Our new immigrations minister out of touch

[Siggi]

I read the newspapers this weekend, noting that the new immigration minster Mr Woolas now wants to reduce immigration numbers, because of the down turn in the economy.

He proposes to put limits on number of non EU members entering the UK, when in fact the problem is not non EU members giving the rise in immigration figures at all.

It is the new EU members that are the cause of the problem, flooding in at will.
The restriction should placed on un-skilled,non English speaking, new EU members.

My rant for the day!

[paulp]

Lots of Eastern European immigrants are already leaving because of the falling pound (all those savings they've accumulated are now falling in value when converted to their home currency) and because of the fall in employment levels.

[Wanderer]

Ali G had it right in 'Inda House' - we should only let the fit ones in.

[skillipedia]

Right now, he flipped completely. this time the spin didn't work.

As for those who are leaving, I always thought those who are in the UK, they are staying for a reason: work, business or families; otherwise anybody will be very happy to step out of this country

Do you think all those immigrants - legals and illegals- would come here if they had a decent income back home?

[BAI]

Siggi - you're wrong. You cannot limit the number of EEA nationals entering the UK. That's the whole point of the EU. Freedom of movement between member states. Instead I would have limited all those ppl from India, Africa and any other third world countries starting from 1962. Now we are suffering the consequences. Many of them don't speak a word of English and have never done 1 day's worth of work in their lives. They're just queueing up for the dole and do sod all. Many of them are here illegally and commit crimes. EEA citizens are hard working and law-abiding citizens (well most of them anyway). If I was immigration minister I'd start removing the ppl who don't contribute anything to society...

[Siggi]

BAI, pity you did not read or understand what I said.

I never said that you can limit the numbers of EU citizen entering the UK.

But I did say, is that since we have this wonderful singing dancing monster called the EU.
Many new members from the former Warsaw Pac countries, who really have no lie ties to the UK either through language or cultural.This freedom of movement only benefit's the unskilled types from eastern Europe. Skilled people who need to enter will aways find a way into a country all beit difficult.

People from parts of Africa and India have strong ties with the UK, with many of them shedding blood for King/Queen and country, so why should these people be cold shoulder?

[dnicky]

Instead I would have limited all those ppl from India, Africa and any other third world countries starting from 1962. Now we are suffering the consequences. Many of them don't speak a word of English and have never done 1 day's worth of work in their lives. They're just queueing up for the dole and do sod all. Many of them are here illegally and commit crimes. EEA citizens are hard working and law-abiding citizens (well most of them anyway).

Hold on. How are you so sure that all the third world nationals are good for nothing? You better watch your remarks.

[Christophe]

BAI, we need to remember that the majority of people with an African or Asian background who live in the UK are not in the country illegally, and the majority do contribute to British society...

[sakura]

Siggi - you're wrong. You cannot limit the number of EEA nationals entering the UK. That's the whole point of the EU. Freedom of movement between member states. Instead I would have limited all those ppl from India, Africa and any other third world countries starting from 1962. Now we are suffering the consequences. Many of them don't speak a word of English and have never done 1 day's worth of work in their lives. They're just queueing up for the dole and do sod all. Many of them are here illegally and commit crimes. EEA citizens are hard working and law-abiding citizens (well most of them anyway). If I was immigration minister I'd start removing the ppl who don't contribute anything to society...

I would argue that people from these parts of the world (India, Africa and the Caribbean) are just as likely to speak English and have cultural ties to the UK than some EEA countries, because of the impact of British colonialism. Most of the Caribbean speak English (as either their joint mother-tongue or their only mother-tongue). And Indians, by the way, are considered the community that does best in terms of upward social mobility (education, income and profession), sometimes outdoing the 'native' white English/British populations.

As for your general comments; if you have any statistics to prove that many people from these parts of the world are 'on the dole' and thus don't contribute anything, then please do share your resources. I don't disagree that some ethnic communities have a disproportinately large unemployment rate, but that could be partly explained by the failure of British (immigration/integration) politics and employment discrimination than the simplistic view that such people are lazy.

I'd also like to know where you got your statistics from that many people from these parts of the world commit crimes?

[Wanderer]

Many new members from the former Warsaw Pac countries, who really have no lie ties to the UK either through language or cultural.

I would argue a great many have, a lot of Poles, Czechs, Baltics, and Ukrainians (ok not EU) settled here after WW2 after fighting the Axis forces, so there is a connection.

