Pre action protocol - two applicants

[BigMo]

Hi all,

Rather frustratingly, HO have refused my parents' application for a 6 months visa for a second time. The reasons noted are fairly trivial (and in at least two instances not consistent with the submitted information). I am considering submitting a PAP (and liaising with a lawyer on this as well) but also keen to take into account the Forum's views so I can make an informed decision. I have set out below this in more detail. Any relevant thoughts/comments/experiences will be appreciated.

Background
- Parents live in Pakistan
- Father is a retired bank employee, now runs an agricultural farm
- Mother is a housewife
- Have a younger sister (married and settled in Pakistan
- Myself (also the Sponsor), live & work in the UK - both British Nationals (I am naturalised; my wife is British
citizen by birth)

First application
- My parents applied to visit in autumn 2018. I sponsored the visit.
- We provided the information in relation to my income and ability to sponsor, including remittances to my
father.
- Whilst we included the land ownership documents in Pakistan, we did not provide any additional
documents to demonstrate my father's financial circumstances.
- The applications were refused as we did not present an accurate reflection of my father's financial
circumstances (i.e. economic ties in home country).

Second application
- My parents reapplied in Feb 2020.
- We submitted the previously omitted information in relation to my father's financial circumstances,
including:
> Bank statements demonstrating remittance from the UK (c.PKR 1,440,000)
> Bank statements demonstrating regular income from sale of milk to a well known Swiss multinational
(including a letter from this company confirming our status as regular supplier, and the bank account
showing transactions with this multinational milk company) - this income is c.PKR 400,000 p.a.
> We also provided details of income from sale of sugarcane (seasonal). The Mill issues Computerised
Payments Receipts ("CPRs"), which can be 'cashed' at their local bank branch, or deposited to bank for
direct bank transfer from the Mill's bank accounts. In relation to this, we included a cover letter
explaining that Pakistan, being a predominantly cash based economy, we would normally cash out the
CPRs rather than depositing them in the bank account (this is common practice). Some of the CPRs
were deposited to my father's bank account, others were not.
> We further included land ownership documents, and provided details of family in Pakistan (my
maternal grandparents, my sister, cousins etc).
> I was the sponsor (again this was not challenged so not going into this too much here).

Refusal
The second application was also refused. Extracts from the refusal (and my comments) below:

I am aware that you were previously refused entry clearance on xx/xx/xxxx under
visa application number xxxx. I have considered your previous application
in addition to the documents and information you have submitted in this application
and I am not satisfied that you have met the Immigration Rules on this occasion for
the reasons set out below.

 The onus is on you to qualify for entry clearance based on your own circumstances
and your own intentions. You have said that your son will help you with this visit by
paying £800 towards the cost of your trip and providing you with accommodation
whilst you are in the United Kingdom. While I take that into account in assessing your
proposed maintenance and accommodation in the UK, this is only one aspect of the
visitor rules and this sponsorship does not satisfy me of your own intention to leave
the UK on completion of your visit.

 You have applied for a visa to visit your son in the UK for 1 month and 4 days. I
recognise that family visits are important however, I must consider the information
regarding your sponsor’s support of your visit separately in my assessment of your
application. In order to assess your intentions I must consider your circumstances in
your home country based on the information you have provided with your application.

 You state that you are self-employed as a farmer of dairy and agriculture and you
have an annual income of PKR1,000,000 (£5,052.86). You also state that have an
additional annual income of PKR1,440,000 (£7,276.13) from family and I am satisfied
that you receive this income. In support of your application, you have submitted two
bank statements in your name from bank (account number ending xxxx and xxxx).
You have also submitted a number of receipts from xxxxx Mills. However,
the bank statements provided do not demonstrate that you receive these funds as I
note that the deposits in the accounts do not reflect the amounts on these receipts We explained in the cover letter that not all CPRs are deposited to the bank account. However, some WERE deposited. The ECO seems to have completely disregarded the explanation in the cover letter & some of the deposits in the bank account!. You state that this income is exempt from tax and is therefore not declared on yoursubmitted FBR documents. I am therefore unable to substantiate your claimed
income from this source Aren't computerised payment receipts from a large corporate institution sufficient evidence in their own right?. I am therefore not satisfied that you have accurately presented your financial circumstances.

