Irish Associations - Denied

[handoubleu]

I applied for citizenship through Irish associations relatively prematurely. Normally, the general rule of thumb being you have minimum 3 years reckonable residence. I applied after 1. Therefore, I was not entirely surprised that it was denied.

However, what I am now uncertain on is two-fold:

1) in the recommendation to the minister they stipulated that my “associations” were not sufficiently strong. My associations being my mother through FRB, my aunt through FEB, my grandmother being the daughter of my great-grandmother who was born in the State. I am not certain how much stronger an association can get? I am aware assent has been criticised, but if my mother or father were citizens at the time I was born then I would not apply via naturalisation nor would I apply via naturalisation if my grandmother were born in Ireland (I would have applied through FRB). As such, it seems flawed to say the association is not strong. Is this something JR would shed light on?

2) The ministers direct note was that I was now in a position to acquire more residency to “apply the Standard Adult [route].” This is not clear whether the Minister meant waiting the typical 3 years that applicants applying through Irish associations or the full 5 an apply through pure residency. I am may just apply again after the 3 year mark and hope it’s accepted on association with the additional residency, but it seems controversial to require applicants to get to the 3 year mark and then (when I am just shy of 3 years), in essence, punish the applicant for building up residency by requiring them to wait until 5 years after all? Especially since I’m aware others have applied before the 5 year but after/on 3. . Would this be something that could be resolved via JR?

[handoubleu]

my aunt through FEB

Apologies, my aunt through same as my mum FRB not feb. I should also note all of them currently hold irish passports.

[Shakey]

I applied for citizenship through Irish associations relatively prematurely. Normally, the general rule of thumb being you have minimum 3 years reckonable residence. I applied after 1. Therefore, I was not entirely surprised that it was denied.

However, what I am now uncertain on is two-fold:

1) in the recommendation to the minister they stipulated that my “associations” were not sufficiently strong. My associations being my mother through FRB, my aunt through FEB, my grandmother being the daughter of my great-grandmother who was born in the State. I am not certain how much stronger an association can get? I am aware assent has been criticised, but if my mother or father were citizens at the time I was born then I would not apply via naturalisation nor would I apply via naturalisation if my grandmother were born in Ireland (I would have applied through FRB). As such, it seems flawed to say the association is not strong. Is this something JR would shed light on?

2) The ministers direct note was that I was now in a position to acquire more residency to “apply the Standard Adult [route].” This is not clear whether the Minister meant waiting the typical 3 years that applicants applying through Irish associations or the full 5 an apply through pure residency. I am may just apply again after the 3 year mark and hope it’s accepted on association with the additional residency, but it seems controversial to require applicants to get to the 3 year mark and then (when I am just shy of 3 years), in essence, punish the applicant for building up residency by requiring them to wait until 5 years after all? Especially since I’m aware others have applied before the 5 year but after/on 3. . Would this be something that could be resolved via JR?

This is interesting. I have just become a citizen after applying through associations. However I had four years residency when I applied.

Your Irish associations are certainly strong, added to the fact that there is zero legal standing for the three years rule I think the department could be wide open to a legal case in the situation.

Whilst it is true that the granting of citizenship is at the discretion of the minister I believed the department would just ice strong association applications when they were very early like yours for the exact reason they would be open to a legal cases. The fact that they have to give a reason for the rejection gives them very little room to maneuver when someone has an Irish parent. Citizenship is derived from the 1956 Citizenship Act not from what is written on the application form or text on the government website.

It wasn't long ago I believe when the government lost a legal case for making it mandatory for people to have a PSC card when applying for a passport or drivers license.

Certainly worth getting the opinion of Obie on this one I think.

[handoubleu]

I thought of you @shakey! Congratulations btw!

What is also interesting to me is:

1) Albeit, I applied after one year, but they held my application up to the 2.5 year mark which would have brought the application closer to the desired 3 year mark imo; then choose to deny it.

2) it seems to violate Borta as there was no clarification as to why my associations were not strong enough; simply the department did not consider them sufficiently strong. Followed by the minister’s note that I am now in a position to acquire more residency to apply the standard route (which again is vague since it does not clarify if by standard route they mean 3 years or only based on 5 years residency)

[littlerr]

All of your answers are answered on INIS's website.
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to- ... ociations/

The wording on waiving reckonable residence is:

An association going back two generations without any other link to the State is generally considered as not sufficient to warrant consideration or the waiving of the statutory residence conditions.

