Husband of EU citizen exercising treaty rights/Italy

[charles4u]

This is the main question....Has anybody tried and gain entry successfully in either UK or IRELAND?

Cus this 2 countries seems to have different interpretation to that EU directive.

[Ben]

This is the main question....Has anybody tried and gain entry successfully in either UK or IRELAND?

I think your real question is, "Has any visa-required family member tried and gain entry successfully in either UK or IRELAND?". Several of my non-EU family members have successfully gained entry in to and residence in Ireland - but they are non-visa required. So, this may not be of use to you.

Cus this 2 countries seems to have different interpretation to that EU directive.

In what way, Charles?

[charles4u]

For the first one..you are right and that was what I meant..as any family member who is normally a visa required e.g Nigerian.. tried it and succefully gain entry.

The second one is this....this is for UK.

The Home Office interpretation of these provisions
As indicated above, the Home Office has interpreted EU law to mean that family members can
travel within the EEA with or to join an EEA national if, but only if, the family members have
first entered the EEA under the immigration laws of one of the individual EEA countries.
The following is provided by way of example. A British citizen travels to India and marries an
Indian national. She returns to the UK. She travels to Germany in order to work. She would like
her husband to join her in Germany. However, he has never been to Europe. According to the
Home Office interpretation of EU law, her husband would need to satisfy German immigration
law in order to join her in Germany. Alternatively, she could return to the UK and he would need
to satisfy UK immigration law in order to join here there.
http://www.ilpa.org.uk/infoservice/Info ... ionals.pdf

What I think the UK is trying to say here, on any ground the country of destination immigration rules or requirments still have to be followed which means if UK is saying EEA family permit is needed then its needed. But the ECJ as clearify this but still no changes or cancellation of the EEA family permit.

[Ben]

The second one is this....this is for UK.

The Home Office interpretation of these provisions
As indicated above, the Home Office has interpreted EU law to mean that family members can
travel within the EEA with or to join an EEA national if, but only if, the family members have
first entered the EEA under the immigration laws of one of the individual EEA countries.
The following is provided by way of example. A British citizen travels to India and marries an
Indian national. She returns to the UK. She travels to Germany in order to work. She would like
her husband to join her in Germany. However, he has never been to Europe. According to the
Home Office interpretation of EU law, her husband would need to satisfy German immigration
law in order to join her in Germany. Alternatively, she could return to the UK and he would need
to satisfy UK immigration law in order to join here there.
http://www.ilpa.org.uk/infoservice/Info ... ionals.pdf

What I think the UK is trying to say here, on any ground the country of destination immigration rules or requirments still have to be followed which means if UK is saying EEA family permit is needed then its needed. But the ECJ as clearify this but still no changes or cancellation of the EEA family permit.

Thanks Charles, I have read the document you have linked to. However, I don't understand the point you are making..

In light of the Metock case, the UK must allow issuance of EEA FPs to relevant family members who themselves are currently outside the EEA. Previously, I believe, the UK only issued EEA FPs to people who were already in the EU, since their interpretation of the Directive was as you have quoted.

However, your case is that you are already in the EEA and legally resident in Romania, and so the judgement of Metock is not related to your circumstances.

Your issue, if I recall correctly, is that you wish to move to the UK to join your Romanian spouse, and thus require an EEA FP (according to UK regulations), and this is problematic for you because an application for same has previously been refused. Right?

[Richard66]

It does not really change the situation. You can have all the right in the world to go through immigration, but no one will let you reach it. There is a legal term for this sort of situation; I wish I could remember it. This is the problem to solve. My wife was denied boarding, no matter how many documents we showed the airline. Not even a letter from the European Commision made them chasnge their mind, not even the UK EEA Regulations! We are still to hear from a visa national who made it.

[Ben]

It does not really change the situation.

Does it not? Is the UK still not issuing EEA FPs to family members who are currently outside the EEA? I'm sure I read that they'd stopped this practise..

You can have all the right in the world to go through immigration, but no one will let you reach it. There is a legal term for this sort of situation; I wish I could remember it. This is the problem to solve. My wife was denied boarding, no matter how many documents we showed the airline. Not even a letter from the European Commision made them chasnge their mind, not even the UK EEA Regulations! We are still to hear from a visa national who made it.