Otherwise I agree with u!

[skillipedia]

BAI, you are an indiot and there is no need to go in details.

[hamadauk123]

Siggi - you're wrong. You cannot limit the number of EEA nationals entering the UK. That's the whole point of the EU. Freedom of movement between member states. Instead I would have limited all those ppl from India, Africa and any other third world countries starting from 1962. Now we are suffering the consequences. Many of them don't speak a word of English and have never done 1 day's worth of work in their lives. They're just queueing up for the dole and do sod all. Many of them are here illegally and commit crimes. EEA citizens are hard working and law-abiding citizens (well most of them anyway). If I was immigration minister I'd start removing the ppl who don't contribute anything to society...

@bai i know a lots of eu friends claiming benefit in their home country and here also when we say eu means they are not from third world and they can get job in thier home country so why they did move to uk if they can manage to live in thier home country ??

[yewhongwei79]

Non-EU people come to UK to work legally - contribute to tax, NI, no social benefits (mostly high-skills jobs but require VISA)
Non-EU people come to UK to work illegally - doesn't contribute to tax, NI, but still no social benefits (mostly low skills jobs)

EU people come to UK to work legally - contribute to tax, NI, make full use of social benefits (range from low-skill to high-skill jobs, no visa is required) from day 1
EU people come to UK to work illegally .... err... they don't have to.

So tell me, which group of people have more impact to UK societies, in terms of taking away local job opportunities, overcrowded, adding burdens to UK social benefits system .... etc?

[BAI]

UK should close its doors to all foreigners except ppl from the EU. Europe is for Europeans and not for foreigners from 3rd world countries.

[whirly]

UK should close its doors to all foreigners except ppl from the EU. Europe is for Europeans and not for foreigners from 3rd world countries.

This is a pointless, offensive line of argument. Why do you persist?

As someone who falls into yewhongwei79's 'Non-EU people come to UK to work legally - contribute to tax, NI, no social benefits (mostly high-skills jobs but require VISA)' group, I take exception to BAI's continued xenophobic comments on this thread - not to mention yewhongwei79's seeming support for BAI's position.

Back to the topic of the original post, I think all immigrants in the UK have cause to be worried when people like Mr. Woolas start pointing fingers at them.

[Casa]

BAI. If Europe should only be for Europeans, then maybe British Nationals should be prevented from emigrating to other parts of the world.

[Christophe]

Back to the topic of the original post, I think all immigrants in the UK have cause to be worried when people like Mr. Woolas start pointing fingers at them.

Well, to be fair, wasn't Mr Woolas talking primarily about people who might be immigrating to the UK in the future rather about people already in the UK? But in any case, he seems to have retracted his comments somewhat.

... not to mention yewhongwei79's seeming support for BAI's position.

Actually, I read yewhongwei79's comments the other way around — as not offering support to BAI's position.

[hamadauk123]

UK should close its doors to all foreigners except ppl from the EU. Europe is for Europeans and not for foreigners from 3rd world countries.

i guess you are not from UK better go back to where you come from and get job in farm. great Britain they doing good for not joining EU. 50% of UK incomes taxes from third world workers .

[Siggi]

BAI, if Europe is such a wonderful place or should I say Czech Republic, why dont you return to the Czech Republic and continue to spread your dearly beloved remarks there?

For all the faults of the UK, freedom of speach is one thing we guarantee and respect.
Maybe you should go away a learn the word respect in your home country, and by the way before you start insulting people's countries as 3rd world look at Czech Republic very closely before calling other countries 3rd world. I would say its stuck in the 18 century.

[Thandia]

Non-EU people come to UK to work legally - contribute to tax, NI, no social benefits (mostly high-skills jobs but require VISA)
Non-EU people come to UK to work illegally - doesn't contribute to tax, NI, but still no social benefits (mostly low skills jobs)

EU people come to UK to work legally - contribute to tax, NI, make full use of social benefits (range from low-skill to high-skill jobs, no visa is required) from day 1
EU people come to UK to work illegally .... err... they don't have to.

So tell me, which group of people have more impact to UK societies, in terms of taking away local job opportunities, overcrowded, adding burdens to UK social benefits system .... etc?

