Scorecard is a positive development

[ScottishDiem]

I am interested in why people are against the scorecard - most, if not all, of the documents were going to form the evidence supporting my application. The scorecard just provided clarity.

What were applicants going to submit instead of the documents requested? The scorecard seems to use the easiest and most commonly available evidence and if people dont have these already, surely the application was going to be very hard to get approval? If people cant prove they live in Ireland, would INIS have approved an application?

I am also concerned at the men who seem to ensure that their wives are not in anyway independent or able to prove their existence other than a mere extension of the husband. As many bills etc. as possible that my partner and I have are in both names or where that wasnt possible, we made sure to have a range in each name.

Applying for citizenship has been a 5 year project and, yes, some items we gathered will not be needed now but we have always considered that Ireland asks applicants to prove that they live in the country, that their lives are centred in the country, and that they have formed part of society since arriving. We gathered as much info as possible to back this up. The application form we looked at 5 years ago has changed and we changed along the way to make sure our application would be as strong as possible.

The scorecard makes things much clearer.

[meself2]

I'd agree, it is indeed a good sign. Maybe they even used it internally before and now, since they released to the public, people are able to understand what and how many of each documents they need to submit to satisfy the officer.
However, it is not very clear on applications which deviate from the standard adult route, in my opinion.
Let's take a child's route, who is just going to school and, basically, nothing else. As letter from school gives only 100 points, where else would you get more? You need to give your kid a credit card to create bank statements? Have to go to a doctor every year?
Same goes for young adult. There is a "young adult" category which is supposed to help with proofs of residence, but since school letter only gives 100 points in minor application, young adults are losing a lot by not being able to use these, and so on.
The idea is good, it just needs to be way more clearer/detailed, especially in edge cases. Not every application is straightforward.

[mentalmind]

I don't believe it's a positive development, here is why: there are set of papers that you decide to collect as common sense, bills, your work documents, your payslips and etc. And this is applicable for a person that really pays much attention to paperwork. I can clearly say, I have tons of papers, I practically saved every single paper that has my name and address on it, that I got in my hands physically.

5 years later, I have been told "providing 6 months of bank statement is a really valuable thing". Good luck finding your bank statements from 5 years ago, that has 6 months record in it for every single year. Yes maybe I can visit bank branch and try to print them out or maybe they will say they don't keep the bank statements for that long. Like I said, I have tons of documents, but I am sure there might be some years that I don't have 6 months of bank statements, probably some part of it is missing. Every quarter I get bank statements by post, and each time it's more than 10 pages long. So it means 40 pages per year and more than 200 pages for 5 years total. Well good luck sorting all that.

But I have some bills that shows my name and address, how about that? Sorry sir, those papers are useless now, only 10 points for those. And you will be saying "but I have them online right?" well good luck as most of providers remove them from online after 2 years. If you change your provider regularly, then good luck tracking all the bills.

Or good luck asking your GP (or multiple GPs) for the statement for past 5 years.

There was list of documents (before the scorecard era) that you knew you could use as proof. And suddenly you have been told that some of those papers are worthless now. And now you have to provide more valuable proof from 5 years ago. If they would have said "We accept documents as usual till 2022, and after 2022 we will apply this scoreboard" Then people would be more careful about what to collect starting from 2022 and wouldn't have to worry about their previously collected documents. It's almost like applying brand new law for past. You smoked some stuff 5 years ago, and it was okay back then but today we decided it's a crime and now you will be charged for it. And you would say "but I didn't know it would be considered crime 5 years later", right?

Last point, I will give an example for myself, I reside and live in Ireland for more than 5 years, being employed every single day. I have bills for my name for this 5 years, I have tenancy agreement for my name for 4.5 years of this duration. I didn't use any social welfare till few months ago, which is for 1 week only and it was sick payment. And I can't give you guarantee that I can provide 6 months straight bank statements for each year, probably some pages of it got lost somewhere or I forgot to print out etc. With this scoreboard situation, I can barely reach 150 points. But technically, I have tons of things to show as proof "my GP visits, my electric and internet bills" but they are all worthless. Let me make list of the documents I can use as proof:

P60 - 70 points, Rent agreement - 50 points (I am residing in same house for past 4 years so I really hope this will be valid for each year), electric supplier - 10 points, medical insurance - 10 points. And I have 140 points.

Here is the stuff I can't use:
Department of social welfare statement, for past 5 years I only got social welfare one time, so there is nothing in my statement. Current bank statements, I am quiet certain I can barely catch 6 consecutive months, if you lose 1 page of your statement, that is useless. No mortgage, no credit, no kids. I have doctors visit but my address on invoice was old (I was lazy to update it), so it's probably useless.

