Would it be possible????

[ciaramc]

Sorry bring up another subject.....(opening a new post)

Ok so my husband is planning on returning home to Morocco....within the next couple of months.....I will also leave early next year when my work contract is finished?

Ok so I was planning on relocating to the UK? I will travel early next year seek employment and find somewhere to live? I will then apply for a spouse visa for my husband? I know I have asked this before....and you adised me that it would be quite difficult....but under EU law(Irish citizen living and working in UK) my spouse has a right to travel with me? No? So if he applies from the British embassy in Morocco? What do you lot think!!! None of this is definite....but just options for me?

[charles4u]

Sorry bring up another subject.....(opening a new post)

Ok so my husband is planning on returning home to Morocco....within the next couple of months.....I will also leave early next year when my work contract is finished?

Ok so I was planning on relocating to the UK? I will travel early next year seek employment and find somewhere to live? I will then apply for a spouse visa for my husband? I know I have asked this before....and you adised me that it would be quite difficult....but under EU law(Irish citizen living and working in UK) my spouse has a right to travel with me? No? So if he applies from the British embassy in Morocco? What do you lot think!!! None of this is definite....but just options for me?

Well in this case I think its definately possible and he has a better and higher chance of getting the visa I guess, Showing all the prove u excersice a treaty or whatever is called. proves of ur work,statement of ur accts,marraige certificate which am sure will show u have being married for 8yrs e.t.c, I think with what u wanna do and having enough proves, he should get the visa

[MAKUSA]

I wouldn't do that if i was you. The Directive is very silent on rights of Non EEA nationals who are outside the EU. The Home Office are also a bunch of tossers. His chances are better within the EU.

[ciaramc]

Why would that be....I am still his spouse exercising treaty rights inthe UK? so they would have to consider me and my hubby under EU Law not National british law? Very confussed at the moment......about what to do...but I do not fancy having my husband travel to another EU country and start all over again....by the way charles we are not maried 8 years but 3 we have been dating 8 years!

[Wanderer]

Why would that be....I am still his spouse exercising treaty rights inthe UK? so they would have to consider me and my hubby under EU Law not National british law? Very confussed at the moment......about what to do...but I do not fancy having my husband travel to another EU country and start all over again....by the way charles we are not maried 8 years but 3 we have been dating 8 years!

The way I understand it, ciaramc is that if ur partner is illegal or outside EU then rightly or wrongly the HO will judge on UK immigration rules.

[ciaramc]

Forget the illegal....my husband will be applying from his home country...Morocco...outside EU....I will be living and working in UK...exercising treaty rights....therefore it falls under EU law....or are you saying because he is outside EU when applying it will be under UK law even though I'm an Irish citizen exercising treaty rights in the UK??? I thought that was the whole point of the directive that if I choose to travel and work in another EU country I have the right of my spouse accompanying or joining me with lets say without the hassle of using National law....have I completely misunderstood the directive?

[ciaramc]

Actually....my husbadn is not illegal anywhere...re the Metlock case....he has the right to reside with his EU spouse and has the right to enjoy the same rights as me....Italy just are not following the Directive by not issuing him with a RC......So he is ilegal in Europe as long as he is my spouse and I'm exercising my rights!

[Wanderer]

Forget the illegal....my husband will be applying from his home country...Morocco...outside EU....I will be living and working in UK...exercising treaty rights....therefore it falls under EU law....or are you saying because he is outside EU when applying it will be under UK law even though I'm an Irish citizen exercising treaty rights in the UK??? I thought that was the whole point of the directive that if I choose to travel and work in another EU country I have the right of my spouse accompanying or joining me with lets say without the hassle of using National law....have I completely misunderstood the directive?

But if he's applying from Morroco outside EU I think they'll still judge on UK rules. Can't be right reading it back but UK does seem to override in these cases.

Have u looked at Singh ruling - maybe u have but I've had a pub lunch, two Leffe's as well.....

