Born abroad and adopted under Irish law.

[corky100]

Hi,

Based on the posts by Valiant24 here, and on the article below, I applied for a passport based on "Born abroad and adopted under Irish law."

ireland/foreign-birth-registration-t277 ... l#p1871593

Solicitor weblink removed by moderator

I got knocked back for citizenship documents (I expected that), but web-chat are insistent I go through FBR!?!?!? I'm sure the checker knows about it, but web chat are having none of it.

Any Ideas?

"As per earlier in the thread, I did apply for FBR believing this to be the case, but my FBR was rejected (after a 1y 4m wait!) because as an adoptee I did not qualify for FBR in the same way that a natural-born child would have done."

"In any case, I did have now received my passport, without the need for FBR, by submitting proof of my adoptive Irish-born grandmother's birth; proof of my UK-born adoptive mother's birth to her; and my adoption order. "

[littlerr]

Were you or your adopted parent(s) born abroad? And in which year were you adopted?

[corky100]

Hi,

I and my adoptive father was born in the UK - His father was born in Dublin. So he was an Irish citizen as far as I'm aware at the time of my adoption. I was adopted in 1980.

Web-chat (Alana!?) is having none of it. Insists I go through FBR when everything I've read says otherwise. I was looking at FBR when I found this out.

[corky100]

Just for clarity, my adoptive grandfather was born in Dublin. My adoptive father and myself UK.

[littlerr]

Webchat should be correct. Automatic inheritance of citizenship can only be passed down for 1 generation if they were not born on the island of Ireland.

If your father has a biological child that was born in the UK, that child would not be entitled to citizenship automatically and would have to go through FBR process. I can't see why it would be different and more favourable for adopted child.

[littlerr]

Actually let me retract my last comment. Just read the Citizenship Act again with regards to the Adoption section, you should be automatically Irish if the adoption is recognised under the Irish law.

[corky100]

I did a lot of research from authorative resources (e.g. DFA website). I knew my adoption was only going to throw a spanner. It seems a RICA used to be needed for the purposes you mentioned (recognition), but from the DFA itself:-

"The adoption certificate by the adoption authority where adoption was effected - if adopted before 1 November 2010, or the Intercountry Adoption certificate issued by Adoption Authority of Ireland if adopted
on or after 1 November 2010"

But that's not the issue.

Web Chat are basically saying that as I don't have my adoptive fathers passport from 40 years ago, then my only option is FBR. Which makes no sense. I've provided birth certificates to prove that. They may want more to back it up, fair enough. But I don't have a TARDIS to go back to 1978 and ask my dad to get a passport.

[corky100]

In addition, my adoptive father is not considered an Irish citizen as he neven help an Irish passport, according to webchat This makes no sense. A Passport never grants citizenship - Birth / Naturalisation / FBR does.

[corky100]

I type too fast :-

In addition, my adoptive father is not considered an Irish citizen as he never held an Irish passport, according to webchat. This makes no sense. A Passport never grants citizenship - Birth / Naturalisation / FBR does.

2022-02-03 14:50:47 | Agent: Your father is not considered an Irish citizen in this case as he never held an Irish passport. To go through a grandparent it is done under foreign birth registration.

[Br28016-1]

The law and the requirements list for applying for a passport are different. Law is that adopting parent has to be Irish citizen. Passport application specifically asks for details of the passport that was issued before the overseas adoption was done and registered. Situation is wrong in my opinion but they seem to stick to the passport check list. Should be updated to reflect the legal requirement not their interpretation of it which is that couldn't be done without a passport so want the passport.

[corky100]

I think I've figured out the source of the confusion. The section regarding "Adopted and adopted by an Irish citizen under Irish law" has disappeared from the DFA website, and I beleive this is why web chat took the position they did. Has something changed recently?

At the time of application:-

https://web.archive.org/web/20211127214 ... erIrishLaw

Abroad and adopted by an Irish citizen under Irish Law
Submit:
• The adoption certificate by the adoption authority where adoption was effected - if adopted before 1 November 2010, or the Intercountry Adoption certificate issued by Adoption Authority of Ireland if adopted on or after 1 November 2010.
• Civil marriage certificate if applying in the married name.
• Proof of Irish citizenship of adoptive parent at time of adoption, for example, Irish passport.
• Proof of address
• Copy of your Public Services Card if resident in Ireland
• If resident outside of Ireland submit:
o Original passport from another country, national ID card, social security card or a certified copy of your driver's license (certified by a solicitor or notary public)
o Proof of name

[corky100]

Well, I'm quite snookered. Spoke to the passport office and they are adamant that as my adoptive father never applied for a passport before my birth, he is not considered a citizen under this category and that I should go through FBR.

