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After getting response of reconsideration on Pap on 6th July, they didn't contact us even though we sent paid email n got reply they are escalating our query with relevant department and we got a reply from Abu Dhabi UKVI dat our case is wid decision making team. Then again we raised the query that we r waiting from very long n we heard nothing yet as a result we got reply on 14th October "we should submit latest bank statements n other documents coz these documents are out of dated before 24th October" we sent requested documents and got a acknowledgement from UKVI Abu Dhabi receipt of requested documents n waiting for next stepsBigMo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:50 amWe submitted the passports over two weeks ago but have not yet heard anything back yet. I have included below a high level timeline for the application process:
Initial application: 25/02/2020
Refusal: 03/03/2020
PAP submitted: 04/05/2020
PAP acknowledgement and asking for more time (due to Covid): 14/05/2020
PAP accepted/decision withdrawn and reconsideration agreed: 16/06/2020
Deadline for reconsideration: 16/10/2020 (they asked for four months to reconsider due to Covid)
Request for additional documents: 12/08/2020
Additional documents submitted: 22/08/2020
Asked to resubmit passports: 07/10/2020
Passports submitted: 09/10/2020
Visa issuance decision email: Awaiting
Are you awaiting decision post docs submission as well?
Hope this helps!
Just reply to email which will come from UK Visas and Immigration n they are bound to u reply back each time u would send follow up email.BigMo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:30 pmAh right, it seems it is the Abu Dhabi team that is being the bottleneck in all cases. we would've expected the passports back by now (given it has been over two weeks) but no update yet. Will keep in mind the follow up point. Do you just reply back to their email to follow up or is there a particular email address you need to use?
Best of luck!
I think the refusal is solely on the basis that all income generated wasn't shown to the tax department in Pakistan which is FBR ,hence the Visa officer found it a person of not good character & untrustworthy as they already suspect visitors intentions of leaving at the end of visit.When they see a discrepancy somewhere else in application they start judging the entire case solely on that basis. That's why it is said little things can sometimes have bigger impactions & with HO under Tories every little thing is an issue.BigMo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:06 amHi all,
Rather frustratingly, HO have refused my parents' application for a 6 months visa for a second time. The reasons noted are fairly trivial (and in at least two instances not consistent with the submitted information). I am considering submitting a PAP (and liaising with a lawyer on this as well) but also keen to take into account the Forum's views so I can make an informed decision. I have set out below this in more detail. Any relevant thoughts/comments/experiences will be appreciated.
Background
- Parents live in Pakistan
- Father is a retired bank employee, now runs an agricultural farm
- Mother is a housewife
- Have a younger sister (married and settled in Pakistan
- Myself (also the Sponsor), live & work in the UK - both British Nationals (I am naturalised; my wife is British
citizen by birth)
First application
- My parents applied to visit in autumn 2018. I sponsored the visit.
- We provided the information in relation to my income and ability to sponsor, including remittances to my
father.
- Whilst we included the land ownership documents in Pakistan, we did not provide any additional
documents to demonstrate my father's financial circumstances.
- The applications were refused as we did not present an accurate reflection of my father's financial
circumstances (i.e. economic ties in home country).
Second application
- My parents reapplied in Feb 2020.
- We submitted the previously omitted information in relation to my father's financial circumstances,
including:
> Bank statements demonstrating remittance from the UK (c.PKR 1,440,000)
> Bank statements demonstrating regular income from sale of milk to a well known Swiss multinational
(including a letter from this company confirming our status as regular supplier, and the bank account
showing transactions with this multinational milk company) - this income is c.PKR 400,000 p.a.
> We also provided details of income from sale of sugarcane (seasonal). The Mill issues Computerised
Payments Receipts ("CPRs"), which can be 'cashed' at their local bank branch, or deposited to bank for
direct bank transfer from the Mill's bank accounts. In relation to this, we included a cover letter
explaining that Pakistan, being a predominantly cash based economy, we would normally cash out the
CPRs rather than depositing them in the bank account (this is common practice). Some of the CPRs
were deposited to my father's bank account, others were not.
> We further included land ownership documents, and provided details of family in Pakistan (my
maternal grandparents, my sister, cousins etc).
> I was the sponsor (again this was not challenged so not going into this too much here).
