difference between "foreign national" and "asylum seeker" !!!! He's using them interchangeably across the article...

[esharknz]

Yeah,

I thought 1,500 people per week of all descriptions (workers, students etc) would try to register at Burgh Quay each week, not only asylum seekers!

[ca.funke]

The headline

"1,500 fingerprinted in non-EU asylum seeker crackdown"

suggests that there must also be "EU asylum seekers". Otherwise it wouldn't be necessary to explicitly mention "non-EU asylum seeker"s... I wonder where these "EU asylum seekers" are...

I do not condemn fingerprinting asylum-seekers. This shows that European Integration can work, Ireland and the UK's refusal to fully implement "Schengen" is -again- proven completely senseless.

[archigabe]

In related news...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 548118.ece

[iamwhoever]

I think the article is trying to point out that the reason for the fingerprinting is to stop asylum seekers from abusing the system within the EU; however, since they don't want to be criticised for just fingerprinting asylum seekers, they have decided to fingerprint all non-EU nationals. They have a reason for that too, like Interpol, but most wouldn't have proper documents to register if that were the case. I don't believe most would even attempt to register. However, I think the article could've been clearer. It does seem they are interpreting non-EU nationals as 'asylum seekers'

I can vouch that they are fingerprinting all non-EU nationals; I'm from the US and I was fingerprinted when registering last week.

They say they haven't had any refusals, but who would refuse if I they wish to remain in Ireland. I mean, I did it because I had to, but I don't agree with it. I can see it's use, especially in the case of asylum seekers; however, for those coming in as students or work permit holders, I don't see the point until the apply for LTR or naturalisation. I know the US uses fingerprints to conduction an FBI background search for Green Card (Permanent Residency) and Naturalisation applicants, but that makes more sense since you will be given permission to reside permanently.

I don't know. To a degree it made me feel like a criminal, but there isn't much I can do unless I wish to leave, and I don't, so I cooperated, as I'm sure anyone who wishes to remain in Ireland will.

[esharknz]

Thanks for your responses.
I did think that it was a blanket on all non-EU nationals, so I was a little stunned when the article referred to 1,500 asylum seekers.

[ashimashi]

I just sent this letter to the editor of the Irish Independent:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you to complain about a news article published in your paper's "National News" section on 26/08/2008 under the title "1,500 fingerprinted in non-EU asylum seeker crackdown". The standard of journalism in this piece is so low and the wording is so innacurate that casts a serious doubt on whether Mr. Brady has the slightest clue about what he's reporting. I am also disappointed at your editors to have let such poorly written piece be published in your paper. The title of the piece is the first thing that is wrong with it : "1,500 fingerprinted in non-EU asylum seeker crackdown" - "non-EU" asylum seekers as opposed to "EU" asylum seekers? Does Mr. Brady and your editors not know that there's no such thing as EU Asylum Seeker, as one can not effectively claim asylum in another EU country in he's a citizen of an EU country. Or is it the case that Mr. Brady and your editors don't know the difference between "Asylum Seeker" and "Foreign National living in Ireland", and just meant "non-EU nationals". For your and their information, the latter is consisting of a large group of people, including but not limited to Foreign workers on work permits and high-skill green cards, non-EU spouses and family of Irish and EU citizens, foreign students, and finally asylum seekers. To not understand the difference between these and use the two phrases interchangeably (as is the case in this piece of news) is erroneous, misleading and unhelpful, especially if it is deliberate. It is apparent from the first sentence of the article that this is the case with Mr. Brady, which reads "GARDAI have begun fingerprinting non-European nationals in a bid to reduce abuse of the asylum process". Now in contrast to the title it refers to non-European nationals (as opposed to non-EU Asylum Seerkers). Although not as obviously incorrect as the title, this is still incorrect: countries such as Turkey and Serbia are still in Europe and are European but are not member states of the European Union, and their citizens are required to register and be finger printed here.

The in the sentence immediately following the above, it states again : "About 1,500 asylum applicants were fingerprinted last week at the national immigration bureau headquarters in Burgh Quay, dublin, as the crackdown got under way." Here again you are using "Asylum Applicant" instead of foreign national. In fact this is so obviously wrong that makes one wonder whether this is a genuine mistake and one (especially a security editor) can be so blatently ignorant and ill-infortmed, or whether it's a deliberate misuse of wording to pursue some other goal.