I remember reading about your case a while back, Richard. Your beef is with the travel carriers, who have wrongfully denied your wife boarding, despite showing evidence that she is able to enter the UK, in accordance with the Directive. Is that right? I agree with you, it is a problem to solve. It's not really related to this thread though.

[MAKUSA]

It does not really change the situation.

Does it not? Is the UK still not issuing EEA FPs to family members who are currently outside the EEA? I'm sure I read that they'd stopped this practise..

You can have all the right in the world to go through immigration, but no one will let you reach it. There is a legal term for this sort of situation; I wish I could remember it. This is the problem to solve. My wife was denied boarding, no matter how many documents we showed the airline. Not even a letter from the European Commision made them chasnge their mind, not even the UK EEA Regulations! We are still to hear from a visa national who made it.

I remember reading about your case a while back, Richard. Your beef is with the travel carriers, who have wrongfully denied your wife boarding, despite showing evidence that she is able to enter the UK, in accordance with the Directive. Is that right? I agree with you, it is a problem to solve. It's not really related to this thread though.

OF CAUSE IT IS RELATED TO THIS THREAD, CIARAMC WANTS TO MOVE TO IRELAND OR UK AND TO GET THERE SHE WOULD NEED TO BOARD WITH HER HUBBY BECAUSE THE HOPELESS ITALIANS ARE INCAPABLE OF FOLLOWING THE SO CALLED DIRECTIVE. HER HUSBAND HAS THE SAME PROOF (MARRIAGE CERT, PASSPORT, EU SPOUSE AND TICKETS) WHICH ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIVE SHOULD ALLOW TRAVEL BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE, YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE MAN.

[Ben]

Goodness, First-Class Moron, someone's cage has been rattled today!
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 890#206890

[Ben]

I remember reading about your case a while back, Richard. Your beef is with the travel carriers, who have wrongfully denied your wife boarding, despite showing evidence that she is able to enter the UK, in accordance with the Directive. Is that right? I agree with you, it is a problem to solve. It's not really related to this thread though.

Richard, I've re-read my post (quoted), and I'm sorry if I came across brusque. I didn't mean to all, but I can see how might have come across.

I was (and am) in agreement with you that travel carriers need to be better informed (to say the least). I just don't think that leaving Italy is the way forward for ciaramc and her hubby. I think you agree with that too.

[charles4u]

First BENIFA..from what I understand UK issues spouse visa for family members outside the EU and introduce this so called EEA family permit for family members within the EU and they said somehow its not a visa its just a permit for family members and also as u know, The EEA family permit is free while the spouse visa is not. So my point there is UK interpreted it to be each country's immigration rules as to be follow(if am right).

For CIARAMC..the best thing is leaving Italy to find an option, am not saying its not going to be solved in Italy but for how long? one should spend 5yrs making applications ? I dont just understand this..apeal takes 6months and what if the wife goes to labour?

Anyway for airlines I just dont know what to say abt them cus somehow its not their fault as they are given intructions from each country's immigration rules or embassy report.

[ciaramc]

Ok I have been following and commenting on this forum for years.....


I understand what Ireland and the Uk are doing they are interprepting the Directive wrong we as European citizen exercising our treaty rights are entitled to travel visa free through Europe....


In light of the Metock case, the UK must allow issuance of EEA FPs to relevant family members who themselves are currently outside the EEA. Previously, I believe, the UK only issued EEA FPs to people who were already in the EU, since their interpretation of the Directive was as you have quoted.

As quoted above I believe this is exactly what I was saying is that even if my husband is outside Europe, the UK must issue a EEA FP as I his wife will be exercng treaty rights???

You are all right it would be best to stay in Italy but I have been trying to convince my husband of this.....well I'm going to see a new lawyer on Monday...and since we only have a couple of days to file an appeal.....hope for the best....i want to fight the Italians they can't get away with this....I already sent an online complaint to the EU commission....is there anything else I can do?

