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Apologies, my aunt through same as my mum FRB not feb. I should also note all of them currently hold irish passports.
This is interesting. I have just become a citizen after applying through associations. However I had four years residency when I applied.handoubleu wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:51 amI applied for citizenship through Irish associations relatively prematurely. Normally, the general rule of thumb being you have minimum 3 years reckonable residence. I applied after 1. Therefore, I was not entirely surprised that it was denied.
However, what I am now uncertain on is two-fold:
1) in the recommendation to the minister they stipulated that my “associations” were not sufficiently strong. My associations being my mother through FRB, my aunt through FEB, my grandmother being the daughter of my great-grandmother who was born in the State. I am not certain how much stronger an association can get? I am aware assent has been criticised, but if my mother or father were citizens at the time I was born then I would not apply via naturalisation nor would I apply via naturalisation if my grandmother were born in Ireland (I would have applied through FRB). As such, it seems flawed to say the association is not strong. Is this something JR would shed light on?
2) The ministers direct note was that I was now in a position to acquire more residency to “apply the Standard Adult [route].” This is not clear whether the Minister meant waiting the typical 3 years that applicants applying through Irish associations or the full 5 an apply through pure residency. I am may just apply again after the 3 year mark and hope it’s accepted on association with the additional residency, but it seems controversial to require applicants to get to the 3 year mark and then (when I am just shy of 3 years), in essence, punish the applicant for building up residency by requiring them to wait until 5 years after all? Especially since I’m aware others have applied before the 5 year but after/on 3. . Would this be something that could be resolved via JR?
Your Irish association is based on your grandmother, who was not born in Ireland (I presume - based on your wording), so you going back 2 generations is not considered as sufficient to waive any residence conditions at all. You could only argue strong association if your grandmother or your mother is living in Ireland (or had lived in Ireland for quite a while).An association going back two generations without any other link to the State is generally considered as not sufficient to warrant consideration or the waiving of the statutory residence conditions.
The Op's association status is entirely valid because my situation is exactly the same and I was just granted citizenship. You cannot get a closer association by descent because the next step is being able to apply to the FBR yourself.littlerr wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:09 pmAll of your answers are answered on INIS's website.
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to- ... ociations/
The wording on waiving reckonable residence is:Your Irish association is based on your grandmother, who was not born in Ireland (I presume - based on your wording), so you going back 2 generations is not considered as sufficient to waive any residence conditions at all. You could only argue strong association if your grandmother or your mother is living in Ireland (or had lived in Ireland for quite a while).An association going back two generations without any other link to the State is generally considered as not sufficient to warrant consideration or the waiving of the statutory residence conditions.
In practice, the minister is often lenient and may choose to waive 2 years out of the 5 year residency requirement. You however have only 1 year residence, so it's not sufficient for you either way at all.
Had you had 3 years of residency, and you are able to prove that your mother/grandmother has some residency in Ireland or at least has some personal ties in Ireland, you might have a valid case.
The standard adult route means 5 year residency. The 3 year route is certain not the 'standard' one.
I don't think that's right. The definition of Irish association has always been vague and is up to interpretation of the Minister who has the total discretion. If the current minister interprets that having an Irish great grandmother is not enough, I can't see how that violates any part in the legislation or constitution.
The legislation says the minister has total discretion. Unless that can be proved unconstitutional, you can hardly argue anything about it.
Why not? I mean I agree that the legislation is vague and I don't believe that the Minister should have total discretion, but again the current legislation says the Minister has total discretion, and this discretion is communicated through the official website, you cannot just say that that one clause is illegal.
It's good that you brought up the six week rule and this 'black and white' thing. Throughout the world, there is not a single country's legislations that are 'black and white'. Wordings are always up to interpretation. Even when you fight all the way to the Supreme Court, rulings are sometimes not unanimous. Judges simply vote and the majority have the final say.