I've just checked the FBR requirements, and there's no catergory for someone adopted, only for someone born to someone adopted.

[mrbojangles]

This is an interesting thread (to me anyway!).

I'm in much the same position as you are. I had started down the FBR route, but then been pointed (by one of the very helpful FBR staff) to a direct application for a passport under s.11 INCA as someone adopted by an Irish citizen by descent. I've actually got as far as paying the passport fee and uploading the photo. I was about to send off the documents when I read this thread.

To be honest I can't see how their interpretation of the Act can be right. For an adopted child to be a citizen s.11 requires that

"the adopter or, where the adoption is by a married couple, either spouse is an Irish citizen"

Your father, as you say, was an Irish citizen as soon as he was born because of s.7:

A person is an Irish citizen from birth if at the time of his or her birth either parent was an Irish citizen or would if alive have been an Irish citizen.

His citizenship under that section is not conditional upon him having a passport. His birth certificate and that of his Irish-born parent are enough to prove that he is (and has always been) an Irish citizen under s.7.

I must admit I found s.11 odd, in that it seems to give greater rights to the adopted children of people in your father's position than it does to any biological children he may have had. Maybe they're rethinking it because of that. But I don't see how the DFA can unilaterally take away your citizenship by adding in non-legal obstacles that just about no one will be able to comply with. If there's a problem then surely the correct solution is for the legislation to be amended?

[corky100]

Hi,

Yes it's very frustrating - I'm not seeking any loopholes etc, I just want to follow the process (whatever it might be). There's no category for adopted people on the FBR, but there is for people born to someone Adopted.

I've been advised (not by the DFA) to get a RICA even though it's not a requirement pre-2010. I have since spoken with the passport office, he did say "it's changed since I was here" and was very clear that if the parent had not sought Irish citizenship (Passport) or was born on island of Ireland, then he was not considered an Irish citizen for this purpose. They haven't mentioned RICA or anything, it is just the 40 Year old passport. The section has been removed for Adults on the documentation requirements. It is still there for children.

The passports office stance makes no sense to me, I pointed out that he could apply for a passport now as he *is* an Irish citizen. But no cigar.

It does appear to give greater rights to adopted children, and that suprised me too. I didn't write the law. But it also gives equal rights to children adopted instead of born to a parent born on the isle of ireland. Well, that's my uneducated take on it anyway

[corky100]

With the benefit of hindsight, it does say this on the application cover note. And it appears they are sticking to that.

"Photocopy of parent’s Irish passport – ***must*** be issued before the date of adoption"

[corky100]

Also, I provided my Adoption Certificate, Fathers UK Birth Certificate, Grandfathers Irish birth certificate. I expected they might want more documents (e.g. Death certificate). But no, this is the response:-

"Unfortunately, you have not provided valid proof of citizenship. Please consult the following website for further information about same.
https://www.dfa.ie/citizenship/"

[mrbojangles]

It definitely makes no sense.

Also, I provided my Adoption Certificate, Fathers UK Birth Certificate, Grandfathers Irish birth certificate. I expected they might want more documents (e.g. Death certificate). But no, this is the response:-

"Unfortunately, you have not provided valid proof of citizenship. Please consult the following website for further information about same.
https://www.dfa.ie/citizenship/"

When you click on that link, right at the top it says:

Am I an Irish citizen?
If you or your parent were born on the island of Ireland before 2005, you are an Irish citizen.

In other words even by their own advice your father very clearly was an Irish citizen!

He was very clear that if the parent had not sought Irish citizenship (Passport) or was born on island of Ireland, then he was not considered an Irish citizen for this purpose

I can't see how there is any notion of "citizenship for this purpose" - either he is or he isn't. The birth certificate absolutely is valid proof that he was born in Ireland - otherwise what is the point of a birth certificate? And by being born in Ireland he's a citizen.

This seems to me so clearly to be wrong that I wonder if it's worth looking at the appeal system?

[mrbojangles]

Sorry, the last paragraph of my post is wrong - what I meant was that the your father's birth certificate clearly connects him back to his own father who was born in Ireland, which makes your father Irish by descent under s.7, without the need to apply.

Section 7: A person is an Irish citizen from birth if at the time of his or her birth either parent was an Irish citizen or would if alive have been an Irish citizen.

Anyway, we're slightly going round in circles here, and we both agree it doesn't make sense! I can't think of a solution other than an appeal. I don't know how that works.

[corky100]

Agreed. It might be an idea to check with FBR / Passport before you submit documents. I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, but at face value, if the FBR send people down this route, people will then be told go back to FBR.....not sure what happens then??