[brownbonno]

ciaramc,

The Uk never refusinf EEA family permit to spouse of EEA nationals.But they have placed conditions/requirements for the issuance of such a permit.They could term your marriage to be sham and available case place the onus on you to prove that the marriage is not sham.possible options
-Relocate to neighbouring countries(swiss,Austria,France) and communte to your work(Italy) from them.There your husband can make a new application.
-Board a train from France to the UK,there you will have the Border/immigration guys to sort your husband out according to their operational instructions.

Take a second look to the AKrich case and see if your husband can pass the acid test.
Cheers.

[charles4u]

CIARAMC....everybody here wish the best for you and ofcourse advising u in their own best knowledge, If you think u can cope and handle it for as long as possible then stay in Italy.

According to what I understand from Brownbonno,Richard,and First-Class Moron we r all say to avoid delays and waste of more time u should move to any neighbouring country to get the residence for him. Thank God u r in a Schengen country (no border checkings) which means God still gave u a good option by not making u guys be in Romania or Bulgaria or even outside EU where their is not way out except VISA.

Fighting and making cases with them is surely possible but takes time but ofcourse if u wanna have ur first or lets say second child in Italy then no problem and as for ECJ ..mennnnnnnn thats a long way down..Richard as his case for months now and same as mine but no news yet and I guess urs is just new which will definately be next yr.

[ciaramc]

Hey everyone quick update....I have got a responce from Brussels....they want more info from me and also want to know what Italian Authorities are involved in my case looks like things are moving....I will try put up th letter they sent me minus names of course!!! I just have to convert it from PDF. It looks really promising....theey told me that the Italians are in the wrong not issuing my husband with an Italian permit!!!!

[charles4u]

Hey everyone quick update....I have got a responce from Brussels....they want more info from me and also want to know what Italian Authorities are involved in my case looks like things are moving....I will try put up th letter they sent me minus names of course!!! I just have to convert it from PDF. It looks really promising....theey told me that the Italians are in the wrong not issuing my husband with an Italian permit!!!!

Wow good news, we would like to know in full details what they said and the steps they wanna take in assisting you and ur husband...

I think the MATOCK case is working everywhere this days which says EU family member can get a residence as a family member even if he or she is ilegal or has overstayed is entry visa...

This is what me and Richard is talking about in another room..family members of an EU citizen should be automatically getting EU family member residence regardless of where they stay. Instead of using national law for some and EU law for some... which is curse of many problems now.

[Richard66]

Instead of using national law for some and EU law for some... which is curse of many problems now.

Unfortunately it is up to national governments to decide if EU legislation is to apply or not to their own citizens who have never exercised treaty rights.

Richard, I've re-read my post (quoted), and I'm sorry if I came across brusque. I didn't mean to all, but I can see how might have come across.

Ah, Benifa, you were aplogising above for being brusque. I don see where you were, so no need to!

[Richard66]

ciaramc! As you see, you were right all along! I think this document will prove very useful for you. If you could get it in Italian it would make good reading attached to a new request for a residence card.

You might want to turn the scales and ask the Italian government for compensation. I believe you will be given thousands.

People in Italy are wondering what your news is. Maybe you will tell them something?

[ciaramc]

Richard

Don't worry I will let them all on TUTTO know this news, as soon as I get it translated!!! I will also attach it to this site as soon as I convert it! I would like some of your opinions!

[ciaramc]