Refusal
The second application was also refused. Extracts from the refusal (and my comments) below:
I am aware that you were previously refused entry clearance on xx/xx/xxxx under
visa application number xxxx. I have considered your previous application
in addition to the documents and information you have submitted in this application
and I am not satisfied that you have met the Immigration Rules on this occasion for
the reasons set out below.
The onus is on you to qualify for entry clearance based on your own circumstances
and your own intentions. You have said that your son will help you with this visit by
paying £800 towards the cost of your trip and providing you with accommodation
whilst you are in the United Kingdom. While I take that into account in assessing your
proposed maintenance and accommodation in the UK, this is only one aspect of the
visitor rules and this sponsorship does not satisfy me of your own intention to leave
the UK on completion of your visit.
You have applied for a visa to visit your son in the UK for 1 month and 4 days. I
recognise that family visits are important however, I must consider the information
regarding your sponsor’s support of your visit separately in my assessment of your
application. In order to assess your intentions I must consider your circumstances in
your home country based on the information you have provided with your application.
You state that you are self-employed as a farmer of dairy and agriculture and you
have an annual income of PKR1,000,000 (£5,052.86). You also state that have an
additional annual income of PKR1,440,000 (£7,276.13) from family and I am satisfied
that you receive this income. In support of your application, you have submitted two
bank statements in your name from bank (account number ending xxxx and xxxx).
You have also submitted a number of receipts from xxxxx Mills. However,
the bank statements provided do not demonstrate that you receive these funds as I
note that the deposits in the accounts do not reflect the amounts on these receipts We explained in the cover letter that not all CPRs are deposited to the bank account. However, some WERE deposited. The ECO seems to have completely disregarded the explanation in the cover letter & some of the deposits in the bank account!. You state that this income is exempt from tax and is therefore not declared on yoursubmitted FBR documents. I am therefore unable to substantiate your claimed
income from this source Aren't computerised payment receipts from a large corporate institution sufficient evidence in their own right?. I am therefore not satisfied that you have accurately presented your financial circumstances.
You state you spend PKR150,000 (£757.93) each month which equates to
PKR1,800,000 (£9,095.16) each year. Taking into account all of your annual income,
this would leave you with PKR640,000 (£3,233.83) annual discretionary income.
However, I note that the funds in both of your accounts are regularly depleted
indicating that you utilise nearly all your income each month. For example, the
closing balance in your bank account (number ending xxx) was PKR58.15 (£0.29)
on 07/02/20, and the closing balance in your MCB account (number ending 1967)
was PKR17,715.33 (£89.51) on 12/02/20. This indicates that you spend significantly
more than stated in your application form. Again, this is speculative at best. As most of the farm income is not deposited in the bank account, it would be reflected in bank accounts to begin with. Also, we keep cash deposits at home rather than bank as visiting the bank is a bit of a chore when you live on a farm house miles away from the nearest bank ATM/branch!. Given the above, I am not satisfied that you have accurately presented your financial circumstances.
I have considered the documents and information you have provided about your
personal and economic circumstances. I note that you intend to travel to the UK with
your wife, leaving behind no dependents not having dependents surely isn't a reason to refuse, I digress.. and you have family in the UK. You state
that you have family living in your home country; however, the documents submitted
do not demonstrate the current whereabouts of these family members The cover letter provided ample details of the whereabouts of the family - not sure providing pictures of them sleeping/walking/doing residential things around their homes is necessary!. I am not
satisfied that you have substantial ties outside of the UK to ensure you will leave at
the end of your proposed visit.
Given the above, I am not satisfied that you have given an accurate account of your
circumstances and this undermines the credibility of your application to the extent
that I am not satisfied that you are a genuine visitor who would leave the UK at the
end of your proposed visit. Your application is therefore refused under paragraphs
V4.2 (a) and (c) of the Immigration Rules.
Further thoughts
I am now considering whether to submit a fresh application explaining the particular points (including perhaps a competent authority family tree - again this would not show their current whereabouts would it?!), or launch a JR (affordability is not an issue if that is the right answer). Interested in people's experiences/other members' views.
