Inform GNIB if moving to Belfast?

[avro1959]

Hello folks -

I'm a Canadian with a stamp 4 IRP on the basis of my Irish spouse. The IRP was issued in 2019 and expires this summer.

Last year, we ended up moving to Belfast. Recently we flew out for a vacation (using DUB) and when I returned, I presented both my IRP and my UK residence card mentioning that we're heading to Belfast. The border officer asked me if I had informed the GNIB office that I moved to Belfast and I said I hadn't. He then advised that I should inform them, and proceeded to let me in.

I'm trying to understand the implications of informing the GNIB that I've moved to NI. I understand it's a requirement, but can anyone advise what exactly happens when I inform the GNIB office? Do they cancel my IRP? Our move to Belfast is only temporary (1-2 years max) and I really want to keep my IRP as I anticipate looking for employment in ROI as soon as we're done in Belfast.

[littlerr]

You are by law required to inform INIS of any permanent change of address. In addition, as part of your Stamp 4 conditions, you agreed that you will be a resident of the Republic of Ireland and you will not leave the country for more than 90 days in a year.

Failure of either may result in your residence permit being revoked and might cause long-term damage to your immigration history, especially that you are considering to move back to Ireland in a year or two.

Of course, many people do the same - they just try to conceal this when they pass the border. Sometimes the border officer finds out the truth, sometimes they don't.

Your biggest mistake here (in addition to failing to inform INIS of the address change) is that you showed both your BRP and IRP to the border officer. That is like automatically acknowledging that you have violated at least one country's residence requirement. If you show them only 1 card, either IRP or BRP card, it's likely that they would just rush you in without asking any questions.

Since you are a UK resident now and hold a BRP, you are no longer an Irish resident, and cannot use your IRP card to gain entry.

Whether you inform them now is irrelevant because your entry at the border will have been forwarded to INIS, but you should still write them a letter to formally inform them that you have moved to Northern Ireland with your Irish spouse per legal requirement.

You would have qualified for Irish citizenship this summer (and therefore no longer need an IRP or BRP card at all), had you informed INIS of your relocation to Northern Ireland at the earliest opportunity. Now this is not going to look good on you.

[Nala2021]

You have to look at renewing your IRP (going to the State and seeing what you can do, as even though this is online, you cannot do it from abroad), or see at how you can get a re-entry visa in order to get back into the State. I would advise a solicitor for both, for the main reason that you may not be able to get quick information by the authorities in time.

You seem to be a person, through your post, that wants to do the right thing. In my eyes, no one who wants to do the right thing has lost all chances. And personally, I do not think it's going to look 'bad on you'.

The law has flexibilities, and loopholes, and they are there for those who can see them, are open to them, and use them. At the very least, keep those 2 options open in your mind, and as I said, contact someone who can guide you through this transition between UK and the State. As you say, your transition is/will be temporary.

Write your story down straight, with actual dates and details in order to get the best out of potential advice.

Main thing to keep in mind is that you can only use the law, and rules and regulations, if you can see them clearly. And panic never assists in that.

[Obie]

You are by law required to inform INIS of any permanent change of address.

I accept that this is a Section 9 requirement, but my reading of that provision is that it applies to people who are within the jurisdiction of the state. The state cannot control people who are not within its jurisdiction. The state has no power to require that people who take up residence in Northern Ireland notify her of their change of address.

In addition, as part of your Stamp 4 conditions, you agreed that you will be a resident of the Republic of Ireland and you will not leave the country for more than 90 days in a year.

I am not aware of that. Which law or policy can one find that from, as it is certainly not in the 2004 Act.

Failure of either may result in your residence permit being revoked and might cause long-term damage to your immigration history, especially that you are considering to move back to Ireland in a year or two.

The minister may will choose to revoke the permission of this person, as that is within the power of the minister, but I do not think this man has really done anything that offends section 9.

Of course, many people do the same - they just try to conceal this when they pass the border. Sometimes the border officer finds out the truth, sometimes they don't.

Your biggest mistake here (in addition to failing to inform INIS of the address change) is that you showed both your BRP and IRP to the border officer. That is like automatically acknowledging that you have violated at least one country's residence requirement. If you show them only 1 card, either IRP or BRP card, it's likely that they would just rush you in without asking any questions.

Since you are a UK resident now and hold a BRP, you are no longer an Irish resident, and cannot use your IRP card to gain entry.

I am not sure if a person can be precluded from residing in 2 places.. If a person does international job in the state that requires them to work in two locations, and given the geographical proximity of the 2 jurisdiction, I will have some concerns, if that is indeed the law or policy.

Whether you inform them now is irrelevant because your entry at the border will have been forwarded to INIS, but you should still write them a letter to formally inform them that you have moved to Northern Ireland with your Irish spouse per legal requirement.

You would have qualified for Irish citizenship this summer (and therefore no longer need an IRP or BRP card at all), had you informed INIS of your relocation to Northern Ireland at the earliest opportunity. Now this is not going to look good on you.

Are you suggesting the implications of going to Northern Ireland lawfully will affect his chances of citizenship?