Furthermore, Burgh Quay in Dublin is not where "Asylum Applications" are registered, it's the GNIB office that people go to get their registration stamp and card. It mostly services students and immigrants on work permit and green card as well as people that have already applied for asylum or have already been granted refugee status. Asylum applications are dealt with and registered by another section of Department of Justice, quality and law reform, not by GNIB registration office!

Further down the article, it states : "The decision to take fingerprints from people registering asylum applications was ...". Again you are using "asylum applications" incorrectly, this is not about asylum applications as explained above.

It is very disappointing to see such level of ignorance and to see that such poor reporting can pass through your editioral checks. I suggest you send Mr. Brady to a training course or advise him to study the most basic of immigration regulation before having him write pieces like this again, and I hope you increase your standard of reporting on this matter in the future and have your pieces proof read by someone who knows their "asylum seeker" from their "foreign nationals" and their "European Union" from their "Europe".

I would be grateful if you could publish this response or a shortened version of it in your paper and/or pass it on to Mr. Brady for comments.

Kind Regards
XXX XXXX
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX
Co. Wicklow
IRELAND
website: http://www.persianpaddy.com

[Christophe]

But then again, all visitors entering the USA on the visa-waiver program are finger-printed, are they not?

[ca.funke]

I know the US uses fingerprints to conduction an FBI background search for Green Card (Permanent Residency) and Naturalisation applicants, but that makes more sense since you will be given permission to reside permanently.

And you are here... not permanently?

I don't know. To a degree it made me feel like a criminal, but there isn't much I can do unless I wish to leave, and I don't, so I cooperated, as I'm sure anyone who wishes to remain in Ireland will.

In the US, everybody who wants to _visit_ has their fingerprints taken, no matter how long this _visit_ is.

I can vouch that they are fingerprinting all non-EU nationals; I'm from the US and I was fingerprinted when registering last week.

I can vouch that not all non-EU have their fingerprints taken. We picked up my wife's EU4Fam-card two weeks ago, she is from Lebanon. No fingerprints taken... (Or maybe that was before the system went into operation?)



All I wonder is why you compare Europe with the US, complaining you have to give your prints while (obviously) residing here permanently, while "we" have to give all 10 fingers for a visit to your country

Just seems illogical to me.

This leaves aside the question as to weather the whole thing makes sense at all

[86ti]

But then again, all visitors entering the USA on the visa-waiver program are finger-printed, are they not?

I think that's right. At least I was fingerprinted a month ago.

The Japanese have introduced similar procedures last year on entry for all short term visitors and non-permanent residents if I recall correctly (left the country before they could fingerprint me).

My wife was fingerprint when she applied for the EEA family permit in Japan.

[iamwhoever]

And you are here... not permanently?

Currently, no I am not. If I were, I would not be made to register with the GNIB every year. I am here on a Stamp 1A for the duration of 3.5 years, though I still must register every year. Afterwards, I may decide to stay and work on a Green Card, but still, I would not be here permanently because again it would require registration and renewal. On when I seek LTR or Naturalisation will I be officially seeking permanent residence. Until such, I am not considered a permanent resident.

In the US, everybody who wants to _visit_ has their fingerprints taken, no matter how long this _visit_ is.

If this is now the case, I completely disagree with it. However, I haven't kept on this since the last time my brother-in-law, who is a British Citizen, came to the US, which was a few years ago, and at that time, he wasn't required to give fingerprints. Again, I don't believe it should be in place. Frankly, there are a lot of things that the US has done/is doing that I don't believe in. The government hasn't been that of the people for years. Hence the reason I left.

I can vouch that not all non-EU have their fingerprints taken. We picked up my wife's EU4Fam-card two weeks ago, she is from Lebanon. No fingerprints taken... (Or maybe that was before the system went into operation?)

They just started last week. I went to the GNIB about 2 weeks ago the first time and it wasn't in place. I couldn't register because they hadn't received my last document from my sponsor (found out later that my sponsor hadn't even sent it yet), and they weren't taking finger prints. When I returned the following week, which was really only 4 days later, they had signs up and the fingerprint machine were all on. They machines were there the previous week, but they weren't being used yet.

All I wonder is why you compare Europe with the US, complaining you have to give your prints while (obviously) residing here permanently, while "we" have to give all 10 fingers for a visit to your country?