 You state you spend PKR150,000 (£757.93) each month which equates to
PKR1,800,000 (£9,095.16) each year. Taking into account all of your annual income,
this would leave you with PKR640,000 (£3,233.83) annual discretionary income.
However, I note that the funds in both of your accounts are regularly depleted
indicating that you utilise nearly all your income each month. For example, the
closing balance in your bank account (number ending xxx) was PKR58.15 (£0.29)
on 07/02/20, and the closing balance in your MCB account (number ending 1967)
was PKR17,715.33 (£89.51) on 12/02/20. This indicates that you spend significantly
more than stated in your application form. Again, this is speculative at best. As most of the farm income is not deposited in the bank account, it would be reflected in bank accounts to begin with. Also, we keep cash deposits at home rather than bank as visiting the bank is a bit of a chore when you live on a farm house miles away from the nearest bank ATM/branch!. Given the above, I am not satisfied that you have accurately presented your financial circumstances.

 I have considered the documents and information you have provided about your
personal and economic circumstances. I note that you intend to travel to the UK with
your wife, leaving behind no dependents not having dependents surely isn't a reason to refuse, I digress.. and you have family in the UK. You state
that you have family living in your home country; however, the documents submitted
do not demonstrate the current whereabouts of these family members The cover letter provided ample details of the whereabouts of the family - not sure providing pictures of them sleeping/walking/doing residential things around their homes is necessary!. I am not
satisfied that you have substantial ties outside of the UK to ensure you will leave at
the end of your proposed visit.

 Given the above, I am not satisfied that you have given an accurate account of your
circumstances and this undermines the credibility of your application to the extent
that I am not satisfied that you are a genuine visitor who would leave the UK at the
end of your proposed visit. Your application is therefore refused under paragraphs
V4.2 (a) and (c) of the Immigration Rules.

Further thoughts
I am now considering whether to submit a fresh application explaining the particular points (including perhaps a competent authority family tree - again this would not show their current whereabouts would it?!), or launch a JR (affordability is not an issue if that is the right answer). Interested in people's experiences/other members' views.

Many thanks

[Zerubbabel]

I feel there is an increase of refusals for parents / in-laws of naturalised British citizens.

This corresponds to an increase of people desperately trying to bring their parents to live with them in the UK. They are now seen as a high risk population when it comes to visitors visa.

not having dependents surely isn't a reason to refuse

Paradoxically, often having family in the UK plays against the applicant. The idea behind is that if an applicant has a stronger family network in the UK than in his home country, he then has a strong incentive to try also to stay in the UK.

Also, the fact that a person has family members established in the UK, means that there is a drive in the family to immigrate to the UK.

Showing the existence of family members is not enough. You need to show where they are. I have seen a gentlemen asking for a visitor visa and showing 4 sons. However, 2 of them were permanently in the UK, 1 permanently in Canada and 1 permanently in the US. In fact, he was the last person from that family in the country.

Often people get desperate and leaving their country becomes the prime concern. If they don't qualify under an immigration route, some use visitor visas then once in the UK, they apply for asylum, human rights, health grounds... The more people do that, the more visitors visas become difficult for everybody.

For me, a third attempt would trigger similar refusal. They are not convinced your parents are genuine visitors and further applications will just reinforce this idea in their opinion.

[Route to ILR]

Approach your local MP. Explain him everything. I know its very furstrating. U did everything to convence the ECO but when they made up their mind to not issue the visa they have 101 reasons to refuse your application.

[BigMo]

Yes I can start to visualise an ECO's thought process. However, they can't seem to be able to find the balance between being professionally sceptical (which is understandable and should be respected) & purely speculative (letting the imagination run wild!). I am sure that not all of them are like this, but they are being frankly incompetent, the HO have to have a mechanism to address that (hence the need to gather the feedback from you all haha before I spend £ on a PAP (lawyer's fees) or a JR). Appreciate your feedback though!

[Route to ILR]

Yes I can start to visualise an ECO's thought process. However, they can't seem to be able to find the balance between being professionally sceptical (which is understandable and should be respected) & purely speculative (letting the imagination run wild!). I am sure that not all of them are like this, but they are being frankly incompetent, the HO have to have a mechanism to address that (hence the need to gather the feedback from you all haha before I spend £ on a PAP (lawyer's fees) or a JR). Appreciate your feedback though!

Approach your MP man. it worked for me. Tell him how these incompetent ECO's refusing visit visas on baseless reasons.
I got my mother visit visa after 2 refusals. I approached my local MP. He said apply again and give me the Application reference number.I did the same and explained the refusal point in details. Submitted same documents. Guess what MP wrote me letter with copy of email he received from ECM in Abu dhabi that decision has been made on this application number. Next day mom got the call to collect the passport and visa granted.