Your Irish association is based on your grandmother, who was not born in Ireland (I presume - based on your wording), so you going back 2 generations is not considered as sufficient to waive any residence conditions at all. You could only argue strong association if your grandmother or your mother is living in Ireland (or had lived in Ireland for quite a while).

In practice, the minister is often lenient and may choose to waive 2 years out of the 5 year residency requirement. You however have only 1 year residence, so it's not sufficient for you either way at all.

Had you had 3 years of residency, and you are able to prove that your mother/grandmother has some residency in Ireland or at least has some personal ties in Ireland, you might have a valid case.

The standard adult route means 5 year residency. The 3 year route is certain not the 'standard' one.

[Shakey]

All of your answers are answered on INIS's website.
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to- ... ociations/

The wording on waiving reckonable residence is:

An association going back two generations without any other link to the State is generally considered as not sufficient to warrant consideration or the waiving of the statutory residence conditions.

Your Irish association is based on your grandmother, who was not born in Ireland (I presume - based on your wording), so you going back 2 generations is not considered as sufficient to waive any residence conditions at all. You could only argue strong association if your grandmother or your mother is living in Ireland (or had lived in Ireland for quite a while).

In practice, the minister is often lenient and may choose to waive 2 years out of the 5 year residency requirement. You however have only 1 year residence, so it's not sufficient for you either way at all.

Had you had 3 years of residency, and you are able to prove that your mother/grandmother has some residency in Ireland or at least has some personal ties in Ireland, you might have a valid case.

The standard adult route means 5 year residency. The 3 year route is certain not the 'standard' one.

The Op's association status is entirely valid because my situation is exactly the same and I was just granted citizenship. You cannot get a closer association by descent because the next step is being able to apply to the FBR yourself.

Whether the government are deciding one year or three years is a moot point. It isn't statute. I suspect a government lawyer is going to really struggle to justify rejection on the grounds given. In a court of law they can hardly use "oh we wrote this on our website and our application form".

Either the government amends the law to leave the situation black or white or they will stay wide open for a legal case on these matters very similar to the magical six week rule that appeared out of nowhere in 2016.

[littlerr]

The Op's association status is entirely valid because my situation is exactly the same and I was just granted citizenship. You cannot get a closer association by descent because the next step is being able to apply to the FBR yourself.

I don't think that's right. The definition of Irish association has always been vague and is up to interpretation of the Minister who has the total discretion. If the current minister interprets that having an Irish great grandmother is not enough, I can't see how that violates any part in the legislation or constitution.

Whether the government are deciding one year or three years is a moot point. It isn't statute.

The legislation says the minister has total discretion. Unless that can be proved unconstitutional, you can hardly argue anything about it.

I suspect a government lawyer is going to really struggle to justify rejection on the grounds given. In a court of law they can hardly use "oh we wrote this on our website and our application form".

Why not? I mean I agree that the legislation is vague and I don't believe that the Minister should have total discretion, but again the current legislation says the Minister has total discretion, and this discretion is communicated through the official website, you cannot just say that that one clause is illegal.

Either the government amends the law to leave the situation black or white or they will stay wide open for a legal case on these matters very similar to the magical six week rule that appeared out of nowhere in 2016.

It's good that you brought up the six week rule and this 'black and white' thing. Throughout the world, there is not a single country's legislations that are 'black and white'. Wordings are always up to interpretation. Even when you fight all the way to the Supreme Court, rulings are sometimes not unanimous. Judges simply vote and the majority have the final say.

You must know the most recent case on that continuous residence. The High Court ruled that 'continuous residence' means you can't leave the state for one second, as they took it in the most literal definition of the word 'continuous', while the Court of Appeal overruled that, saying the Minister's approach to both the term 'continuous residence' and the six-weeks rule in general (with unspecified additional days allowed for exceptional cases), is, "reasonable", and "not rigid, inflexible or unlawful".

If we are to apply the same rule, then the approach towards Irish association applications, where the legislation has provided the Minister total discretion, and that the Minister's approach is "reasonable", is not unlawful.