1. I was just telling my experience; that is all.
2. I've never claimed to be an expert on immigration in any country, so I may not be completely up to date with things. Most of what I have learned about US immigration has been through my sister and her husband who currently reside in the UK as he is a UK citizen. So, I apologise if I got some information wrong, but it's bound to happen on these forums, more often than not.
3. I am not residing here permanently. I am residing here for 3.5 years, or you may say indefinitely since I may have the option to remain on a Green Card upon completion of my training contract. However, there is a distinct difference. Read the immigration laws again. Being here on a Stamp 1/1A or Stamp 2/2A does not mean you reside here permanently, especially if you are on a 1A or either of the 2 since people on those stamps are recognised as being in the state as a student; therefore, not one second of your time spent in Ireland on those stamps counts as reckonable residence, which is the only kind of residence one is able to claim for LTR and Naturalisation purposes. Sure, currently I plan to try and stay on a Green Card following my training contract and possibly seek LTR and naturalisation, but that's years away and anything can happen between now and then.
4. Again, I think fingerprinting anyone who isn't applying for permanent residency or naturalisation, especially those visiting, is ridiculous.

Anyway, the fact is, any non-EU national can now be asked to give their fingerprints. People will have to deal. End of story.

[ca.funke]

Hi iamwhoever,

thanks for your explanations - I think we're on the same side

Knowing they only started fingerprinting last week makes me wonder if my wife WOULD have been fingerprinted!? This would probably be (I don't like to say this anymore) ILLEGAL considering 2004/38/EC.

Regards, Christian

[iamwhoever]

Hi iamwhoever,

thanks for your explanations - I think we're on the same side

Knowing they only started fingerprinting last week makes me wonder if my wife WOULD have been fingerprinted!? This would probably be (I don't like to say this anymore) ILLEGAL considering 2004/38/EC.

Regards, Christian

Yeah, I think we are on the same side. After re-reading my first post, I realised how it could be seen as a comparison, which wasn't my aim. I really think the fingerprinting thing is crazy, but then again, with the things going on in this world, can you really blame governments for wanting to be cautious.

I'm not sure if they are fingerprinting non-EU nationals who are spouses of EU-nationals. That would be illegal. And, of course, the GNIB and INIS websites mention nothing about this. I will be going there tomorrow to pick up my GNIB card and will re-read the sign about fingerprinting to see if there are any exception, like for the non-EU spouses of EU nationals. I'll post an update about it tomorrow.

Well, there was one thing posted on the INIS website, but it was a publication about the plans and why they are important, publish last year. It also talks about how will should help speed things up. That is something I will keep an eye on.

[ciaramc]

I just wanted to share some information.....

I live in Italy where for the past year they have been fingerprinting all non-EU when they are applying/renewing residence cards....now my husband non-EU visa required national ....was fingerprinted??? in May 2007 when applying for his RC....which by the way was refused??? We are now are in the process of appealing(waiting for the court to open ?? has been closed for vacation since August 1, will re-open 15 Sep can you believe it?)...I have heard of other spouses of Italians/EU citizen not being asked to have their fingerprints taken....cannot tell you why my husband had to!

Also Italy wants to implement as of 2010....all people applying for an national ID card be fingerprinted....yes that includes all Italians!

[iamwhoever]

I just wanted to share some information.....

I live in Italy where for the past year they have been fingerprinting all non-EU when they are applying/renewing residence cards....now my husband non-EU visa required national ....was fingerprinted??? in May 2007 when applying for his RC....which by the way was refused??? We are now are in the process of appealing(waiting for the court to open ?? has been closed for vacation since August 1, will re-open 15 Sep can you believe it?)...I have heard of other spouses of Italians/EU citizen not being asked to have their fingerprints taken....cannot tell you why my husband had to!

Also Italy wants to implement as of 2010....all people applying for an national ID card be fingerprinted....yes that includes all Italians!

That's crazy, really crazy!

[ciaramc]

I know.....first of all fingerprinting everybody???

I'm particularly bitter as we waited over a 1 year and a half for a responce from the immigration and in the end they refused him....why the hell did they need his fingerprints if they were going to refuse him? You have no idea!

[ashimashi]

You can always pretend you are German interior minister anyway
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/30 ... ropriated/

[MAKUSA]

I know.....first of all fingerprinting everybody???

I'm particularly bitter as we waited over a 1 year and a half for a responce from the immigration and in the end they refused him....why the hell did they need his fingerprints if they were going to refuse him? You have no idea!

My condolences but best of luck with your appeal, quick question are you an EU citizen or Italian citizen?

[ciaramc]

Irish citizen ....living in Italy 7 years! Have residence here (Italy)?