You are a very knowledgeable person, and I do not question your positive contribution lightly.

But I do have some reservations about some of the views expressed in this post..

[littlerr]

I accept that this is a Section 9 requirement, but my reading of that provision is that it applies to people who are within the jurisdiction of the state. The state cannot control people who are not within its jurisdiction. The state has no power to require that people who take up residence in Northern Ireland notify her of their change of address.

It applies to residents who are within the jurisdiction. So if the OP is still holding the IRP card and still intends to use it on future visits, they will need to comply with the rule. If the OP simply moves out and uses the BRP card from now on, there shouldn't be any issue with that.

I am not aware of that. Which law or policy can one find that from, as it is certainly not in the 2004 Act.

I agree that it cannot be found online. I have queried this a few times with INIS and BMU and urged them to put this onto their website. It is an inherent part of the requirements when a non-EU national takes up residences in Ireland - almost all stamps covered by domestic laws allow people to be out of the country for a maximum of 3 months, with the exception EUTR (6 months) and IIP (0/1 day). It is something that the immigration officer will need to explain to the applicant when they register for the first time, although I know in reality many officers don't bother that at all.

The minister may will choose to revoke the permission of this person, as that is within the power of the minister, but I do not think this man has really done anything that offends section 9.

I think using the IRP card when the OP has stated they don't live in Ireland can warrant a revoke. The card is issued on the basis that the OP and their spouse live in the said address in Ireland. OP has clearly indicated to the border officer that they don't live in that address, and that they don't live in the jurisdiction.

I am not sure if a person can be precluded from residing in 2 places.. If a person does international job in the state that requires them to work in two locations, and given the geographical proximity of the 2 jurisdiction, I will have some concerns, if that is indeed the law or policy.

I'm not saying everyone is completely precluded from doing so. The example you had there is usually covered by frontier agreement between the two countries. For example, UK requires non-UK/IE nationals to apply for a Frontier Worker Permit which will need them to declare a work address in the UK and a home address outside of the UK, and they return home at least once a week. I don't think the OP has done this - they are living and working in the UK completely.

Are you suggesting the implications of going to Northern Ireland lawfully will affect his chances of citizenship?

I'm suggesting that the ceasing of being a resident of the state, the misuse of IRP cards whilst not being a resident, and failure to declare the change of address may affect that.

In any case, it is a record that will be attached to the OP's naturalisation application and will raise some elbows. So yes I think it will 'affect the chances' but I'm not saying the application will necessarily be rejected solely based on these. I would take the view that this is a genuine misunderstanding of residence requirements and not intentional. (Of course, if the OP tells the officer that they do intend to keep the IRP card for another year or two, that is intentional...)

If I were the OP, I would set the record straight and send INIS a letter explaining that it was a misunderstanding and that they now live in the NI rather than Ireland. Previously people may have to surrender their IRP cards by sending it away to INIS but I don't think this is still the practice now - they are not even asking for IRP cards for naturalised citizens.

What I don't understand is why the OP is so keen of keeping the IRP card, especially that they are going to be away for a year or two. They would have got the naturalisation done in that timeframe, and even if that is not the case, the OP would just need to apply for a new IRP card when they decide to move back to Ireland. That would have caused no issues whatsoever, apart from a visit to the GNIB.

[Nala2021]

Judging from the state of the department after the Jones issue and COVID-19, I do not think that it is reasonable to believe that anyone would think they would definitely be done with their naturalisation application in 1-2 years. In this case, I do not think that it would be weird for someone to hold onto their card , or not even want to apply during these tumultuous years that the department has had.

[littlerr]

Judging from the state of the department after the Jones issue and COVID-19, I do not think that it is reasonable to believe that anyone would think they would definitely be done with their naturalisation application in 1-2 years. In this case, I do not think that it would be weird for someone to hold onto their card , or not even want to apply during these tumultuous years that the department has had.

Which is why the OP should NOT hold onto their IRP card. Their BRP card and proof of residence in Belfast would have allowed them to apply for Irish naturalisation as well, and it would not have caused any issue when travelling abroad and back. Holding onto their IRP card is what's causing OP issues here.

[Obie]

I'm suggesting that the ceasing of being a resident of the state, the misuse of IRP cards whilst not being a resident, and failure to declare the change of address may affect that.

I think misuse is a big word, i will not use it lightly.

What this OP did, does not appear to be abuse or misuse. He was frank and open to the Immigration Officer. With or without the IRP, he was entitled to enter the state enroute to the 6 counties.

He is a Canadian National (a visa exempt national) and he holds a UK BRP, and he was naive and innocent, never tried to conceal his intentions. Even if he was doing something wrong in not reporting his absence or move to the 6 counties,which I do not think is illegal at present, he genuinely thought he was not doing anything wrong, and for the reasons i have stated in my previous post, and the lack of clear legislative or policy provisions, i think I am having difficulty seeing any law broken, which will give the minister a rational basis to refuse a certificate of naturalisation to the spouse of an Irish national based on Character.

I will have to respectfully beg to differ with you on the misuse claim.

[littlerr]

I understand your viewpoint, and I agree that the legislations are not clear and not readily available. We may have a different interpretation on the word 'misuse'.