Many thanks
I think u r bit late of replying this post as his parent got visa on successful PAP recently.London22 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:48 pmI think the refusal is solely on the basis that all income generated wasn't shown to the tax department in Pakistan which is FBR ,hence the Visa officer found it a person of not good character & untrustworthy as they already suspect visitors intentions of leaving at the end of visit.When they see a discrepancy somewhere else in application they start judging the entire case solely on that basis. That's why it is said little things can sometimes have bigger impactions & with HO under Tories every little thing is an issue.BigMo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:06 amHi all,
Rather frustratingly, HO have refused my parents' application for a 6 months visa for a second time. The reasons noted are fairly trivial (and in at least two instances not consistent with the submitted information). I am considering submitting a PAP (and liaising with a lawyer on this as well) but also keen to take into account the Forum's views so I can make an informed decision. I have set out below this in more detail. Any relevant thoughts/comments/experiences will be appreciated.
Background
- Parents live in Pakistan
- Father is a retired bank employee, now runs an agricultural farm
- Mother is a housewife
- Have a younger sister (married and settled in Pakistan
- Myself (also the Sponsor), live & work in the UK - both British Nationals (I am naturalised; my wife is British
citizen by birth)
First application
- My parents applied to visit in autumn 2018. I sponsored the visit.
- We provided the information in relation to my income and ability to sponsor, including remittances to my
father.
- Whilst we included the land ownership documents in Pakistan, we did not provide any additional
documents to demonstrate my father's financial circumstances.
- The applications were refused as we did not present an accurate reflection of my father's financial
circumstances (i.e. economic ties in home country).
Second application
- My parents reapplied in Feb 2020.
- We submitted the previously omitted information in relation to my father's financial circumstances,
including:
> Bank statements demonstrating remittance from the UK (c.PKR 1,440,000)
> Bank statements demonstrating regular income from sale of milk to a well known Swiss multinational
(including a letter from this company confirming our status as regular supplier, and the bank account
showing transactions with this multinational milk company) - this income is c.PKR 400,000 p.a.
> We also provided details of income from sale of sugarcane (seasonal). The Mill issues Computerised
Payments Receipts ("CPRs"), which can be 'cashed' at their local bank branch, or deposited to bank for
direct bank transfer from the Mill's bank accounts. In relation to this, we included a cover letter
explaining that Pakistan, being a predominantly cash based economy, we would normally cash out the
CPRs rather than depositing them in the bank account (this is common practice). Some of the CPRs
were deposited to my father's bank account, others were not.
> We further included land ownership documents, and provided details of family in Pakistan (my
maternal grandparents, my sister, cousins etc).
> I was the sponsor (again this was not challenged so not going into this too much here).
Refusal
The second application was also refused. Extracts from the refusal (and my comments) below:
I am aware that you were previously refused entry clearance on xx/xx/xxxx under
visa application number xxxx. I have considered your previous application
in addition to the documents and information you have submitted in this application
and I am not satisfied that you have met the Immigration Rules on this occasion for
the reasons set out below.
The onus is on you to qualify for entry clearance based on your own circumstances
and your own intentions. You have said that your son will help you with this visit by
paying £800 towards the cost of your trip and providing you with accommodation
whilst you are in the United Kingdom. While I take that into account in assessing your
proposed maintenance and accommodation in the UK, this is only one aspect of the
visitor rules and this sponsorship does not satisfy me of your own intention to leave
the UK on completion of your visit.
You have applied for a visa to visit your son in the UK for 1 month and 4 days. I
recognise that family visits are important however, I must consider the information
regarding your sponsor’s support of your visit separately in my assessment of your
application. In order to assess your intentions I must consider your circumstances in
your home country based on the information you have provided with your application.
You state that you are self-employed as a farmer of dairy and agriculture and you
have an annual income of PKR1,000,000 (£5,052.86). You also state that have an
additional annual income of PKR1,440,000 (£7,276.13) from family and I am satisfied
that you receive this income. In support of your application, you have submitted two
bank statements in your name from bank (account number ending xxxx and xxxx).
You have also submitted a number of receipts from xxxxx Mills. However,
the bank statements provided do not demonstrate that you receive these funds as I
note that the deposits in the accounts do not reflect the amounts on these receipts We explained in the cover letter that not all CPRs are deposited to the bank account. However, some WERE deposited. The ECO seems to have completely disregarded the explanation in the cover letter & some of the deposits in the bank account!. You state that this income is exempt from tax and is therefore not declared on yoursubmitted FBR documents. I am therefore unable to substantiate your claimed
income from this source Aren't computerised payment receipts from a large corporate institution sufficient evidence in their own right?. I am therefore not satisfied that you have accurately presented your financial circumstances.