I always wonder why people assume overstayers (illegals in most people's books) don't pay tax & NI. No employer can employ someone & not deduct tax & NI contributions as long as these people are paid by BACS or cheque. Few employers pay cash in hand now & as long as someone's working, they will pay tax & NI!!! You do not actually need an NI number to start work, even the Inland Revenue says so. Similarly you can only apply for a NINO where there is an offer of employment or when you are already employed. A lot of employers don't follow up whether or not you have one

I know because I work with a lotta asylum seekers/overstayers etc who work & still receive a payslip with NI & tax deductions. I'm sure that people who've put in applications based on the 14 year long residency will attest to this.

Stop peddling untruths.

[Wanderer]

Non-EU people come to UK to work legally - contribute to tax, NI, no social benefits (mostly high-skills jobs but require VISA)
Non-EU people come to UK to work illegally - doesn't contribute to tax, NI, but still no social benefits (mostly low skills jobs)

EU people come to UK to work legally - contribute to tax, NI, make full use of social benefits (range from low-skill to high-skill jobs, no visa is required) from day 1
EU people come to UK to work illegally .... err... they don't have to.

So tell me, which group of people have more impact to UK societies, in terms of taking away local job opportunities, overcrowded, adding burdens to UK social benefits system .... etc?

I always wonder why people assume overstayers (illegals in most people's books) don't pay tax & NI. No employer can employ someone & not deduct tax & NI contributions as long as these people are paid by BACS or cheque. Few employers pay cash in hand now & as long as someone's working, they will pay tax & NI!!! You do not actually need an NI number to start work, even the Inland Revenue says so. Similarly you can only apply for a NINO where there is an offer of employment or when you are already employed. A lot of employers don't follow up whether or not you have one

I know because I work with a lotta asylum seekers/overstayers etc who work & still receive a payslip with NI & tax deductions. I'm sure that people who've put in applications based on the 14 year long residency will attest to this.

Stop peddling untruths.

They might well pay tax/NI but they may well cost extra BA admin time, removal time, flights etc so the net effect is probably nil

[Mr Rusty]

There is an extraordinary anomaly in the NINO system which enables illegal workers to make NI contributions against fictitious or "stolen" NI numbers, but the Inland Revenue seem to have no way of noticing if contributions from two different sources are made against the same number. Of course, there's no incentive for them to do anything about it, because they're not bothered where the money comes from.
I once discussed this with a guy in the Revenue, who said that the only time when questions are asked is if the genuine NINO-holder loses his job and claims benefit, while somewhere out there contributions are still being recorded......

[Thandia]

There is an extraordinary anomaly in the NINO system which enables illegal workers to make NI contributions against fictitious or "stolen" NI numbers, but the Inland Revenue seem to have no way of noticing if contributions from two different sources are made against the same number. Of course, there's no incentive for them to do anything about it, because they're not bothered where the money comes from.
I once discussed this with a guy in the Revenue, who said that the only time when questions are asked is if the genuine NINO-holder loses his job and claims benefit, while somewhere out there contributions are still being recorded......

ITA Mr Rusty. They contribute & this works out very well for the IR. Sorting it out would not benefit them but would result in a loss in revenie.

[ztech]

I agree with the OP that there are far too many Europeans in the UK. They cannot speak English and also have no skills.

As there's no restrictions on them becuase of EU, they have flooded in a LOT and have thus increased the population. Trust me, everyday every minute in Central London trains, you see them with bags.

But, there are also Asians and Africans who are unskilled and they just claim benefits here.

However, Asians and Africans are better at English and are more skilled. Did you know that your local Chicken n Chips Asian man can be a student who's doing MBA or a Postgraduate course ? Nope, I am not kidding.


Only skilled ppl should be allowed into the country and non-EU ppl should be favoured over EU ppl.

[paulp]

I always wonder why people assume overstayers (illegals in most people's books) don't pay tax & NI. No employer can employ someone & not deduct tax & NI contributions as long as these people are paid by BACS or cheque. Few employers pay cash in hand now & as long as someone's working, they will pay tax & NI!!! You do not actually need an NI number to start work, even the Inland Revenue says so. Similarly you can only apply for a NINO where there is an offer of employment or when you are already employed. A lot of employers don't follow up whether or not you have one

I know because I work with a lotta asylum seekers/overstayers etc who work & still receive a payslip with NI & tax deductions. I'm sure that people who've put in applications based on the 14 year long residency will attest to this.

Stop peddling untruths.

Employers can no longer afford to put illegals "on the books". If UKBA asks to see the payroll and they can't prove that their employees are legal, that's a £10k fine per illegal employee.