[charles4u]

Why would that be....I am still his spouse exercising treaty rights inthe UK? so they would have to consider me and my hubby under EU Law not National british law? Very confussed at the moment......about what to do...but I do not fancy having my husband travel to another EU country and start all over again....by the way charles we are not maried 8 years but 3 we have been dating 8 years!

The way I understand it, ciaramc is that if ur partner is illegal or outside EU then rightly or wrongly the HO will judge on UK immigration rules.

This is what I meant also..if he applies from Morocco, the regulation will be from UK and he should get spouse visa not EEA family permit cus his not within the EU so not covered by the EU law.
So he can apply and should get the visa if his spouse is excercising her treaty rights in the UK.

[86ti]

See ECIS Chapter 3, Section 2.3.

[MAKUSA]

Why would that be....I am still his spouse exercising treaty rights inthe UK? so they would have to consider me and my hubby under EU Law not National british law? Very confussed at the moment......about what to do...but I do not fancy having my husband travel to another EU country and start all over again....by the way charles we are not maried 8 years but 3 we have been dating 8 years!

You are right, you would be considered under EU law (www.ait.gov.uk then search case no -2007 UKAIT 00070) but the point i am trying to make is that the HO are time wasters, they might want to frustrate all your efforts and think she might eventually give up on him (or if they find out that he has had an exclusion order in Italy (THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE- EXCLUSION ORDER), they might become unreasonable, dont know if they have implemented the Euro information systems on excluded persons, everything is getting high tec). If he goes he might get stuck.

[MAKUSA]

Why would that be....I am still his spouse exercising treaty rights inthe UK? so they would have to consider me and my hubby under EU Law not National british law? Very confussed at the moment......about what to do...but I do not fancy having my husband travel to another EU country and start all over again....by the way charles we are not maried 8 years but 3 we have been dating 8 years!

Ciramic, you would be starting all over again in the UK, i know it can be quite frustrating but, other EU countries are much quicker like Germany, in issuing your EEA RC, so you can call Germany a stepping stone to the UK or Ireland, trust me, i have seen cases like your Husband's.

[ciaramc]

Ok thanks all I get your point....but here in Italythe expulsion order he received before we married should no longer be valid, as he married a European citizen....and he received it in 2005? So we are hoping to remove it from his file....

Germany I have lived there before nice country....but Ireland is where I want to live as I'm done with being away from my family and I mention the UK only because I have lots of family and friends there.

Also we plan on starting a family soon and I don'tt hink I could cope with living in Germany awaiting a visa and then rc for my husband...alone and expecting....thats why we well I decided UK would be a better option....but only an option have not decided to go there....plan on getting to Ireland

[MAKUSA]

Ok thanks all I get your point....but here in Italythe expulsion order he received before we married should no longer be valid, as he married a European citizen....and he received it in 2005? So we are hoping to remove it from his file....

Germany I have lived there before nice country....but Ireland is where I want to live as I'm done with being away from my family and I mention the UK only because I have lots of family and friends there.

Also we plan on starting a family soon and I don'tt hink I could cope with living in Germany awaiting a visa and then rc for my husband...alone and expecting....thats why we well I decided UK would be a better option....but only an option have not decided to go there....plan on getting to Ireland

The exclusion order or deportation order is still valid until three years after it has been activated (meaning after he has left Italy) your marriage does not invalidate the order, it just means that under EU law it is 3 years, under most national laws it could be 5-10 years. But if he leaves the EU and with all the paranoia going around about bullshit terror and Islamic countries, i think it would be a grave mistake. A friend had the same exclusion order in the UK, he left and lived in france and got his residency, after three years he applied for the lifting of exclusion order but they refused the application, he took them to court and the court told the HO to lift the order (but that was because he always had the intention to go back to the UK). Your's is slightly different because you are not planning on going back to Italy when you leave but if the HO gets wind of it (YOUR SPOUSES PROBLEMS IN ITALY) then it would be another uphill task. I know you are sick and tired of upheaval but lets say you go to Germany, it would be a four month investment, if you get my drift or less than 4 months. Your next move is very important so think very hard.