To set the record straight, I do not think the OP was trying to intentionally conceal any information. He made a genuine mistake and that's all it was, but as we all know, INIS and BMU do not always have the same view. Accidental misuse is still misuse and will need to be explained, as far as they are concerned (especially if the OP intends to file a naturalisation application later).

The way I read OP's original post was that the OP understands this is a requirement, and has been requested by BMU to do so, but still wants to weigh up pros and cons before actually doing it. That's what I don't understand. I don't think we have answered this question either - the IRP card won't be revoked had this been done properly - they would simply note that this is the date that the OP moved away, and ceased to be an Irish resident. The IRP is no longer valid.

A bad scenario, as Obie mentioned, is that the Minister decides to revoke the IRP card based on Section 9, if the Minister believes that the OP acted deliberately. That may cause more pain as it would void some or all of the previous residences and cause troubles in immigration history. I don't think it would happen though for such trivial issues.

As I said earlier, I don't think this reason alone would cause any naturalisation application to be rejected (unless the OP still doesn't inform INIS after being requested to do so), and I hope it won't, but it will inevitably raise some eyebrows. It may cause delays and INIS may request the OP to clarify on the matter.

Regarding the other suggestion made by Nala earlier in the post that the OP should seek to renew the IRP card or apply for a re-entry visa, neither is correct. The OP is not a resident and therefore cannot renew the IRP card. The OP is Canadian and doesn't need a re-entry visa either.

[avro1959]

Thank you for your comments everyone, I appreciate the helpful analyses and suggestions. Couple of points to make:

a) I'm not eligible to apply for citizenship this year because I was not physically in Ireland between 2019 and 2021. We moved to Dublin late summer 2019 - that's when I had my GNIB appointment and received my IRP. We were even planning to have a child once we moved to Dublin. What follows is a complicated story that involves flying back to Canada to wrap things up, encountering an unexpected illness, a surgery with 5-6 months recovery, a pregnancy, and an apocalyptic pandemic (at least that's how it felt in 2020).

We were finally able to leave Canada in the summer of 2021, at which point the opportunity I had lined up in Dublin disappeared. It was easier to move to Belfast as my employer had UK operations, so we moved there instead. Belfast has been pretty good to us so far and is definitely more affordable, but I digress. I have valid UK immigration permissions starting the summer of 2021, so I'm hoping to apply for Irish citizenship in the summer of 2024 when I complete 3 years.

b) I just wasn't aware I needed to keep GNIB / INIS informed of my movements. I didn't think that my permissions could be compromised by being outside the state, especially considering my stamp 4 IRP derives from my spouse. I know ignorance of the law isn't an excuse so I'll definitely have some explaining to do.

c) the reason I had to show the Irish border officer my UK BRP (aside from being honest) is because our baby isn't Irish (yet). Turns out because my spouse was born outside Ireland, we had to apply for the God-awful foreign birth registration which apparently takes 1-2 years to process. In the meantime our baby has to enter Ireland as a foreigner just like me, except baby doesn't have an IRP. So when we flew into DUB after our recent vacation, we had to show our UK BRPs. That's when the officer advised me to inform GNIB / INIS that I'm no longer residing in the state.

In any case, I'm going to follow your advise and write a letter to INIS about my move to Belfast and my patchy physical presence in the state. I'm hoping a written record will help prevent any consequences in the future when I apply for citizenship. I was under the erroneous impression that I could keep my IRP active while we are in Belfast, but based on your responses, it's possibly cancelled (or will be). It's a bummer because I really didn't want to have to deal with applying all over again at Burgh Quay.

[Nala2021]

Appreciate you taking your time to reply to all points, whether these comments by other posters were potentially erroneous or not.

However, your circumstances sound complicated. I wouldn't send anything written to INIS unless you had clear and professional advice regarding what to write, and under which context. It'll save you a whole of a headache in the future.

Sincerely wishing you all the best luck.

[avro1959]

However, your circumstances sound complicated. I wouldn't send anything written to INIS unless you had clear and professional advice regarding what to write, and under which context.

That's a good approach I suppose. Where would you suggest I look for professional advice? Are there any organizations that are known to provide such advice, or should I reach out to an immigration lawyer?

Thank you!

[Nala2021]

You can try the Free Legal Advice Centre (I think this is okay to post, as it's a service, and no one can say which solicitor you will speak to actually).

They have a pool of solicitors, and they may guide you from there, as in point you to some people. At least it's a starting point. One of their main interests is human rights law and access to justice. If you google personally, you will see the typical firms coming up, perhaps the most pricey ones first. The only thing to remember is that solicitors should really specialise in one thing at a time - so seeking out immigration ones would be good, or say human rights + immigration. You can also google the Law Society of Ireland and search for the name of the solicitor first so you can check that everything is legit.

Just make sure, if you can, to have your story simplified in your head first to keep things simple for you during any chats and to save money on time.

I would also do a time diagram of happenings, along with detail on the side to keep communication quick and clear.

[meself2]

You can also try MRCI as a good starting point, as you can email them your query.