Btw, I saw that the OP mentioned judicial review. A judicial review only applies when you have proof that you have been discriminated against by the Minister or by the staff during this process. For example, if someone's application took 2 years while the majority took 1 year, then that person has an argument for judicial review. In the OP's circumstance, the rules are clear and the processing time is in line with what they have listed on their website for the general public, I don't believe there is any room for judicial review. If the OP wants to start legal proceedings, he/she might as well go straight to sue the state.

[handoubleu]

All of your answers are answered on INIS's website.
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to- ... ociations/

The wording on waiving reckonable residence is:

An association going back two generations without any other link to the State is generally considered as not sufficient to warrant consideration or the waiving of the statutory residence conditions.

Your Irish association is based on your grandmother, who was not born in Ireland (I presume - based on your wording), so you going back 2 generations is not considered as sufficient to waive any residence conditions at all. You could only argue strong association if your grandmother or your mother is living in Ireland (or had lived in Ireland for quite a while).

So I suppose the one of the things I would like clarification is that they said the associations wasn’t sufficiently strong. However, in the recommendation to the Minister it states that the associations are not solely my great grandmother but all four I mentioned - mother (granted Irish citizenship through FBR), grandmother (holds her citizenship via a different route of being the daughter of the person born in Ireland) great grandmother (being the relative born in Ireland/decent of her) and aunt (weakest leg, but has irish citizenship sams as my mum). So they department gave explicit reference to all of them as my associations, not purely my great grandmother and decided the associations were not sufficiently strong.

Additionally, the legislation even leaves room for one to make the claim if the associations would purely be “entitled” to citizenship rather than having exercised the right as mine have. This is why it becomes unclear to me in that (does it violate the new ruling in Borta as well bc there was no explanation as to how the associations weren’t sufficiently strong?) they considered my mum an association but not strong enough association to me?

Additionally, although at the time of application I only had the 1 year I now would have closer to three which they also explicitly acknowledged in the recommendation to the minister. So to address the idea that one would all with “no other link” or negligible time/connection would seem to be moot since I am then asking for them to waive the amount of year more in line with the practice they traditionally exercise.

In terms of JR, I may have a misunderstanding, but essentially my understanding is that you can JR the department’s decision making process (or decisions?) and by asking for a Certiorari - quash a decision, Mandamus - compel the performance of a duty etc. But I am not certain if any of these questions that I seek clarification on fall within? For instance, if I were to seek clarification on sufficiently strong in line with Borta, would this be the route?

[littlerr]

One thing you might be able to challenge them in the court is the definition of 'association'. The current interpretation seems to suggest that Irish association means the person you are associated with were naturally born Irish. They've never been able to provide a clear definition of that (for the purpose of naturalising talented persons with Irish associations). So that's your grandmother only. Apart from that, if that person is 2 or more generations before you, you must demonstrate that either you or your family history has tangible personal relations in Ireland in order to have 2 years waived. So as things stand now, the Minister believes you don't have a case strong enough to even waive just 2 years, leaving alone 4.

Yes the legislation leaves room for the Minister to waive more years, but again, that doesn't mean you are automatically qualified. Exemptions require reasons. The legislation explicitly says that it would be up to the Minister to decide - and the Minister decides that 3 years are needed for general public, and the most recent Court of Appeal case ruled that the Minister has the sole rights to apply exemptions in exceptional circumstances. So it's up to you to prove that your case is so much stronger that the Minister should consider waiving more years. And no, this part is not about your ancestry's 'Irishness', it's about your 'Irishness'. You can have an Irish mother but she may not have lived or worked in Ireland for a single day at all. You need to demonstrate that you have a special case that warrants the Minister to waive more years (e.g. if you have made or can make significant contribution to the Irish society - e.g. world renowned athletes, researchers etc).

The fact that you have now closer to 3 years does not help your application. The only date that matters is the date that you signed the application in the eyes of a solicitor. That was the only time that you were making a statutory declaration. You can say that you have lived 20 years here when you talk to your friend or on Facebook for example - those words - truths or lies - do not have any legal standing. Same when you go to the court and put your hand over Bible and make a declaration to the judge - they are stupid ideas, but they are the laws. I believe it is the same in the US. You can of course create a new statutory declaration when you have accumulated 3 years of residence but they will need to go through the same application process to make sure these declarations are genuine and these residences are reckonable.