In my 5.5 years in Ireland, I have been away maybe for 3 months in total (3 weeks each year for christmas back home), working full time, spending money every day, but look at the scoreboard, I can barely reach 140 points. So how come you would say "positive" for this?

[meself2]

There was list of documents (before the scorecard era) that you knew you could use as proof. And suddenly you have been told that some of those papers are worthless now. And now you have to provide more valuable proof from 5 years ago. If they would have said "We accept documents as usual till 2022, and after 2022 we will apply this scoreboard" Then people would be more careful about what to collect starting from 2022 and wouldn't have to worry about their previously collected documents. It's almost like applying brand new law for past. You smoked some stuff 5 years ago, and it was okay back then but today we decided it's a crime and now you will be charged for it. And you would say "but I didn't know it would be considered crime 5 years later", right?

Really good point. I would expect INIS to announce this scoreboard approach while old system is still in place or, at least, putting it into operation step by step to avoid this problematic transitional period. Even now there are things that were acceptable by the old system but are not acceptable now, such as "household bills (gas, electricity, phone or cable/satellite TV)", and since you cannot go five years later to get what you need for the scoreboard, some might have to live here for another few years and wait for the decision.

So how come you would say "positive" for this?

It, at least, gives us an insight on what counts as a proof of residence internally, which is good: INIS cannot just say "this is not a proof of residence" when it's in the table clearly and so on. But the end result has way too many things missing that were acceptable before (and should still be acceptable now). Even water bill is not mentioned.

[Nala2021]

5 years later, I have been told "providing 6 months of bank statement is a really valuable thing". Good luck finding your bank statements from 5 years ago, that has 6 months record in it for every single year. Yes maybe I can visit bank branch and try to print them out or maybe they will say they don't keep the bank statements for that long. Like I said, I have tons of documents, but I am sure there might be some years that I don't have 6 months of bank statements, probably some part of it is missing. Every quarter I get bank statements by post, and each time it's more than 10 pages long. So it means 40 pages per year and more than 200 pages for 5 years total. Well good luck sorting all that.

Mentalmind have you already applied for citizenship or not?

Banks keep data (and I mean account data and transactions) for around 7 years, I think even after the closure of an account. I don't think that you can print anything off in branches anymore. Do you not have online banking? There one can access all the statements you have had, and print them off at home. They look like a PDF document - but the issue is that the date on the left does not always correlate with the POS date next to it. So if you are looking to highlight the POS (in the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland for other applicants), you need to check the actual POS date.

Fortunately or not fortunately, proving your economic presence in the state as mentioned above, is important to them.

[mentalmind]

It, at least, gives us an insight on what counts as a proof of residence internally, which is good: INIS cannot just say "this is not a proof of residence" when it's in the table clearly and so on. But the end result has way too many things missing that were acceptable before (and should still be acceptable now). Even water bill is not mentioned.

Well what is counted as proof was super clear, as in for last 2 years, here is the long gone pdf that shows trust value of each document.

Mentalmind have you already applied for citizenship or not?

Banks keep data (and I mean account data and transactions) for around 7 years, I think even after the closure of an account. I don't think that you can print anything off in branches anymore. Do you not have online banking? There one can access all the statements you have had, and print them off at home. They look like a PDF document - but the issue is that the date on the left does not always correlate with the POS date next to it. So if you are looking to highlight the POS (in the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland for other applicants), you need to check the actual POS date.

Fortunately or not fortunately, proving your economic presence in the state as mentioned above, is important to them.

I applied in 2021, but I didn't heard back from acknowledgement letter, and officially your application is not accepted till you get that acknowledgement letter. They can still refuse your application bcs of issue with continous residence or wrong application form used etc. So even thou I applied in Nov 2021, I don't feel/count myself as applied yet.

Well I used to be KBC customer, which is leaving the country soon, and they could barely send the regular bank statements so some banks are not good as others. And at this point, I am just waiting hopelessly and this 2022 rule change makes me nervous.

[shpirtshqipe]

Only applications received from January 2022 onwards will be processed based on the new scorecard system so there’s no need to be anxious.

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/scoreca ... uary-2022/

[Nala2021]

Well I think that the issue here is that applicants are not sure whether their application will be judged by the 2021 and before criteria, or the 2022 criteria with the scorecard. Nowhere in the announcement is it actually written that ''Only applications received from January 2022 onwards will be processed based on the new scorecard system'', and I think this is what actually makes people nervous.

I also applied Nov 2021, and I do not have an acknowledgement letter yet (I do have my passport back though).

Regarding the bank situation though, it is important to remember that INIS had the right, or prerogative at least, to ask for any bank statements they wanted. And, as we can see from the scorecard, clearly, if the statements didn't have the minimum 3 POS per month, for 6 consecutive months, they would either ask for more, or contact the applicant, or disregard the statements completely.