Get your MP advise on this and see how much helpful he is on this matter.

[BigMo]

Yes I can start to visualise an ECO's thought process. However, they can't seem to be able to find the balance between being professionally sceptical (which is understandable and should be respected) & purely speculative (letting the imagination run wild!). I am sure that not all of them are like this, but they are being frankly incompetent, the HO have to have a mechanism to address that (hence the need to gather the feedback from you all haha before I spend £ on a PAP (lawyer's fees) or a JR). Appreciate your feedback though!

Approach your MP man. it worked for me. Tell him how these incompetent ECO's refusing visit visas on baseless reasons.
I got my mother visit visa after 2 refusals. I approached my local MP. He said apply again and give me the Application reference number.I did the same and explained the refusal point in details. Submitted same documents. Guess what MP wrote me letter with copy of email he received from ECM in Abu dhabi that decision has been made on this application number. Next day mom got the call to collect the passport and visa granted.

Get your MP advise on this and see how much helpful he is on this matter.

That's very helpful. I have just written to my MP. Hopefully he will respond! cheers

[Zerubbabel]

That's very helpful. I have just written to my MP. Hopefully he will respond! cheers

If the MP doesn't respond, don't chase him but chase in his assistance/secretary. Often assistants have more time to listen and can put your request in front at the right moment.

As for the refusal, the Caseworker doesn't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the visitor is not genuine. He just has to show that in the balance of probabilities, the visitor is not genuine. So it's never a certainty but just a probability. In criminal proceedings, people don't go prison because they are "probably" guilty. But when it comes to administrative applications, any doubt from the Caseworker is held against the applicant.

Try with the MP first then see what you get from that.

[BigMo]

Great, thank you both!

Will keep you posted on how it progresses.

[BigMo]

Hi all

Just interested in people's views/experiences with PAP. My parents visit visa was rejected a few months ago and we decided to apply for PAP. The HO has agreed to reconsider their decision (and have asked for more time due to Covid).

The PAP letter only refers to my father's application. My mother's application was refused because my father's application was refused (she is a financial dependent). My question is - if HO decide to change their decision, I assume both my parents will be granted the visa (i.e. we didn't need to submit a separate PAP for my mother as her entire case was based on being supported by my father). I have seen other examples in this forum where people had multiple applicants and got visa post successful PAP but it is not clear whether they only submitted a single PAP with lead applicant or multiple PAPs.

Any thoughts/experience would be appreciated.

Many thanks

[BigMo]

Hi all,

Following on from below, I received the following response from HO. I am not sure the extent to which I need to resubmit all documents - should this just be fresh bank statements (which they have clearly asked for) or should this be all documents resubmitted? Has anyone experienced this before? Will appreciate any comments.

HO Response ----------------------------------

Dear Customer,



Your application for a UK visa was refused and it was agreed that it would be reconsidered. However since then our office was closed because it was no longer possible to operate a visa service in accordance with Public Health guidelines.



However, due to the time that has passed since you were last contacted and the ongoing travel restrictions that remain in place, your travel plans and your personal circumstances may now be different. We are therefore contacting you to clarify your current circumstances and find out if you still wish for a reconsideration.



Please reply to this email stating which of the following options applies to you:



Option 1: You no longer intend to travel to the UK and wish to withdraw your reconsideration request at PAP



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘WITHDRAWAL OF RECONSIDERATION REQUEST’ and provide the following information:

Name ……….

Date of Birth…………

Application reference GWF…………….

Date……..…



Please note that if you withdraw your reconsideration request your visa application fee will not be refunded.



Option 2: You wish to continue with your visa reconsideration and there have been no change of circumstances since your applications was submitted.



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘NO CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES’ and provide the following information:



Name….

Date of Birth….

Application reference GWF….

Your new date of travel…

Your new purpose of travel…

How long do you intend to stay in the UK…



Your supporting documents that accompanied your original application will now be out of date. Please attach clear images of fresh supporting documents to your reply. Emails must be 5MB or less. If your email is bigger than this then please send the supporting documents separately but ensure you put your GWF number in the subject line of each email.



Option 3: You wish to continue with your visa reconsideration and there are changes in your personal circumstances that need to be considered



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES’ and provide the following information:



Name….

Date of Birth….

Application reference GWF….