[charles4u]

This was what I told u at first in the other room that he has to get an EU/EEA residence permit first which will qualify him fully as a family member and with this he will have less problem..getting a residence is quite not easy this days but the he shold get it latest in 3 months which is the maximum here in Romania but I got mine in 2 months.

Not having this will still make ur problems and issue keep mounting on each other, either try getting this or to my own view he can still apply from Morocco and get the UK visa as spouse if they happen to believe ur documents. But I advise u think of him getting the residence from one of the EU countries first and if u have no option them fall to the idea of the Morocco thing.

[Richard66]

What document does he have from Italy? PDS ex art. 19? The one they give valid for 1 year because he, as a family member, cannot be expelled?

I think you are just panicking, playing into the hands of the Italians. As for going to the UK... Remember, if they get wind that he has been expelled from Italy... And, for your knowledge, it has been confirmed by one of the moderators that immigration (and perhaps entry clearance) officers read these posts, so they might add two and two when they receive your application.

You would do better going to another EEA state, one where there are few foreigners and where they will give him a residence card double quick.

I mean no offence, but I believe you make it all seem worse than it actually is, principally when you contract a lawyer who does not seem aware of legal procedures. What that lawyer did is unexcusable and incompetent.

[ciaramc]

Richard yes your right I am probably panicking....but I have a right to, well I think so....NO he does not have a PDS thats what they won't give him we have been married 3 years and they have refused him all the time.....so he has no permesso.......ok so I get the drift about leaving Europe....I know all this.....but I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation.....

How can he travel to another EU state??? He only has a Moroccan passport issued by the embassy in italy....and he has no endorsements or anything on it!!!

What should we do travel together o say Spain....if they stop him they won't let him in.....he has nothing just wedding certificate and passport?

Yes our Lawyer was crap....we are going to go see another one Monday but hubby is adament that he does not want to appeal again....I understand that as the Italians are a joke!!! the don't respect EU law and they are blantly getting away with it!

I have to decide what to do....and we are running out of time!

[MAKUSA]

if you are going to travel, go via land it might take a few hours but you would get there (Eurolines)..Good luck

[Richard66]

But what do the Italians propose? They cannot deport him, they will not give him even the paper-thin pds ex art 19 which others get.

Go by land, but avoid the main line trains. Every time I have been to France by train policemen have come on board, asking for passports from chosen people. I would go north and get a regional train. Have your marriage certificate up to date (in Italy they are only valid for 6 months), the "plurilingue" is best, as it is written in French, Spanish, Turkish and so on.

Your husband needs to appeal! He cannot let the Italians say, "See? We were right!"

[charles4u]

Well being the fact of no checking within the SCHENGEN countries then I guess going by road will be the best or even rent a car.

Well another thing is immigrations coming to check up on the conversations here..men this is not easy at all

Everything is monitored

[Richard66]

Everything is monitored

Big Brother is watching you and you're not working!

[ciaramc]

I know that is my point the Italians can't deport him.....they won't give him his papers we are stuck in Limbo......the thing about leaving is that we are settled here it is not easy to just leave I have a work contract a contract for our apartment...family in Italy....I actually thought about this....

The Italians are driving me crazy they don't know what to do....they won't let my husband travel or work....they won't give him a permesso so he can't pay tax....yet they can't deport him....you are right about the expulsion order I read that article.....I have heard of this before....yes my husband does not want to do the second appeal....as he feels it is a waste of time....I have tried explaining that it is our right to get the permesso, but try telling that to someone who feels the whole system is against them....and hasn't seen there family in years....while his wife travels to see her and his all the time....its hard but we are going to see another lawyer on Monday but we only have 10 days to appeal not much time!!!

Nightmare

[Ben]

ciaramc,

There's a lot of scaremongering in this thread.

Let's take a look at Article 32 of the Directive:

Article 32
Duration of exclusion orders
1. Persons excluded on grounds of public policy or public security may submit an application for
lifting of the exclusion order after a reasonable period, depending on the circumstances, and in any
event after three years from enforcement of the final exclusion order..