Yes Judicial Review is the process of reviewing a public office's decision-making process, if you have reasons to believe that this process discriminated against you. You cannot JR it if the same process has been applied to general public, in line with their publicly announced criteria. If you believe you have a strong case that warrants waiving more years, JR is not the correct route, as you are talking about an exemption / exceptional case, and you will need to bring a legal case against the state.

[Shakey]

One thing you might be able to challenge them in the court is the definition of 'association'. The current interpretation seems to suggest that Irish association means the person you are associated with were naturally born Irish. They've never been able to provide a clear definition of that (for the purpose of naturalising talented persons with Irish associations). So that's your grandmother only. Apart from that, if that person is 2 or more generations before you, you must demonstrate that either you or your family history has tangible personal relations in Ireland in order to have 2 years waived. So as things stand now, the Minister believes you don't have a case strong enough to even waive just 2 years, leaving alone 4.

Yes the legislation leaves room for the Minister to waive more years, but again, that doesn't mean you are automatically qualified. Exemptions require reasons. The legislation explicitly says that it would be up to the Minister to decide - and the Minister decides that 3 years are needed for general public, and the most recent Court of Appeal case ruled that the Minister has the sole rights to apply exemptions in exceptional circumstances. So it's up to you to prove that your case is so much stronger that the Minister should consider waiving more years. And no, this part is not about your ancestry's 'Irishness', it's about your 'Irishness'. You can have an Irish mother but she may not have lived or worked in Ireland for a single day at all. You need to demonstrate that you have a special case that warrants the Minister to waive more years (e.g. if you have made or can make significant contribution to the Irish society - e.g. world renowned athletes, researchers etc).

The fact that you have now closer to 3 years does not help your application. The only date that matters is the date that you signed the application in the eyes of a solicitor. That was the only time that you were making a statutory declaration. You can say that you have lived 20 years here when you talk to your friend or on Facebook for example - those words - truths or lies - do not have any legal standing. Same when you go to the court and put your hand over Bible and make a declaration to the judge - they are stupid ideas, but they are the laws. I believe it is the same in the US. You can of course create a new statutory declaration when you have accumulated 3 years of residence but they will need to go through the same application process to make sure these declarations are genuine and these residences are reckonable.

Yes Judicial Review is the process of reviewing a public office's decision-making process, if you have reasons to believe that this process discriminated against you. You cannot JR it if the same process has been applied to general public, in line with their publicly announced criteria. If you believe you have a strong case that warrants waiving more years, JR is not the correct route, as you are talking about an exemption / exceptional case, and you will need to bring a legal case against the state.

I was granted citizenship by association a month ago. My mother has never lived in Ireland. I am not a researcher, I am not an athlete. Let's not make wild assumptions about how the department interpret associations when I am living proof the department are granting citizenship by association for people with Irish FBR parents.

The residency rejection is certainly more reasonable, I agree on that point. In my case I had four years which obviously put me in a much stronger position.

[littlerr]

I was granted citizenship by association a month ago. My mother has never lived in Ireland. I am not a researcher, I am not an athlete. Let's not make wild assumptions about how the department interpret associations when I am living proof the department are granting citizenship by association for people with Irish FBR parents.

The residency rejection is certainly more reasonable, I agree on that point. In my case I had four years which obviously put me in a much stronger position.

If you are not willing to read my posts or read what’s available on INIS’s website, I don’t see any point discussing this with you any further.

I have made it very clear that the likes of athletes or researchers may allow the minister to waive more residence requirements than the typical 2 years.

You have 4 years of residence as required on the website when you applied for naturalisation, so of course your case meets the similar lenient requirements for the past few years. Nobody said you have to be an athlete or researcher if you have 3 years of residence.

The OP doesn’t have 3 years. That’s why his application was refused. I was saying that is if he wants to ask the minister to waive more than 2 years of residence, he needs to prove that he qualifies for this exceptional case, by perhaps demonstrating that he has or will have contributed a lot to the Irish society. If he is able to do that, as allowed by the Court of Appeal, the minister may be able to waive more residence requirement.