Your new date of travel…

Your new purpose of travel….

How long do you intend to stay in the UK…



You will also need to explain what changes of circumstance there have been and attach a clear image of new supporting documents. Emails must be 5MB or less. If your email is bigger than this then please send the supporting documents separately but ensure you put the GWF number in the subject line of each email.



In all cases, please respond to this email by 22/08/2020 to avoid further delays to the reconsideration of your visa application.





Your supporting documents that accompanied your original application will now be out of date. Hence, please provide the below up to date documents:



Recent bank statement from applicant covering last 6 months
Recent bank statement from Sponsor covering last 6 months


If you are in any doubt about whether a change of circumstances is relevant please declare them anyway using process 3 above. Failure to declare a change of circumstances may be considered as deception and could lead to your application being refused and a ban on travelling to the UK in the future.



If we do not hear from you by the date mentioned above, we will make a decision on your application based on the information we already hold.



Thank you for your patience and co-operation.



UKVI Abu Dhabi Casework Team

[Zerubbabel]

Hello

Unless something changed, I think it will be Option 2 + submitting again an updated documents & travel plans.

That's a good development for you guys.

[AmazonianX]

Hi all,

Following on from below, I received the following response from HO. I am not sure the extent to which I need to resubmit all documents - should this just be fresh bank statements (which they have clearly asked for) or should this be all documents resubmitted? Has anyone experienced this before? Will appreciate any comments.
The fresh bank statements are important to most applications and particularly visit visas because among other things 1. it is a means to check that the sponsor can support the applicants and or
2. that the applicant can support their visit/holiday and have sufficient sustaining financial ties in home country to indicate they will return home/not use public funds while in UK.
So the statements they have asked for is also important to assess if there has been a change of circumstances.
If there are other documents submitted previously that a new one may better your application standing and or indicate change of circumstances should also be submitted.

HO Response ----------------------------------

Dear Customer,



Your application for a UK visa was refused and it was agreed that it would be reconsidered. However since then our office was closed because it was no longer possible to operate a visa service in accordance with Public Health guidelines.



However, due to the time that has passed since you were last contacted and the ongoing travel restrictions that remain in place, your travel plans and your personal circumstances may now be different. We are therefore contacting you to clarify your current circumstances and find out if you still wish for a reconsideration.



Please reply to this email stating which of the following options applies to you:



Option 1: You no longer intend to travel to the UK and wish to withdraw your reconsideration request at PAP



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘WITHDRAWAL OF RECONSIDERATION REQUEST’ and provide the following information:

Name ……….

Date of Birth…………

Application reference GWF…………….

Date……..…



Please note that if you withdraw your reconsideration request your visa application fee will not be refunded.



Option 2: You wish to continue with your visa reconsideration and there have been no change of circumstances since your applications was submitted.



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘NO CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES’ and provide the following information:



Name….

Date of Birth….

Application reference GWF….

Your new date of travel…

Your new purpose of travel…

How long do you intend to stay in the UK…



Your supporting documents that accompanied your original application will now be out of date. Please attach clear images of fresh supporting documents to your reply. Emails must be 5MB or less. If your email is bigger than this then please send the supporting documents separately but ensure you put your GWF number in the subject line of each email.



Option 3: You wish to continue with your visa reconsideration and there are changes in your personal circumstances that need to be considered



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES’ and provide the following information:



Name….

Date of Birth….

Application reference GWF….

Your new date of travel…

Your new purpose of travel….

How long do you intend to stay in the UK…



You will also need to explain what changes of circumstance there have been and attach a clear image of new supporting documents. Emails must be 5MB or less. If your email is bigger than this then please send the supporting documents separately but ensure you put the GWF number in the subject line of each email.



In all cases, please respond to this email by 22/08/2020 to avoid further delays to the reconsideration of your visa application.





Your supporting documents that accompanied your original application will now be out of date. Hence, please provide the below up to date documents:



Recent bank statement from applicant covering last 6 months
Recent bank statement from Sponsor covering last 6 months


If you are in any doubt about whether a change of circumstances is relevant please declare them anyway using process 3 above. Failure to declare a change of circumstances may be considered as deception and could lead to your application being refused and a ban on travelling to the UK in the future.



If we do not hear from you by the date mentioned above, we will make a decision on your application based on the information we already hold.



Thank you for your patience and co-operation.



UKVI Abu Dhabi Casework Team

[BigMo]

Great, thank you both, appreciate the comments.