You state you spend PKR150,000 (£757.93) each month which equates to
PKR1,800,000 (£9,095.16) each year. Taking into account all of your annual income,
this would leave you with PKR640,000 (£3,233.83) annual discretionary income.
However, I note that the funds in both of your accounts are regularly depleted
indicating that you utilise nearly all your income each month. For example, the
closing balance in your bank account (number ending xxx) was PKR58.15 (£0.29)
on 07/02/20, and the closing balance in your MCB account (number ending 1967)
was PKR17,715.33 (£89.51) on 12/02/20. This indicates that you spend significantly
more than stated in your application form. Again, this is speculative at best. As most of the farm income is not deposited in the bank account, it would be reflected in bank accounts to begin with. Also, we keep cash deposits at home rather than bank as visiting the bank is a bit of a chore when you live on a farm house miles away from the nearest bank ATM/branch!. Given the above, I am not satisfied that you have accurately presented your financial circumstances.
I have considered the documents and information you have provided about your
personal and economic circumstances. I note that you intend to travel to the UK with
your wife, leaving behind no dependents not having dependents surely isn't a reason to refuse, I digress.. and you have family in the UK. You state
that you have family living in your home country; however, the documents submitted
do not demonstrate the current whereabouts of these family members The cover letter provided ample details of the whereabouts of the family - not sure providing pictures of them sleeping/walking/doing residential things around their homes is necessary!. I am not
satisfied that you have substantial ties outside of the UK to ensure you will leave at
the end of your proposed visit.
Given the above, I am not satisfied that you have given an accurate account of your
circumstances and this undermines the credibility of your application to the extent
that I am not satisfied that you are a genuine visitor who would leave the UK at the
end of your proposed visit. Your application is therefore refused under paragraphs
V4.2 (a) and (c) of the Immigration Rules.
Further thoughts
I am now considering whether to submit a fresh application explaining the particular points (including perhaps a competent authority family tree - again this would not show their current whereabouts would it?!), or launch a JR (affordability is not an issue if that is the right answer). Interested in people's experiences/other members' views.
Many thanks
@bigmo did u receive ur passport back? I submitted in islamabd office after succesfull pap still waiting for passports. Did they sent u email also which they sends normally for fresh applications concluded or issued??
Not yet, looking at a couple of other posts, it seems to be around a week. As the issued email was received last Wednesday, I am expecting a message on Wednesday.
Hi mate, my parents' PAP was submitted by our lawyer so not sure about 3. Claimants details were my parents. Don't know if the lawyer included any interested parties (certainly wasn't me). Not sure about the third point I'm afraid.Kam321 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:46 amHi @BigMo,
Need some confirmations from you regarding PAP.
1- Claimant Details- Did you provide your details?
2- The details of any interested parties- Did you provide your parents details?
3- Did you mention anything about Protective Costs Order (an order that the claimant will not be liable for the costs of the defendant or any other party or to limit such liability) in your PAP?
Not yet, looking at a couple of other posts, it seems to be around a week. As the issued email was received last Wednesday, I am expecting a message on Wednesday.
Route to ILR wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:23 pmApproach your MP man. it worked for me. Tell him how these incompetent ECO's refusing visit visas on baseless reasons.BigMo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:08 pmYes I can start to visualise an ECO's thought process. However, they can't seem to be able to find the balance between being professionally sceptical (which is understandable and should be respected) & purely speculative (letting the imagination run wild!). I am sure that not all of them are like this, but they are being frankly incompetent, the HO have to have a mechanism to address that (hence the need to gather the feedback from you all haha before I spend £ on a PAP (lawyer's fees) or a JR). Appreciate your feedback though!
I got my mother visit visa after 2 refusals. I approached my local MP. He said apply again and give me the Application reference number.I did the same and explained the refusal point in details. Submitted same documents. Guess what MP wrote me letter with copy of email he received from ECM in Abu dhabi that decision has been made on this application number. Next day mom got the call to collect the passport and visa granted.
Get your MP advise on this and see how much helpful he is on this matter.