Mentalmind it is important to note that KBC will not move to Bank of Ireland until the end of 2022, and since the bank statements were, and will always be important, you really need to get hold of as many as you can and highlight what is needed. I did ask if you had an online banking account - even if you don't, KBC will have records. The more you try to work to get evidence, the more your anxiety will lessen over the matter.

[luxurylemon]

The problem I have with the scorecard approach vs that pyramid pdf is this.
Previously it said it would take spouse revenue documentation and employment letters for spouse, even if they are weaker. Now they are just gone? We sent loads of those with my husbands application (Sept 2021 no letter yet).
Wage slips were previously accepted, but now no longer appear on the scorecard. We had printed 3 years worth of them for the application. Why did I even bother.
Bank Statements were previously mid tier, now they are top tier, mortgage was previously top tier now its lesser. Additionally you only require 6 months rent payments, but 12 months mortgage payments??? We only owned our house for 20 months when we applied so we only had payments going back that far, but I guess its only good for 12 months proof now meanwhile someone renting needs less?
Insurance and bills are also only good for 10 points. I would have sent more than 3 proofs per year claimed, but they now don't add up to 150 points for some years, even if I might have sent 4 or 5 different things.
Also our gas and electric is on one bill dual fuel for better deal. Is that 10 points or 20? If its only 10 do I need to now go split my bills with different suppliers and increase the cost for the sake of having two separate proofs?

[shpirtshqipe]

Well I think that the issue here is that applicants are not sure whether their application will be judged by the 2021 and before criteria, or the 2022 criteria with the scorecard. Nowhere in the announcement is it actually written that ''Only applications received from January 2022 onwards will be processed based on the new scorecard system'', and I think this is what actually makes people nervous.

This has been already announced by the Minister of Justice. Read below article in full

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/555 ... n-changes/

[Nala2021]

Well I think that the issue here is that applicants are not sure whether their application will be judged by the 2021 and before criteria, or the 2022 criteria with the scorecard. Nowhere in the announcement is it actually written that ''Only applications received from January 2022 onwards will be processed based on the new scorecard system'', and I think this is what actually makes people nervous.

This has been already announced by the Minister of Justice. Read below article in full

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/555 ... n-changes/

With all due respect, where on earth does it say, or infer, in the article you gave me to read above, that ''Only applications received from January 2022 onwards will be processed based on the new scorecard system''?

Would you mind quoting the particular part from the announcement? I only see these announcements as ambiguous and quite frankly question provoking.

If they were so clear, then this forum would not have been inundated with applicants trying to salvage information and directions regarding their application, be it in 2021, or 2022.

[shpirtshqipe]

Quote from the link I sent you

“From January, my department will be moving to a scorecard approach, which will bring added clarity regarding what information applicants will be required to provide to establish their identity and residency. In particular, for doctors who are employed in the HSE or in Voluntary Hospitals, the provision of a “Medical Practitioner Employment History Summary” will be accepted as proof of residence. I know that this will be very much welcomed by doctors who face very unique challenges arising from moving hospitals as part of their training."

In my experience any new changes to processes in immigration such as the scorecard system usually take effect from the date they’ve been made formal into legislation.

[Nala2021]

For the sake of those following the thread, the particular quote does not mention if the new scorecard approach that will be used will apply to just new applications (from 1t January 2022 onwards), or all applications that are on hand in the department. It just says that the approach will be different.

The announcement does not mention that the scorecard approach will be passed into legislation. The legislation for what it necessary for naturalisation and citizenship is in the constitution already. Passing legislation is a long process, and I highly doubt that it is used for such reasons. I would assume that any ministerial department has the prerogative(s) to amend processes and directives as needed for maximum impact and performance.

[mentalmind]

Just asked this to my solicitor and got an answer "this should not affect your application, we will clarify this." So it seems at this stage there is nothing certain and only time will tell.

[Russ83]

The issue for me, and I guess plenty of other people, is the new scorecard suddenly invalidates lots of the evidence that we have spent years collecting.

I've got 3 years' worth of electricity, internet, and waste bills. Suddenly the latter two don't count.

My folks were specifically asked for dentist records when naturalizing. No mention of dentists under the new scorecard. Problematic for me since in 2020 I went to the dentist twice but didn't visit a doctor at all.

Insistence on tenancy agreements being registered with RTB leaves tenants on the hook for landlord's inaction, during a rental crisis and pandemic where you have to take whatever you're offered.

Letters from government agencies apparently no longer count for anything. My wife joined me in 2019 but didn't work that year and set up her bank account in the latter half of the year. I had to collect an inch thickness of paperwork proving our residence, and have us both show up in person to get her IRP. She also got a PRSI number, PSC card, and learner permit that year. She has 10 points for the year (electricity bill).