[Raja2057]

Did you submit pap?
What is reply from HO about PAP how many days passed after you submitted documents for reconsideration?

[ti_abbasi2002]

Hi all,

Following on from below, I received the following response from HO. I am not sure the extent to which I need to resubmit all documents - should this just be fresh bank statements (which they have clearly asked for) or should this be all documents resubmitted? Has anyone experienced this before? Will appreciate any comments.

HO Response ----------------------------------

Dear Customer,



Your application for a UK visa was refused and it was agreed that it would be reconsidered. However since then our office was closed because it was no longer possible to operate a visa service in accordance with Public Health guidelines.



However, due to the time that has passed since you were last contacted and the ongoing travel restrictions that remain in place, your travel plans and your personal circumstances may now be different. We are therefore contacting you to clarify your current circumstances and find out if you still wish for a reconsideration.



Please reply to this email stating which of the following options applies to you:



Option 1: You no longer intend to travel to the UK and wish to withdraw your reconsideration request at PAP



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘WITHDRAWAL OF RECONSIDERATION REQUEST’ and provide the following information:

Name ……….

Date of Birth…………

Application reference GWF…………….

Date……..…



Please note that if you withdraw your reconsideration request your visa application fee will not be refunded.



Option 2: You wish to continue with your visa reconsideration and there have been no change of circumstances since your applications was submitted.



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘NO CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES’ and provide the following information:



Name….

Date of Birth….

Application reference GWF….

Your new date of travel…

Your new purpose of travel…

How long do you intend to stay in the UK…



Your supporting documents that accompanied your original application will now be out of date. Please attach clear images of fresh supporting documents to your reply. Emails must be 5MB or less. If your email is bigger than this then please send the supporting documents separately but ensure you put your GWF number in the subject line of each email.



Option 3: You wish to continue with your visa reconsideration and there are changes in your personal circumstances that need to be considered



Please reply to this email using your GWF reference number as the subject title along with the words ‘CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES’ and provide the following information:



Name….

Date of Birth….

Application reference GWF….

Your new date of travel…

Your new purpose of travel….

How long do you intend to stay in the UK…



You will also need to explain what changes of circumstance there have been and attach a clear image of new supporting documents. Emails must be 5MB or less. If your email is bigger than this then please send the supporting documents separately but ensure you put the GWF number in the subject line of each email.



In all cases, please respond to this email by 22/08/2020 to avoid further delays to the reconsideration of your visa application.





Your supporting documents that accompanied your original application will now be out of date. Hence, please provide the below up to date documents:



Recent bank statement from applicant covering last 6 months
Recent bank statement from Sponsor covering last 6 months


If you are in any doubt about whether a change of circumstances is relevant please declare them anyway using process 3 above. Failure to declare a change of circumstances may be considered as deception and could lead to your application being refused and a ban on travelling to the UK in the future.



If we do not hear from you by the date mentioned above, we will make a decision on your application based on the information we already hold.



Thank you for your patience and co-operation.



UKVI Abu Dhabi Casework Team

What is the outcome of ur case?.

[BigMo]

Awaiting response on reconsideration mate

[ti_abbasi2002]

Awaiting response on reconsideration mate

Any update? Did u get anything back?

[BigMo]

Still haven't heard anything

[Kam321]

@BigMo
All the best and keep us posted.

[ti_abbasi2002]

Still haven't heard anything

Any update? UKVI didn't ask u for passport to submit yet?

[BigMo]

Not yet - the case is with the Abu Dhabi team and it has been four weeks and haven't had an update. The date they gave us in response to the PAP was three months from July (so next month). Plan on asking my lawyer to follow up closer to the date.

[Waseem03]

Not yet - the case is with the Abu Dhabi team and it has been four weeks and haven't had an update. The date they gave us in response to the PAP was three months from July (so next month). Plan on asking my lawyer to follow up closer to the date.

my pap three months was completed on june 2020, but till now i didnt recevd any outcome from HO.

[ti_abbasi2002]

Not yet - the case is with the Abu Dhabi team and it has been four weeks and haven't had an update. The date they gave us in response to the PAP was three months from July (so next month). Plan on asking my lawyer to follow up closer to the date.

Any update in ur case?

[BigMo]

Still waiting mate, had a conversation with my lawyer, we had the acknowledgement from the Abu Dhabi team for the additional documents but no updates sense.

[BigMo]

We have been asked to re-submit passports so hoping it would be good news (fingers crossed!).