So I suppose the one of the things I would like clarification is that they said the associations wasn’t sufficiently strong. However, in the recommendation to the Minister it states that the associations are not solely my great grandmother but all four I mentioned - mother (granted Irish citizenship through FBR), grandmother (holds her citizenship via a different route of being the daughter of the person born in Ireland) great grandmother (being the relative born in Ireland/decent of her) and aunt (weakest leg, but has irish citizenship sams as my mum). So they department gave explicit reference to all of them as my associations, not purely my great grandmother and decided the associations were not sufficiently strong.littlerr wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:09 pmAll of your answers are answered on INIS's website.
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to- ... ociations/
The wording on waiving reckonable residence is:Your Irish association is based on your grandmother, who was not born in Ireland (I presume - based on your wording), so you going back 2 generations is not considered as sufficient to waive any residence conditions at all. You could only argue strong association if your grandmother or your mother is living in Ireland (or had lived in Ireland for quite a while).An association going back two generations without any other link to the State is generally considered as not sufficient to warrant consideration or the waiving of the statutory residence conditions.
I was granted citizenship by association a month ago. My mother has never lived in Ireland. I am not a researcher, I am not an athlete. Let's not make wild assumptions about how the department interpret associations when I am living proof the department are granting citizenship by association for people with Irish FBR parents.littlerr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:19 amOne thing you might be able to challenge them in the court is the definition of 'association'. The current interpretation seems to suggest that Irish association means the person you are associated with were naturally born Irish. They've never been able to provide a clear definition of that (for the purpose of naturalising talented persons with Irish associations). So that's your grandmother only. Apart from that, if that person is 2 or more generations before you, you must demonstrate that either you or your family history has tangible personal relations in Ireland in order to have 2 years waived. So as things stand now, the Minister believes you don't have a case strong enough to even waive just 2 years, leaving alone 4.
Yes the legislation leaves room for the Minister to waive more years, but again, that doesn't mean you are automatically qualified. Exemptions require reasons. The legislation explicitly says that it would be up to the Minister to decide - and the Minister decides that 3 years are needed for general public, and the most recent Court of Appeal case ruled that the Minister has the sole rights to apply exemptions in exceptional circumstances. So it's up to you to prove that your case is so much stronger that the Minister should consider waiving more years. And no, this part is not about your ancestry's 'Irishness', it's about your 'Irishness'. You can have an Irish mother but she may not have lived or worked in Ireland for a single day at all. You need to demonstrate that you have a special case that warrants the Minister to waive more years (e.g. if you have made or can make significant contribution to the Irish society - e.g. world renowned athletes, researchers etc).
The fact that you have now closer to 3 years does not help your application. The only date that matters is the date that you signed the application in the eyes of a solicitor. That was the only time that you were making a statutory declaration. You can say that you have lived 20 years here when you talk to your friend or on Facebook for example - those words - truths or lies - do not have any legal standing. Same when you go to the court and put your hand over Bible and make a declaration to the judge - they are stupid ideas, but they are the laws. I believe it is the same in the US. You can of course create a new statutory declaration when you have accumulated 3 years of residence but they will need to go through the same application process to make sure these declarations are genuine and these residences are reckonable.
Yes Judicial Review is the process of reviewing a public office's decision-making process, if you have reasons to believe that this process discriminated against you. You cannot JR it if the same process has been applied to general public, in line with their publicly announced criteria. If you believe you have a strong case that warrants waiving more years, JR is not the correct route, as you are talking about an exemption / exceptional case, and you will need to bring a legal case against the state.
If you are not willing to read my posts or read what’s available on INIS’s website, I don’t see any point discussing this with you any further.Shakey wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:09 amI was granted citizenship by association a month ago. My mother has never lived in Ireland. I am not a researcher, I am not an athlete. Let's not make wild assumptions about how the department interpret associations when I am living proof the department are granting citizenship by association for people with Irish FBR parents.
The residency rejection is certainly more reasonable, I agree on that point. In my case I had four years which obviously put me in a much stronger position.