Your husband's exclusion order does not blacklist him for three years, from benefiting from the provisions of the Directive, as has been insinuated. A fresh application can be made after a reasonable period. It is open to interpretation. Ask yourself, would a judge in the ECJ find it unreasonable, if he were found to be resubmitting an application now?

..which has been validly
adopted in accordance with Community law,..

Interestingly, has your husband's exclusion order been validly adopted in accordance with Community law? I have an inkling that it hasn't.

..by putting forward arguments to establish that there
has been a material change in the circumstances which justified the decision ordering their
exclusion.

Ok, so the reason your husband was given an exclusion order was because, at the time, he had no right to reside in Italy. Is that correct? Clearly, since your marriage, there has been a material change in the circumstances which justified the decision ordering his exclusion.

The Member State concerned shall reach a decision on this application within six months of its
submission.
2. The persons referred to in paragraph 1 shall have no right of entry to the territory of the Member
State concerned while their application is being considered.

No right of entry. He would have to leave Italy in order to attempt to enter Italy.

Your husband's case is open and shut.

My advice, ciaramc, is to live where you both want to live. I think you're happy in Italy, but see Ireland as your ultimate place of residence. Moving to the UK, Germany or Spain (or anywhere else), would undoubtedly involve more applications, more waiting, more hassle.

[MAKUSA]

ciaramc,

There's a lot of scaremongering in this thread.

Let's take a look at Article 32 of the Directive:

Article 32
Duration of exclusion orders
1. Persons excluded on grounds of public policy or public security may submit an application for
lifting of the exclusion order after a reasonable period, depending on the circumstances, and in any
event after three years from enforcement of the final exclusion order..

Your husband's exclusion order does not blacklist him for three years, from benefiting from the provisions of the Directive, as has been insinuated. A fresh application can be made after a reasonable period. It is open to interpretation. Ask yourself, would a judge in the ECJ find it unreasonable, if he were found to be resubmitting an application now?

..which has been validly
adopted in accordance with Community law,..

Interestingly, has your husband's exclusion order been validly adopted in accordance with Community law? I have an inkling that it hasn't.

..by putting forward arguments to establish that there
has been a material change in the circumstances which justified the decision ordering their
exclusion.

Ok, so the reason your husband was given an exclusion order was because, at the time, he had no right to reside in Italy. Is that correct? Clearly, since your marriage, there has been a material change in the circumstances which justified the decision ordering his exclusion.

The Member State concerned shall reach a decision on this application within six months of its
submission.
2. The persons referred to in paragraph 1 shall have no right of entry to the territory of the Member
State concerned while their application is being considered.

No right of entry. He would have to leave Italy in order to attempt to enter Italy.

Your husband's case is open and shut.

My advice, ciaramc, is to live where you both want to live. I think you're happy in Italy, but see Ireland as your ultimate place of residence. Moving to the UK, Germany or Spain (or anywhere else), would undoubtedly involve more applications, more waiting, more hassle.

BENIFA YOUR COMMENT ABOUT SCAREMONGERING IS VERY LAUGHABLE AND IGNORANT,IT BORDERS SO MUCH ON ARROGANCE. YOU RELY ON SOLELY ON THE DIRECTIVE, THE DIRECTIVE HAS SAID A LOT OF THINGS BUT VARIOUS MEMBERS HAVE CHOOSEN TO IMPLEMENT THE DIRECTIVE IN THEIR OWN WARPED WAYS. CASE LAWS ARE VERY IMPORTANT WHEN LOOKING AT IMPORTANT IMMIGRATION DECISIONS. SO NO SCAREMONGERING, JUST GIVING THE LADY A LOT OF INFORMATION, THE ULTIMATE DECISION LIES WITH CIARAMC AND HER HUBBY, SO QUIT TRYING TO HYPE THINGS UP.

[Ben]

Wow! Cool it First-Class Moron, you'll give yourself a hernia with all those caps.