Hello all this is the resxponce from the EU??? What do you think

Thank you for your letter concerning the issue of a residence permit in Italy for your husband.
You are an Irish national and have been living and working in Italy since 2002. You where married to a Moroccan citizen in July 2006, and consequently proceeded to apply for a resident permit for him. You claim that the Italian authorities refused to issue him with such a permit in April 2008 and that they founded their refusal on the fact that your husband had previously resided illegally in Italy (without a valid visa).
As far as Community law on free movement is concerned, you have exercised the right to move and reside freely in an EU Member State other than your own.
Article 18 of the Treaty stipulates that every citizen of the Union shall have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in this Treaty and by the measures adopted to give it effect.
Article 5 of the Directive 2004/38/EC provides that family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa1 in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 when residence is sought within the "Schengen" area2. No family reunification visa is needed. Morocco is listed in Annex I ofregulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 among the countries whose nationals are required to be in possession of a visa when crossing the external borders ofthe "Schengen" area.
Family members ofUnion citizen who are third country nationals can apply for residence card according to Articles 7 (2), 9 and 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. The host Member State shall only require presentation of a valid passport, a document attesting the existence of a family relationship and the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining.
I Judgement of 14 Apri12005, case C-157/03 Commission vs Spain. 2 States in the "Schengen" area: Belgium, France, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Austria, Greece, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Slovenia, Malta, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.
Commission europeenne, B-1 049 Bruxelles / Europese Commissie, B-1 049 Brussel -Belgium. Telephone: (+32-2) 299 11 11. Office: LX 46 -01/083. Telephone: direct line (+32-2) 296.56.10. Fax: (+32-2) 297.95.86
Article 10 (1) of Directive 2004/38/EC states that the residence card shall be issued no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application.
The European Court of Justice has held that a Member State is not permitted to refuse issue of a residence permit and to issue an expulsion order against a third country national who is able to furnish proof of his identity and ofhis marriage to a national of a Member State on the sole ground that he has entered the territory of the Member State concerned unlawfulll.
On the basis of Article 15 (1) read in conjunction with Article 30 (2) of the same Directive, your husband should have been informed, precisely and in full, ofthe grounds on which the refusal to issue him with a residence card was based, unless this is contrary to the interest of State security.
In view of the above, the Italian authorities may be acting contrary to the provisions of the Directive by requesting your husband to apply for a family reunification visa instead of an entry visa, by refusing your husband's application for a residence card as a family member of a Union citizen, by asking for supporting documents other than those listed in the Directive , by not delivering a decision in less than six months and by failing to inform you precisely and in full of the reason of any administrative act restricting the right offree movement and residence.
I invite you to inform me precisely which Italian authorities are involved in your case (Comune, Questura, Prefettura ) as well as your husband's full contact details (name, address, etc). This would permit my services to follow up the case with the relevant Italian autorithies.
As you have not indicated your choice concerning confidentiality, the Commission is not authorised to disclose your identities where it makes representations to the national authorities. Should you consider that authorising the Commission to disclose your identities in its contacts with the national authorities would be preferable as it would allow the Commission and the national authorities to refer to the particulars of your case, please indicate that to us in writing.
Yours sincerely,

[Ben]

Light at the end of the tunnel is just about in sight, ciaramc!

A very good sign that the Italian authorities are not only due a well deserved slap on the wrists, but also that your husband's Residence Card is imminent.

Get cracking on your reply, send it via EMS tomorrow, and with a but of luck you may be spending Christmas in Ireland after all!

[charles4u]

No doubt his getting his residence , wow u fought for this and atlast you are getting what you want. Thank God and keep you strenght up !!!

best of luck ...and congrats to your husband in advance for his RESIDENCE CARD FOR FAMILY MEMBER OF AN EU......lol

[ciaramc]

Hey all,

Thanks

I'm going to have to send it on Monday....its a holiday this weekend and our lawyer has alot of the docs....I need to send!! So patience....I really feel ready for a battle!!! And hopefully this will set the ball rolling for other people in Italy in simlar situations!!! I will keep you all updated!

[Richard66]

Great this! It sounds like business! Let us hope it all works!

Maybe I should use the same tactics with the UK authorities and the EEA FP...

[charles4u]

Great this! It sounds like business! Let us hope it all works!

Maybe I should use the same tactics with the UK authorities and the EEA FP...

Well Richard that is a kinda good idea but will it work?

Which EU authority did she really contact?

[Richard66]

We have contacted:

The Italian Difensore Civico
The vice-president of the European Commission
The European Parliament
The European Commission
The Ombudsman
The Italian MEPs
and now Baroness Ludford, London MEP

I am about to write another letter to the new Vice-President of the Commission.

Have you heard that we are expecting a baby and it might be stateless, because we cannot go to the UK (there is a discussion here on the subject). We could apply for an EEA FP, but, being pregnant, I am very much afraid they will decide we are going there for the child to be born — and refuse it. What do you think?