It's a s***show.

[luxurylemon]

The issue for me, and I guess plenty of other people, is the new scorecard suddenly invalidates lots of the evidence that we have spent years collecting.

I've got 3 years' worth of electricity, internet, and waste bills. Suddenly the latter two don't count.

Letters from government agencies apparently no longer count for anything. She also got a PRSI number, PSC card, and learner permit that year. She has 10 points for the year (electricity bill).

It's a s***show.

Same here. I completely forgot about our Virgin Media Bills in my above post too. I sent all copies I had of our bill with our application and we have landline phone, fibre internet and TV with them. It's not like a mobile phone bill its fixed with the property, but suddenly those kinds of bills have disappeared. Also had our bin bills I'd sent too.
I had also sent letters from RSA, NDLS etc. when my husband did his driving test and got his licence. I had thought they would be accepted as one is a government agency and for the other obviously he had to be here to get his licence. I thought any letters from government agencies or anything that could be verified really would be accepted but nothing on the list.

[shpirtshqipe]

For the sake of those following the thread, the particular quote does not mention if the new scorecard approach that will be used will apply to just new applications (from 1t January 2022 onwards), or all applications that are on hand in the department. It just says that the approach will be different.

The announcement does not mention that the scorecard approach will be passed into legislation. The legislation for what it necessary for naturalisation and citizenship is in the constitution already. Passing legislation is a long process, and I highly doubt that it is used for such reasons. I would assume that any ministerial department has the prerogative(s) to amend processes and directives as needed for maximum impact and performance.

Dude. Don’t put fear into people when the communication from the department is crystal clear. Unless there are specific instructions for applications before January 2022 then it is understood all new applications are processed with the new system and old applications with the previous system. This is common knowledge.

In my experience I have gone through the UK and Irish immigration system and whatever processes they’ve changed once an application is lodged that said application is processed in accordance with the rules at that time in the majority of cases.

[OneWorld2122]

I’m not sure why there is so much miscommunication or over speculation, instructions from the department are :

1) new scorecard applies for new application received 2022 onwards.
2) for new applications : even if applicants don’t meet 150 points , application won’t be rejected and will require more effort from ISD (that could cause delay).
3) new scorecard won’t apply for existing applications, department has applications from 2018, 19, 20 and 21 for existing application department may ask extra documents but still won’t need to proof 150 points.

I’m not defending new scorecard system but mis conception on existing applications

[mmsa]

Put simply.. The only way it is a "positive" move is if it speeds up the process

[mentalmind]

Well it is speeding up the process, bcs of unclarity people can't really apply for citizenship not to risk refusals, so it's easing the weight on immigration department.

[Shakey]

Put simply.. The only way it is a "positive" move is if it speeds up the process

For someone arriving in Ireland now I think its quite helpful. I can imagine the number of fishing licenses will increase due to people looling for an eqsy extra 10 points

[Nala2021]

Well it is speeding up the process, bcs of unclarity people can't really apply for citizenship not to risk refusals, so it's easing the weight on immigration department.

Exactly. And some proof, well the only proof we have so far, is that it's the 18th of January, and still there is only 1 person who has written on the timeline for 2022. And I think that is for a child of a naturalised parent.

[mmsa]

Not really a valid point. There will be the same number of applications and the same amount of review of documents with some not being able to provide adequate documents being reviewed manually. The proof is in the coming 12 months if it is to speed up the process or to make it more meticulous and laborsome.

it will be worth it if the processing time is improved on significantly, otherwise its just a bureaucratic move

[Nala2021]

Please, shpirtshqipe, see the below text for your perusal, copied and pasted from the 'New Scorecard approach is foolish' thread, pg 2, where you go on to make a point to me on how everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I assume that it is common knowledge that 'everyone' would include every person using this forum, and thus, includes me.

With the warmest regards, dude.

''Nala2021 everyone is entitled to an opinion whether they are pro or against the current citizenship system.
Bringing different points of view is vital so that other people whom are about to embark on the journey of citizenship or thinking of migrating to Ireland have an informed choice''.

[OneWorld2122]

If you look at the first post made in the timeline of 2021, 2020, 2019 was in late or end of January ( for 2019 first applications post in feb ), so by that logic, it’s still very early first application already submitted in 2022 after new point system.

Well it is speeding up the process, bcs of unclarity people can't really apply for citizenship not to risk refusals, so it's easing the weight on immigration department.

Exactly. And some proof, well the only proof we have so far, is that it's the 18th of January, and still there is only 1 person who has written on the timeline for 2022. And I think that is for a child of a naturalised parent.