I fear my only option will be to seek legal advice etc, but with the backlog and people waiting etc, doesn't seem fair to tie up their time.

[mrbojangles]

After a bit more clicking around, the website seems to be changing day-by-day at the moment, and although I hesitate to say it, as far as I can see they seem to have got the law wrong! This is from https://www.dfa.ie/citizenship/born-abr ... ign-birth/



In case the image doesn't work it says (my underlining):

Born outside Ireland?

You are automatically an Irish citizen if one of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth and was born on the island of Ireland. You don’t need to apply to become an Irish citizen in this case.

You can become an Irish citizen if:

1. One of your grandparents was born on the island of Ireland, or;
2. One of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, even though they were not
born on the island of Ireland.

In these cases, you can become an Irish citizen through Foreign Birth Registration.

Once a person is entered onto the Foreign Births Register they are an Irish citizen and entitled to apply for an Irish passport.

They send adopted people down the second (FBR) route. But I don't think their distinction between automatic citizenship and the need to apply is correct so far as adopted children are concerned under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act. Adopted children who fall within s.11 are automatically Irish citizens. They don't need to apply or be registered.

I've just been looking at the appeal mechanism which is here. I reckon this issue falls within this bit:

Decisions on refusals of applications on citizenship grounds are outside the remit of the Appeals Officer and should be directed to the Department of Justice and Equality, which has responsibility for citizenship matters.

The department of Justice is here but I can't see any easy way to raise it with them.

As for my own application I don't know which was to go now, but as you rightly say neither seem open to s.11 cases despite what the Act says.

[mrbojangles]

Hello corky100, just wondering whether you decided on the best direction to go with this?

[corky100]

Well, I really wish I could PM you, as this is a two person thread. My current understanding is that there is the FBR for born people, and RICA for adopted (Foreign Adoption Register)

It seems adoptions are treated differently based on when / where / how, so treat the following as make believe - I think we were both wrong about adopted people seeming to have an advantage, even if adopted by an Irish born couple, you still need to apply for RICA. You dont skip 'FBR', you just go through a different process and register. It seems simpler and cheaper, but the gotchas are so much more severe. For example, no notarised / certified anything. You need your original adoption order, and if you don't have that, tough. Not born in one of the 10 countries they list? Tough.

You've been invited by FBR to apply, so if I were you, I would.

All I can say at the moment is that I now have a RICA entry and the certificate is on the way, and that I don't see any disadvantage in getting one.......................I would recommend phoning them up, as they have questions - answering those might help things, I'm not posting them on a public forum. For myself it was quick and easy, but I can easily see that not being the case for others.

I'm currently hoping to God that I receive my original order back, as I'm not getting another one...

[mrbojangles]

Hi Corky100,

I can't private message you either. I've just checked my settings:
Under "User Control Panel", "Board preferences" there's an option that says "Allow users to send you private messages". I've got that set to "yes". I don't know what else to do! You're welcome to email me at xxxxxx That's not my main email, but I'll pick up your message and give you my proper address.

Anyway, thanks very much for your reply. That's actually a bit more encouraging. I do already have a RICA certificate, which I got a couple of years ago before everything shut down for covid. By pure luck I must have had the right bits and bobs, because it was easy for me. My adoption was a LONG way before 2010 btw, and before yours.

After some thought following our previous exchange a couple of weeks ago I decided to apply direct for a passport as an Irish citizen (which legally we both are under s.11 INCA) rather than go down the FBR route. I'm not in a desperate hurry, and I thought it must be worth a go. So as part of that application I've sent the RICA certificate along with everything else they want except my adoptive parent's Irish passport from decades ago, which never existed! I've sent birth certificates instead which clearly show that parent is Irish, but which you and I were thinking before might not satisfy them. Now I'm in the queue waiting to see what they say.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying, but you seem to be more positive and suggesting this might be enough? Or otherwise how are you thinking of getting round the non-existence of your father's ancient Irish passport even after you've got the RICA?

Congrats on progress so far anyway! It's great to have someone in a similar position - seems were relatively unusual.

Mr B
Moderator edit: contact email address removed.

[meself2]

Hi Corky100,

I can't private message you either. I've just checked my settings:
Under "User Control Panel", "Board preferences" there's an option that says "Allow users to send you private messages". I've got that set to "yes". I don't know what else to do!

You need to have at least 30 posts to message people. Try now.

[corky100]

If I understand your previous post history correctly, you were born by an Irish born mother and adopted by British parents. I am applying on the basis of my adoptive parents so I am in a completely different boat to yourself.